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Nems

If the Master Levels were a megawad, what do you think the level order should be?

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So, last night after playing some Quake 2 mods, I decided to delay going to bed (because sleep is for the weak) by surfing the internet. Doing a bit of surfing on Doomworld, I came across this:

http://www.cultmovies.dk/mlfaq102.htm

As someone who loves and owns The Master Levels, it was a nice little read. I didn't know the history or motivation behind the development of it and Maximum Doom.

The one thing that caught my eye was that there was about why fans haven't compiled these 21 levels. It mentioned legal issues and stuff, which I can understand.

I got to thinking, though: if it were legal to compile the Master Levels into a megawad, what levels do you think would take which slot and why?

I'll compile my own list of what I think later. Considering it's been ages since I last played The Master Levels and the fact I'm tired from writing an article review, I'm not fit to make an informed opinion on this just yet. :P

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Why it wasn't made into a megawad is beyond me. A little while ago and did put all the wads together just because I didn't like loading them up individually.

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There is another thread about someone doing this, though their angle is more "how on earth do I actually do it?" than the order, but the guy does get to that once he figures out XWE.

I questioned whether the multiple MAP07s could be made to work in Vanilla without DEH codepointers. From Tom Mustaine's interview, it seems only Sverre's MAP07 and MAP15 need to go in the right spot. I've only played a couple of these, so I may be wrong. If you used MAPINFO and put things in ZDoom format, it'd be alot easier.

PSX Final Doom includes some of the easier levels in an order, and Henrik's page you linked to ranks them by difficulty. Logic dictates just order easy to hard as best you can.

Reading that page, the levels weren't really made to be placed in any order. Rather, each author has stuck to his own theme. I'd be more inclined to merge each author's work into one cohesive mini-episode. This would be good for stuff that is released freely but has some levels as parts of ML, like Dr Sleep's Dante-themed levels or Sverre's Cabal levels.

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I did play a wad that was a compilation of the Master Levels into a single wad. I don't know who made it, or where to get it now, but I downloaded it because there was a Skulltag Survival Cooperative server hosting it.

According to the map art at Doom Depot, The level order is as follows:

01 - Attack
02 - Canyon
03 - The Catwalk
04 - The Combine
05 - The Fistula
06 - The Garrison
07 - Titan Manor
08 - Paradox
09 - Subspace
10 - Subterra
11 - Trapped on Titan
12 - Virgil's Lead
13 - Minos' Judgement
14 - Bloodsea Keep
15 - Mephisto's Maosoleum
16 - Nessus
17 - Geryon
18 - Vesperas
19 - Black Tower
20 - The Express Elevator To Hell
21 - Bad Dream

I don't know if this is the official order, or if there really is one, it may just be coincidence that maps 1-12 are in alphabetical order. But I guess this is the preferred order to play them in.

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The Playstation and the Xbox both had versions of the master levels that were in a episode format. Between the two of them only one map is left out (MEPHISTO.WAD). The solution they tooks was to order them more or less alphabetically, but they do differ slightly.

If I recall correctly I merged them into a mod myself using the Playstation version as the dominant list. I placed MEPHISTO.WAD as the secret level as neither the playstation nor the xbox version utilized the secret exit in TEETH.WAD. I've even wrote a Java application to do this merging (which would be a legal way of distributing the master levels as a single wad).

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Super Jamie said:

There is another thread about someone doing this, though their angle is more "how on earth do I actually do it?" than the order, but the guy does get to that once he figures out XWE.

I questioned whether the multiple MAP07s could be made to work in Vanilla without DEH codepointers. From Tom Mustaine's interview, it seems only Sverre's MAP07 and MAP15 need to go in the right spot. I've only played a couple of these, so I may be wrong. If you used MAPINFO and put things in ZDoom format, it'd be alot easier.

PSX Final Doom includes some of the easier levels in an order, and Henrik's page you linked to ranks them by difficulty. Logic dictates just order easy to hard as best you can.

Reading that page, the levels weren't really made to be placed in any order. Rather, each author has stuck to his own theme. I'd be more inclined to merge each author's work into one cohesive mini-episode. This would be good for stuff that is released freely but has some levels as parts of ML, like Dr Sleep's Dante-themed levels or Sverre's Cabal levels.


:p

I think two of those Map07 maps used the 666 tag, Dr Sleep's one was just a Map07 because it was the 7th Canto in his series. I put that project on hold since it was driving me mad, but I got quite a good bit of progress done. I put in the rest of the Dante levels, as well as the Cabal levels, and added the two Doom 3 Xbox-only secret levels in as the secret levels to get a full 32 level megawad. I also replaced the star sky in the Dante levels with a more detailed picture. Basically I just have some MAPINFO tweaking and getting Sewers.wad's Doom1 textures put into the wad somehow, then its just level ordering.

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If the Master Levels were a megawad, they'd have resembled a chopped down Final Doom too much. I think id Software wanted to release them as separate wads to be used with -file, for once.

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heh I guess I'm just not too picky, as I've always played Master levels using the original launcher and engine with dosbox. It took some time to get it working properly, but it greatly improved my knowledge of how to use dosbox.

I have a single batch file that does all my vanilla related doom. Check it out if you like.

http://www.pastebin.org/8816

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Ragnor said:

I put in the rest of the Dante levels, as well as the Cabal levels, and added the two Doom 3 Xbox-only secret levels in as the secret levels to get a full 32 level megawad.


That's pretty cool, but the sad fact is that most of the freely-available Cabal levels are terrible. Maps 1 through 3 were designed for deathmatch and don't work well single-player. Cabal4 was Kvernmo's first wad, with all the awkwardness that implies. Cabal6 doesn't have anything going for it besides dumping in a ton of Cacodemons, and Cabal7 was just made to draw a pretty picture in the automap. The only one of the bunch that I enjoyed was "We who are About to Die," which despite also being made with deathmatch in mind is pretty fun.

Kvernmo's Master Levels were some of my favorite of the bunch, though.

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I don't even own a copy of MLfD2 (=[) and I would like to get a copy, but I heard Steam jacks up DOOM files, so how would I get this game without getting screwed up files?

Also, everyone talks about the extra levels that come with DOOM 3, but no levels are to be found when I search through the games files. Where's All the Data?

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Breadrobber said:

I heard Steam jacks up DOOM files

Then you've heard FUD. The versions available on Steam are identical to the fully-patched IWADs you'd have gotten any other way. have the same MD5 sums as the last versions that were sold in shops.

(The only one that needs to be patched is HEXDD.WAD because the only version of Hexen: Deathkings of the Dark Citadel that was sold in retail had bugs which requires a 1.1 patch, available from idgames, and I guess it didn't sell enough to merit a second publication with corrected IWADs. The fault here is not Steam's, but Raven's.)

There are valid reasons to dislike Steam, no need to invent fantasy ones.

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About those Cabal levels, in the interview with Sverre on Doomworld's 5 Years, he says theres superior versions out there, but I cant find them. I'd use those if I could, unless I already HAVE those. I havent played any of them seriously yet, aside from Image if Evil (This was on a shovelware disc I bought back in the day, the map image blew me away. The level was pretty good in gameplay, but this might be an outdated opinion from back when I had Doom95)

Breadrobber said:

I don't even own a copy of MLfD2 (=[) and I would like to get a copy, but I heard Steam jacks up DOOM files, so how would I get this game without getting screwed up files?

Also, everyone talks about the extra levels that come with DOOM 3, but no levels are to be found when I search through the games files. Where's All the Data?


Are you referring to the Xbox ones I mentioned?
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/E1M10:_Sewers_%28Doom%29
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/MAP33:_Betray_%28Xbox_Doom_II%29
You can download them freely, if these are the ones you want.

And I got The Master Levels off Steam, theres nothing wrong with the Wad files. There just a little hard to find in a pile of directories :p
_____

As for any progress on it, I need to figure out how to get the Doom1 textures that were used in Sewers into the wad, an external music wad that uses the PSX Final Doom tracks (There were some tunes that only played on specific Master Levels)as well as how to get the right tune playing on the Xbox bonus levels.

I'm having some second thoughts about the Xbox bonus levels, due to their quality, but I'm keeping them in, since theres no real other option for secret levels it seems. I also might move Betray into the main levels, because Bad Dream is designed to be a secret level, its currently set to Map16 to allow the Xbox levels to be secrets together. I could just make it 33 levles, since its already ZDoom only due to Mapinfo, but that would leave me with an open level slot.

I'm also going to have to play every level the original way, alone, to get a good view of level difficulty. I want to put the Cabal and Dante levels in the right sequence, but it might break gameplay transition further. What to do..

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Jim Flynn also made some more Titan levels that are available on his site and the /idgames archive. There's a story connecting them, though the Master Levels FAQ says it's unclear whether the Titan Master Levels are supposed to be a continuation; there's no story in their txt files, unlike with the free WADs.

I've only taken a brief look at the levels, so I can't speak for their quality. Concerning Flynn's official levels, I thought Titan Manor was convoluted while Trapped on Titan was fun. Also, I liked Betray's plasma gun emphasis, though the level has some questionable design elements.

It's interesting to hear there might be further revisions of the Cabal levels out there, though I wouldn't expect them to be significant improvements.

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Betray was more of a surreal experience for me, teleport mazes, lots of colourful liquid floors, random nazis, I felt it was a good level with quite a bit of potential, which is why I nominated it and Sewers for the 1994 tune-up thing.

So the Titan maps seem to be a series too? Looks like I might indeed be making this outside a 32 level thing. I'll try emailing him and ask if theres a set level order he had for them

Also Dante's Gate and Crossing Acheron are definitly "in". Played both remakes, and they gave off such a strong "Master Levels" aura that reminded me of the PSX Final Doom's Master Levels. Hell, they even feel like official levels.

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Double post!

Played all the other levels in Dr Sleep's series, Virgil's Lead is the easiest, and SHOULD be the first in the series. Dante and Acheron are BRUTAL in comparison, and they go before Virgil? Nessus and Vesperas have bugs where theres items inside closets that you cant get unless you jump into the alcove (Or in some cases strafe into the wall and MAYBE just manage to get it). The Nessus example is the only secret in the level, and its unattainable, so I'll have to lower the closets a bit. Theres also a couple of monsters that are stuck in a few levels.

From the other Master Levels ive done, or played to near completion (When I forget to save and die near the end, I'm not doing it all again just for the difficulty test run!) It's impossible to keep the series together and preserve difficulty flow with everything else I'm afraid.

Currently the only level positions set in stone are Attack for level 1, Virgil for level 2 or 3, and Elevator for 15 to be able to use the level 15 secret exit special. Bloodsea Keep will have to be level 7 for the tag 666, Mephisto's tag 666 will have to MapInfo'ed, as the level is an Icon of Sin variant, and no way is THAT going in the seventh slot.

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