ZDoom (Doom in Doom format)... why so limited? [DB2]

ZDoom (Doom in Doom Format) is really limited in comparison to ZDoom (Doom in Hexen Format), but the latter sucks. Hexen Format's usage of doors and lifts are terrible, and unintuitive, where as Doom Format's is easy. Why can't there be a combination of the two, taking ideas from both and putting them into one... called ZDoom.

If in Doom Format I should be able to do the following: Transfer Height, Create Horizon Lines, Use Block Player Only line types, Make Forcefields, Make Skyboxes, Make Sector fog (without scripts), Make Mirrors (without scripts), Cause Earthquakes (without scripts), and make Autosave points (without scripts). Why can't I do this? Why are the best features in Hexen format, but the worse user-ability in said format. I don't like how making doors in Hexen format takes more steps than it should. I shouldn't have to set a sector tag for a door repeatable, ITS NOT A SWITCH!

tl;dr: Why is Doom in Doom format so limited? Is my question, and point of this post.

Antidote said:

Why is Doom in Doom format so limited? Is my question, and point of this post.

Because it's there for compatibility reasons only. The only drawback I can see in Hexen format is that tags are limited to byte values while you can have thousands in Doom format. This didn't keep people from making complex and also really big maps with it.

Btw, did you check out Eternity? It's pretty much what you're asking for, ie. Doom format with all those extensions.

The answer is simple: Because it can't do many things due to the format's limitations. Much of what ZDoom can do needs the parameterized specials or the thing z-coordinate. As a result no effort whatsoever has gone into developing Doom format any further than what it was 10 years ago.

So why work with a map format that's a complete subset of another one? It makes no sense.

Even though some things can be done (everthing that was taken from Boom, mirrors, horizons, slopes all are supported) documentation is virtually non-existent because no serious ZDoom mapper uses this format anymore!

So the bottom line is, that if you are unwilling to learn it's not the map format that sucks - it's you that fails it.

BTW, prepare for the next step on the learning curve: UDMF! In the future Hexen format will probably suffer the same fate that Doom format for ZDoom editing already has: It's getting left behind.

LogicDeLuxe said:

The only drawback I can see in Hexen format is that tags are limited to byte values while you can have thousands in Doom format. This didn't keep people from making complex and also really big maps with it.

That's one of the points where UDMF comes in.

Btw, did you check out Eternity? It's pretty much what you're asking for, ie. Doom format with all those extensions.

From what I gathered Eternity's long term plans go the same route as ZDoom's, i.e. UDMF with Hexen format specials. So for advanced mapping Doom format is a dying breed. Eternity is a great example to show where the limits are: Much of it works only by using very ugly workaround (like Extradata which needs to be specified separately from the map.) because the map format has no means to allow it natively.

Antidote said:

ZDoom (Doom in Doom Format) is really limited in comparison to ZDoom (Doom in Hexen Format)

Why do you even think there is a DiH format?

Antidote said:

but the latter sucks. Hexen Format's usage of doors and lifts are terrible, and unintuitive, where as Doom Format's is easy.

So, selecting one package (i.e., "DRDoorOpenWaitClose" from a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge list of preformatted commands is easy, while selecting an effect (i.e., "Door_Open") and ticking a couple of parameters (repeatable or not, how it's activated, how long it waits, how fast it moves...) is terrible and unintuitive.

Gotcha. Hope you don't want to do a line effect that was never needed by the Doom developers so it's impossible.

Antidote said:

Why can't there be a combination of the two, taking ideas from both and putting them into one...

Because it would be useless?

Antidote said:

If in Doom Format I should be able to do the following: Transfer Height, Create Horizon Lines, Use Block Player Only line types, Make Forcefields, Make Skyboxes, Make Sector fog (without scripts), Make Mirrors (without scripts), Cause Earthquakes (without scripts), and make Autosave points (without scripts). Why can't I do this?

Because these line types do not exist in Doom format.

Antidote said:

Why are the best features in Hexen format, but the worse user-ability in said format.

It's not worse, it's better. You only say that because you refuse to learn. Case in point:

Antidote said:

I don't like how making doors in Hexen format takes more steps than it should. I shouldn't have to set a sector tag for a door repeatable, ITS NOT A SWITCH!

You don't need to. If there's no tag, the door is the back sector.

Antidote said:

tl;dr: Why is Doom in Doom format so limited? Is my question, and point of this post.

The DiD format is limited because it was created by id software for id software. When they wanted a new feature, they simply added it. They didn't think much about the theoretical needs of modders 15 years later who would want to do more. The engine they made was sufficient for their needs, and when it wasn't they simply pushed back the limits a bit rather than removing them.

Raven software changed greatly the map format so as to allow scripting. That allowed to do effects impossible in the Doom format, and required to rework the system from "laundry list of set immutable commands into reduced list of parameterizable commands".

This is much better and much more intuitive, unless you argue it's more intuitive to have an effect be only available as a switch but not as a walkover trigger...

Gez said:

The DiD format is limited because it was created by id software for id software.

To be fair, quite some limits were removed with Boom (generalized types) and it underwent some extensions as well (scroll types, friction, colormaps, translucency etc.).
But today, Hexen format made it pretty much obsolete, and it remains just there for compatibility.

One thing that I never understood about Doom in Hexen format was how to make platforms/lifts that lower/raise instantly (they're easy to make in Doom in Doom format). Could they be made with Platform Generic Change?

Either use the instant movement types or set the speed high enough so that the movement is instant. Of course the old hacks still work, too.

Antidote said:

If in Doom Format I should be able to do the following: Transfer Height, Create Horizon Lines, Use Block Player Only line types, Make Forcefields, Make Skyboxes, Make Sector fog (without scripts), Make Mirrors (without scripts), Cause Earthquakes (without scripts), and make Autosave points (without scripts).

It's been a long time since I even tried, but some of those things can be done with Boom editing extensions which are supported by Zdoom in Doom format maps.

However, it does seem silly to moan about a wide variety of features not being available in one format when they are available in another format and where the only things that are different when editing the two formats are as a result of allowing that variety of features to exist in the first place.

Seriously, DiH format is not more complicated - it's just different. If you'd learned DiH first and then tried to transfer to DiD format, you'd have been frustrated by not being able to find things like the repeatable flag etc.

Graf Zahl said:

Either use the instant movement types or set the speed high enough so that the movement is instant. Of course the old hacks still work, too.

What are the instant movement types? I couldn't find any info on the Platform Generic Change line type in the zdoom wiki. When I set speed to 255, it still isn't instant.

Alright, so the point of my post now after reading the replies is simple: what format is best, and easy to learn, and doesn't take a million steps to make a door. Is it UDMF? How can I make maps in UDMF with DB2?

Is there a UDMF overview I can (features, differences, etc) read? Also I don't want to touch Eternity. While is may be a great engine/source port, I'd rather stick with ZDoom-compatible wad making.

Edit: found in DB2 ZDoom (Doom in UDMF format). So ignore that question.

Antidote said:

Is there a UDMF overview I can (features, differences, etc) read? Also I don't want to touch Eternity. While is may be a great engine/source port, I'd rather stick with ZDoom-compatible wad making.

It's the same as ZDoom in Hexen to a large degree. Important differences are:

- tags are not limited to 0-255.
- special arguments are also no longer limited to 0-255
- you can set line IDs directly (the biggest failure of Hexen was to omit such an option.)
- you have direct access to all line flags. In Hexen format some can only be set indirectly.
- linedef trigger types can be combined. A line can be set up to be triggered by both walking over and using it, for example.
- Lots of new map options. They should be available on a separate tab in the property dialogs for lines, sectors and things.

For an overview of the new features, you can have a look at the specs documents you can find here: http://zdoom.org/wiki/UDMF These are not real docs though so the descriptions are brief. But they are complete and list all available options.

Antidote said:

Alright, so the point of my post now after reading the replies is simple: what format is best, and easy to learn, and doesn't take a million steps to make a door. Is it UDMF?

UDMF adds even more features, so if you struggled with Hexen format you'll probably hate it. You'd have more luck building a time machine and going back to ask id to add all your favourite features to the game right from the start. And it's really not that hard to make a door.

I didn't mean to say it was hard, it just takes a couple of more steps than DiD does, and its a bit more confusing. Such as the difference between "Door Open", "Door Close", and "Door Generic", oh and the wildcard of "Door Animated" which I had still have no clue what that does.

Antidote said:

oh and the wildcard of "Door Animated" which I had still have no clue what that does.

Because you haven't played Strife?

Antidote said:

Such as the difference between "Door Open", "Door Close", and "Door Generic",

Door Open and Door Close should be obvious. They are the regular door types for everyday use.

Door Generic is to handle Boom's generalized doors and logically contains a lot of confusing options (just like its Boom equivalent...)

Antidote said:

oh and the wildcard of "Door Animated" which I had still have no clue what that does.

This is a Strife feature. It opens a door not by raising the sector's ceiling gradually but by playing a texture animation. If you don't have Strife you can also see it in action in Simplicity's ROTT bonus level. To my knowledge this is the only mod to ever use this feature.

It's all documented on the ZDoom Wiki. I didn't know what animated doors were either, but a quick search brings me to this article, which tells me it's a Strife feature.

//edit: beaten to it, heh.

Antidote said:

I didn't mean to say it was hard, it just takes a couple of more steps than DiD does, and its a bit more confusing. Such as the difference between "Door Open", "Door Close", and "Door Generic", oh and the wildcard of "Door Animated" which I had still have no clue what that does.

Oh my good! FOUR different effects! If only it could be as simple as Doom where there is only D1 Door (Blue) Open Stay and D1 Door (Red) Open Stay and D1 Door (Yellow) Open Stay and D1 Door Open Stay and D1 Door Open Stay (fast) and DR Door (Blue) Open Wait Close and DR Door (Red) Open Wait Close and DR Door (Yellow) Open Wait Close and DR Door Open Wait Close (also monsters) and DR Door Open Wait Close (fast) and GR Door Open Stay and S1 Door (Blue) Open Stay (fast) and S1 Door (Red) Open Stay (fast) and S1 Door (Yellow) Open Stay (fast) and S1 Door Close Stay and S1 Door Close Stay (fast) and S1 Door Open Stay and S1 Door Open Stay (fast) and S1 Door Open Wait Close and S1 Door Open Wait Close (fast) and SR Door (Blue) Open Stay (fast) and SR Door (Red) Open Stay (fast) and SR Door (Yellow) Open Stay (fast) and SR Door Close Stay and SR Door Close Stay (fast) and SR Door Open Stay and SR Door Open Stay (fast) and SR Door Open Wait Close and SR Door Open Wait Close (fast) and W1 Door Close (fast) and W1 Door Close Stay and W1 Door Close Wait Open and W1 Door Open Stay and W1 Door Open Stay (fast) and W1 Door Open Wait Close and W1 Door Open Wait Close (fast) and WR Door Close Stay and WR Door Close Stay (fast) and WR Door Close Stay Open and WR Door Open Stay and WR Door Open Stay (fast) and WR Door Open Wait Close and WR Door Open Wait Close (fast)! It is SO. MUCH. BETTER. !.

Thanks everyone.

Gez said:

Oh my good! <block text>

Actually in DB2, using DiD, there is a thing called "Generalized Effects", which I use all the time. Its like a "wizard" for door effects/lifts/stairs/etc. If that was in UDMF (which it isn't) it would be much easier.

EDIT: Ooops! Just realized I double posted! Sorry!

Err...generalized line specials were the Boom team's attempt at creating something comparable to Hexen's generalized specials within the Doom format. It's basically the same thing but with slightly less power given to you...

Regarding UDMF, is there a possibility in the future that the text format gets mixed with Hexen format only where necessary, so as to save space? Say what you like about hard disk sizes, but that's irrelevant when the space left for wads is still little. Maybe this doesn't matter for ZDoom which supports compressed files, but other ports don't have ZIP compatibility, and due to UDMF, wads will get unnecessarily large. If at it, how about making editors write UDMF code with as little white space as possible?

printz said:

Regarding UDMF, is there a possibility in the future that the text format gets mixed with Hexen format only where necessary, so as to save space? Say what you like about hard disk sizes, but that's irrelevant when the space left for wads is still little. Maybe this doesn't matter for ZDoom which supports compressed files, but other ports don't have ZIP compatibility, and due to UDMF, wads will get unnecessarily large. If at it, how about making editors write UDMF code with as little white space as possible?

I can't even begin to wrap my mind around what a huge clusterfuck a mixed binary/text map format would be.

It would be an issue telling the engine where it's text and where it's binary, right.. And do that carriage return linefeed pair on condition. But I hope Eternity adds ZIP support in the mean time!

Did anyone even consider implementing UDMF without ZIP support? Those really should go well together.

Reminds me of Dark Forces, it does use text format maps, which was rather unusual back then. But they are uncompressed, which makes them pretty big. At the same time, the cut scene videos have very low framerates.

Antidote said:

Actually in DB2, using DiD, there is a thing called "Generalized Effects", which I use all the time. Its like a "wizard" for door effects/lifts/stairs/etc. If that was in UDMF (which it isn't) it would be much easier.

Generic_Door, as Graf said above.


Look, I'll let you in in a BIG and carefully-guarded secret: ZDoom only interprets the Hexen/UDMF specials. Everything from a Doom-in-Doom, Heretic-in-Heretic, or Strife-in-Strife format map is converted into the Hexen format when the map is loaded. The converter is called xlat, and it works from text files that tells it how to change each Doom-format line into a Hexen-format line and its arguments and flags. It is even possible to provide your own custom xlat transformation files and specify them in MAPINFO, so you could for example make one to play a map from Amulets & Armor.

Anyway, here is the list of functions that all generalized Boom types are translated into.

LogicDeLuxe said:

Reminds me of Dark Forces, it does use text format maps, which was rather unusual back then. But they are uncompressed, which makes them pretty big. At the same time, the cut scene videos have very low framerates.

What??? That never was expected, that I can make new DF maps without using a map editor... Anyway UDMF has the benefit of allowing users to use the most basic level editor possible, to create the purest maps... Notepad.

printz said:

What??? That never was expected, that I can make new DF maps without using a map editor... Anyway UDMF has the benefit of allowing users to use the most basic level editor possible, to create the purest maps... Notepad.

Meh, Notepad. Even edlin is better. At least it doesn't insert two or more CRLF when it wrap words around the the screen. (Any real editor would not even confuse display on the screen with writing data to the disk.)

You know? That's why. It's like using the WinDEU of text editors...

printz said:

Regarding UDMF, is there a possibility in the future that the text format gets mixed with Hexen format only where necessary, so as to save space?

Absolutely *NOT*! Frankly, I'm not concerned with HD space. What matters is downloadable file size and there UDMF is ca. 30-50% larger than binary - and any attempt of a mixed format would only make matters worse because the resulting mess could neither be optimized as binary nor as text data so you probably end up with something even larger. Furthermore, one of UDMF's goals is to remove all limits so your suggestion would be rather counterproductive (not to mention a major burden for potential implementers.)

LogicDeLuxe said:

Did anyone even consider implementing UDMF without ZIP support? Those really should go well together.

Nobody ever considered forcing unnecessary limitations like this into the specs. In the end it's all up to the ports and what they want to support. If Quasar doesn't want Zip support in Eternity it's his choice. UDMF is just a minimal specification that intentionally does not impose any restrictions on the port for using it.

By the way, I just wanted to point out that I was wrong when I said you could make instant raise/lower lifts in doom in doom format. At least, the lifts I always thought were instant were actually just turbo speed. SORRY