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eargosedown

How much can I do legally?

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Looking for opinions on those that are familiar with the Doom copyright.
Basically, a couple of friends and I have been pondering over a project for a long time now, and we've decided to finally start to work on it; We're planning on doing a Doom total conversion with the Valve Source engine. We're making up completely new models/textures/etc, but sticking with a heavy theme of the original Doom. We also planned to have one or two original Doom/Doom2 level remakes, but the rest of them just 'themed' around the idea. We also planned to use elements of the plot for the mod (Including a prelude to the teleport of hell).

my questions are as follows for those that can answer:
First, what *can* we rip? Rip is a really bad term, but it's the only one that comes to mind at the moment. We plan to 'remake' a lot of stuff (The models, the weapon models, the sounds, the textures) but there's just some things that are obviously ID's and theirs alone (IE: Map design). I know Classic Doom 3 mod got away with a lot of these things, so what would be allowed?
Second, for stuff that qualifies as ID's and would require permission; Is it worth trying to get? It'd be a free mod obviously, and not a direct copypasta. Would sending a letter to them over at ID asking if we can please take such and such for such and such reason be worth the trouble, or would it just hit the garbage can?
Finally, for those interested in tracking our progress/getting involved, should a topic be made on Doomworld in a section? if so, where would it be suggested?

Thanks in advance.

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If you were to directly use any of the resources (graphics, sounds, music), you'd probably have to somehow require the appropriate WAD in order to release it.

There's been plenty of "remakes" on other engines and they're totally fine. Check out Classic Doom 3 for probably arguably the best one!

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eargosedown said:
First, what *can* we rip? Rip is a really bad term, but it's the only one that comes to mind at the moment. We plan to 'remake' a lot of stuff (The models, the weapon models, the sounds, the textures) but there's just some things that are obviously ID's and theirs alone (IE: Map design). I know Classic Doom 3 mod got away with a lot of these things, so what would be allowed?

You'd be making a derivative of their designs (the digital level plans), so if they don't like it they have the right to put an end to your project. Unlike the Classic Doom 3 project, this is an add-on for a game by another company. Lower profile remakes of individual levels and the like are often ignored, but your project seems to want to imitate all or a big part of their game, so it might well call their attention.

If you do something that's more vaguely DOOM-themed, such as a space marine against the forces of hell but with your own levels and monsters, you'd have less trouble and more room for originality.

Second, for stuff that qualifies as ID's and would require permission; Is it worth trying to get?

I doubt they'd give you permission. They'd have to have some special reason to do it. What could that be?

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Honestly I would just do it.

id Software are pretty open with their IP, as evidenced by Doom 2D (the platformer), Doom: Fall Of Mars (the Diablo-like game), DoomRL (the roguelike), etc etc. Even if it's not directly related to an id Software product (as Classic Doom 3 is) it likely still encourages sales of the original Doom series.

The Doom community respects id's copyright by not allowing direct ripoffs of their stuff to prosper. id respects the community by being quite free with derivative works. I've never heard of them issuing a Cease and Desist, even for PWADs which blantantly ripoff/mix Doom 1 and 2 IWAD maps and other resources like Antichrist Doom*.

As long as you don't go selling what you make and passing it off as your own original creation, I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.


* this is what Quasar is talking about below

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Quasar, read your PM.

Super Jamie said:
as evidenced by Doom 2D (the platformer), Doom: Fall Of Mars (the Diablo-like game), DoomRL (the roguelike), etc etc.

Heh, those are pretty poor examples. They're low-key stuff compared to a project recreating the whole game for a rival franchise.

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Interesting.
I guess I might as well contacting them, see what happens. If they decline, I could just keep it private as a pet project. Not like it's going to be done anytime in the next year lol.

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LogicDeLuxe said:

You could modify the engine to read the IWAD, so your mod can only be used when in possession of the original game.


Still, he would need full permissions to use the original theme and base part of his artwork and ideas on Doom's. The "requires an IWAD" is little more than icing on the cake and it has been so badly violated by PWAD authors and certain source ports and editors I won't name, that it is really worse than nothing, in the sense that it will needlessly complicate things.

For what I see, you can use the sound effects (there's even a hi-quality SFX project, based on the premise that many sound effects were in the public domain to begin with).

Since you'll probably go with a 3D engine, you'd better start checking what permissions the models and graphics for full 3D ports with hi-res textures such as Risen 3D have.

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Maes said:
Still, he would need full permissions to use the original theme and base part of his artwork and ideas on Doom's.

He has them, more or less, if it requires id Software's game. It would still be a DOOM add-on, just using some engine not based on the Doom engine source code.

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I thought, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, that the Classic Doom 3 mod got a fair amount of leeway because it only used the shareware episode as a base for its content. I know there was an interview with one of the team members that said the remaining episodes were not done mostly because of declining interest, but I remember the shareware argument coming up a couple times over at doom3world.

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If your project requires the IWAD then I think you can use whatever resources you want.

If you don't want your project to require the IWAD, I honestly wouldn't recommend asking id for permissions. It's very doubtful that they'll give you any permissions not already given by Doom's EULA, and, in fact, newer employees who are less familiar with those old licenses may tell you that you shouldn't do things that the EULA actually allows.

(So, just stay under the radar.)

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I agree about not bothering id professionally. They're a business, they have more important things to do. If they have an issue with it, they'll come to you.

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I'm going to try as best I can to incorporate the IWAD as a required file (Just as a "check if present, if not, close") for the mod simply out of respect, I wouldn't want to hold back anything from such a great company.

But aye, as I said, this is mostly just a hobby of myself and a few others. Considering how long the modeling and the texturing of just the monsters/player alone are going to take, let alone weapon development and AI developing for the game, this will probably take quite some time.

I reckon to just try as best I can to take every step I can to help promote ID through the software, and if the mod somehow gets popular enough when it's done that they take issue with it, we would be able to take it down.

Thanks for the info fellas =)

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Maes said:

For what I see, you can use the sound effects (there's even a hi-quality SFX project, based on the premise that many sound effects were in the public domain to begin with).

wrong

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leileilol said:


What about this, then? Everybody can/could download it, at least until now.

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I got the "not PD" part, but still, under what license/premise did the guy who made the "hi quality pack" put it for public download?

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Maes said:

I got the "not PD" part, but still, under what license/premise did the guy who made the "hi quality pack" put it for public download?


I assumed it was the LHNN license, ie. Let's Hope Nobody Notices.

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eargosedown said:
Probably because it's a completely remake and not an alteration,

A modification of DOOM's sounds in PWAD form should be legal, while using the stuff from the library directly would not be, without buying the library. The license of the library may set its own restrictions on how the sounds may be used, such as not being usable outside the products of the licensee.

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I suggest, if you're certain and confident on doing this ambitious project, or alternatively when you have the framework done and just need the aesthetics, to do the letter writing to id Software, asking them for permission, and doing so until they deliver useful clear info. If by then they still say no, then don't abandon the project, but make another TC about humans, space stations and hellish monsters. Avoid any hints about it being originally a Doom clone in the final creation. Being original is cool.

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printz said:

I suggest, if you're certain and confident on doing this ambitious project, or alternatively when you have the framework done and just need the aesthetics, to do the letter writing to id Software, asking them for permission, and doing so until they deliver useful clear info. If by then they still say no, then don't abandon the project, but make another TC about humans, space stations and hellish monsters. Avoid any hints about it being originally a Doom clone in the final creation. Being original is cool.


Aye, I believe this is what I'm going to end up doing with the project. Considering we're doing all the framework on models/textures/etc, it should be easy enough to minorly alter the models we produce and re-texture them to make them original.

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andrewj said:

No. That's a Quake 2 mod that were canceled because of similar reasons. Though one of the reasons I recall were cause they used ripped material from the other games.

They later made a version of it called SOG (Some old games) I never tried that though.

Later there were Generations Arena for Quake 3. But it were careful to step around any legal issues by simply having the important IP stuff already inside Q3. Doomguy, Quake guy, Plasmagun BFG. etc.

I think the mod I talked about was called "Reborn". It was to be a SP mod.

EDIT: Ah, Nick already answered. :p

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kristus said:

They later made a version of it called SOG (Some old games) I never tried that though.


I've played it, and i liked it. Unfortunately, their site at planetquake is gone. But i have the files somewhere on one of my harddisks.

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