Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
ryaxnb

Questions and opinions about source ports or the Virtue of BOOM

Recommended Posts

So: I have several post like things about source ports, but posting all of them would waste space and not attract enough posts to any of them. So here's a compilation of sorts. It's intended to be responded to, criticized, etc. I take criticsm well but i do like a good debate :).

First Topic: why PRBOOM Rules, or why can't other source ports do this?
PRBOOM is GPL, so that's good. But the best thing about PRBOOM is the sheer portability of it. And the fact that it cares about compatibility while adding more new features, and the fact that PRBoom is fairly well documented and has a good OPENGL renderer. Now, why don't other ports do these things? Most ports barely have a functional linux port. PRBOOM runs on Mac, UNIX, BSD, consoles, etc. You don't have to port it yourself, just provide a portable architecture and pure GPL (or pure BSD) code so others can port it. GZDOOM in particular has a windows centric architecture, which is really disappointing. And so does Risen3d, EDGE, etc. Having a DOS version available is cool too, for DOSemu, DOSBOX and other dos virtualization solutions, as a last resort or a quick alternative to ports. Although no PRBOOM exists for DOS, it is based off of MBF, which works on DOS.
Compatibility of other ports is also disappointing. I can understand it for ports like GZDOOM, but why can't Doomsday, Risen3d, or EDGE (for example) get compatibiltity with DOOM.EXE right? They could just borrow PRBOOM patches with a little modification, after all the code is open source.
Overall, PRBoom and the related PRBOOM+ are my favorite ports.
Second topic: underappreciated ports and port features:
GZDOOM's room-over-room gets my top pick for underappreciated port feature. Also, not enough maps are made for GZDOOM in general.
EDGE gets my top pick for underappreciated port: DDF is remarkable. It's like DECORATE, but probably better. DDF should be in every port. All the other components of EDGE work fairly well as well.
As for other underappreciated Port Features:
Texture and such swap of GZDOOM. Really nice, but few replacements exist :(. Could make GZDOOM look similar to Doomsday, but few people take advantage of it.
PRBOOM's friendly monsters. Way cool. :)

Final topic
BOOM phase II
Has anyone considered making a port that works like Boom Phase II? The idea sounded really neat! What features of Boom phase II have popped up elsewhere, for real, and what port has the maximum amount of BOOM phase II planned features?

Share this post


Link to post
ryaxnb said:

PRBOOM is GPL, so that's good. But the best thing about PRBOOM is the sheer portability of it. And the fact that it cares about compatibility while adding more new features, and the fact that PRBoom is fairly well documented and has a good OPENGL renderer. Now, why don't other ports do these things? Most ports barely have a functional linux port.

What makes you think the other GPL ports are less portable? There are Doomsday packages available for Windows, Mac OS X, Ubuntu and Debian. There is currently a bizarre issue affecting compilation under BSD but thats by the by.

Compatibility of other ports is also disappointing. I can understand it for ports like GZDOOM, but why can't Doomsday, Risen3d, or EDGE (for example) get compatibiltity with DOOM.EXE right? They could just borrow PRBOOM patches with a little modification, after all the code is open source.

How is GZdoom in a different category to the other ports you mentioned here? All the ports you listed can and should be in the same category because they all change the underlying game(s) substantially.

Second topic: underappreciated ports and port features:

Eternity and its portals.

Share this post


Link to post
ryaxnb said:

GZDOOM in particular has a windows centric architecture, which is really disappointing.

GZDoom runs on Windows and Linux. ZDoom runs on Windows, Linux and Mac.

Share this post


Link to post

Eternity is by FAR the most under appreciated port in my opinion, and pretty much lists all the features of the "Dream port" you were listing above.

Share this post


Link to post
MP2E said:

Eternity is by FAR the most under appreciated port in my opinion

Eternity seems pretty popular around here nowadays. If/when Essel's vaporware project gets released, you'll see it has already attracted many talented modders.

Share this post


Link to post
Gez said:

Eternity seems pretty popular around here nowadays. If/when Essel's vaporware project gets released, you'll see it has already attracted many talented modders.

I certainly hope so, Vaporware does indeed look awesome. I have the impression that a lot of people are going to stick with GZDoom and ZDoom because of KDiZD and the like, though :(

Share this post


Link to post

ryaxnb said:
Compatibility of other ports is also disappointing. I can understand it for ports like GZDOOM, but why can't Doomsday, Risen3d, or EDGE (for example) get compatibiltity with DOOM.EXE right?

Compatibility is relative. You mean a compatibility that even allows demos from other versions to work? That's a lot of work, and more so if you add extra features. But most ports are largely compatible with Doom and Boom, as most of the levels designed for those two engines will work fine under them.

Note that PrBoom is not really that much more Doom compatible than other ports unless you enable a bunch of Doom compatibility settings or, most effectively, apply the corresponding compatibility level (2-4, depending on the game.)

They could just borrow PRBOOM patches with a little modification, after all the code is open source.

PrBoom/+ already do this. Why should other port devs bother to partially do or somehow insert (which requires work) what PrBoom/+ (and Chocolate Doom) do best? The amount of compatibility each port has pretty much suits the development goals of the coders and users involved. More would just detract from what they really want, due to the effort and time required.

Share this post


Link to post

I do not mean demo compatibility. I use PrBOOM for that. I mean the option to play like doom, at least to an unaided human-eye, maybe not pixel perfect. ZDOOM fails at many tests related to how DOOMish it is, as does EDGE and Risen3d.

Share this post


Link to post
ryaxnb said:

I do not mean demo compatibility. I use PrBOOM for that. I mean the option to play like doom, at least to an unaided human-eye, maybe not pixel perfect. ZDOOM fails at many tests related to how DOOMish it is, as does EDGE and Risen3d.

PrBoom fails at many tests related to the option to play Heretic, Hexen, Strife, Chex Quest 3...

I mean, sure, it would be a better world if all the source ports were exactly the same, with the exact same behavior in the exact same conditions, so that everyone would be very happy... But unfortunately, we have a great diversity in design goals and capacities, which means that people are, unfortunately, required to go through great effort to find which port is the most to their taste, and after this arduous task of picking and choosing then they also have the duty to whine constantly about the other ports not being clones of their favorite one.

ZDoom is about playing practically Doom-engine game, removing limits and bugs, and adding a lot of additional features. Such design goals will require compromises here and there. For example, trigonometry is subtly different and you have some gameplay altering effects as a result of such changes. For instance, ZDoom offers freelook, so you can aim up and down, as a result you can fire projectiles up or down much more often than in Doom (where it only happens if autoaim deems it needed), which means that Doom's 2.5D code could get away with being simplistic but ZDoom cannot: in Doom, the horizontal speed of a projectile is always the same, and the vertical speed is added onto it to reach the target with autoaim; this means that the higher or lower you shoot, the faster your projectile actually goes. ZDoom has a more accurate approach, but that means that, if seen only on the horizontal axis, a projectile fired at an angle will move slower than in Doom.
It's subtle, but it's enough to desync a demo.

Share this post


Link to post
Gez said:

which means that people are, unfortunately, required to go through great effort to find which port is the most to their taste, and after this arduous task of picking and choosing then they also have the duty to whine constantly about the other ports not being clones of their favorite one.



I think that's the biggest problem of all - and the one which I really don't understand: Why do some people think that everything has to be playable with their one and only port of choice and if something requires a different one, instead of using that correct one start complaining?

The only reason I can accept for not using one specific port would be if it was causing compatibility issues with the hardware.

Share this post


Link to post
ryaxnb said:

I do not understand the development aims of the various ports and wish to tell you all how things work, get it wrong, and say how they should be. Please correct and optionally ridicule me.

Share this post


Link to post
ryaxnb said:

GZDOOM's room-over-room gets my top pick for underappreciated port feature. Also, not enough maps are made for GZDOOM in general.
EDGE gets my top pick for underappreciated port: DDF is remarkable. It's like DECORATE, but probably better. DDF should be in every port. All the other components of EDGE work fairly well as well.

It's not exactly GZDoom's fault, but a lot of the maps which are made for it generally have worse gameplay than "normal" maps, as the mappers just set their goals to use the new features for the sake of it, rather than making strong maps which use the new features to improve the maps' gameplay.

As for EDGE, IMO its biggest weakness are the controls; I've always found its controls (especially the mouselook) more awkward than prboom+'s or ZDoom's.

Share this post


Link to post
Jodwin said:

It's not exactly GZDoom's fault, but a lot of the maps which are made for it generally have worse gameplay than "normal" maps, as the mappers just set their goals to use the new features for the sake of it, rather than making strong maps which use the new features to improve the maps' gameplay.


That's because most people who do that are inexperienced and believe they "need" them to make their maps. There was a rather lengthy debate about this on the Skulltag forums regarding the no 3d floors in competitive modes issue.
A bunch of nub mappers argued that they could use them to make great and spectacular new DM maps. Of course, if you can't make a decent map without them, you're not gonna make any better with them.

Share this post


Link to post

ryaxnb said:
I do not mean demo compatibility.

Who said you did? I told you in what way compatibility modes are more convenient than separate settings, regardless of whether one is recording or not.

ZDOOM fails at many tests related to how DOOMish it is, as does EDGE and Risen3d.

Under tests backed and confirmed by an international scientific consensus and ratified by the DOOM Community Authority, am I right?

It's a pretty subjective thing. They don't fail for people who want to play with jumping, decals, GL effects, complex weapon mods, or whatever. Really failing is when a level set fails to work, like some stairs don't rise or the like.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×