movie soundtracks in doom

oh well, that's a question i always want to ask, since in various modern maps (like tribute, ultimate torment and torture, etc.) i found the usage from various movie score (like matrix reloaded or scarface)...

This could be legal?

i dont think so. since you cannot make money from PWADS then i doubt they are breaking the law.

though they are lazy and a waste of hard-drive space, no matter how well the music fits the level.

This is of course not legal! You can bet if the record companies knew of this they'd nuke these WADs. Fortunately they don't.

Ultraboy94 said:

i dont think so. since you cannot make money from PWADS then i doubt they are breaking the law.

though they are lazy and a waste of hard-drive space, no matter how well the music fits the level.

They are breaking the law. But because they're not making money off of them, they can't be taken to court for it. But the copyright owner can send out a "cease and desist".

Ultraboy94 said:

though they are lazy and a waste of hard-drive space, no matter how well the music fits the level.

Now now now, I would hardly call any map of Deus Vult II 'lazy'.

Sure. Good luck taking on some Joe Ass Random for using a T2 midi in a 1994 PWAD none cares about. I'm sure the "returns" will amply cover a lawyer's minimum 1-hour fare[/sarcasm]

I think this is more like using some stuff directly from the I, Robot CD as Tormentor did for UTNT.

kristus said:
But because they're not making money off of them, they can't be taken to court for it. But the copyright owner can send out a "cease and desist".

The authors or file hosts can be taken to court, but usually aren't because, as Graf noted, the copyright owners aren't paying attention or because they judged such action to be more costly than beneficial. Since the add-ons are free of charge, they would get little, if any, reparations. Although, if I'm not mistaken, they can force the defendant to pay for legal costs. Cease and desist letters are usually sent before taking any action, to try to achieve the same result without much effort. When they take action it's usually as a deterrent, to make their presence and attention known and to discourage people in general from meddling with their copyrighted stuff. From what I know, the archive had two cease and desist letters from corporate lawyers, from MTV and Disney, but it didn't go past that because Ty made it clear people should not use their work in particular, as well as discouraging non-permitted work in general.

Maes said:

Sure. Good luck taking on some Joe Ass Random for using a T2 midi in a 1994 PWAD none cares about. I'm sure the "returns" will amply cover a lawyer's minimum 1-hour fare[/sarcasm]

HAR HAR HAR HAR

Not to mention that, in comparison to the likes of P2P file sharing and the like, the distribution of such copyright material in wads is very small indeed. I would hope that record companies would have bigger fish to fry in these matters than go after a relatively small group of individuals who incorporate such material into free add-ons for a 16-year-old game, ultimately out of homage and respect. The soundtrack used in UTNT added a new dimension to the wad, and it would be a tragic shame for it to have to be removed because "the record company is losing money" when they clearly aren't in this case. Honestly, how many people went out and bought the I, Robot score on CD? Moreover, how many people are actually going to sit down and rip all of the music out of UTNT for their own entertainment?

Basically what I'm saying is that, unlike P2P and torrent file sharing, the inclusion of such music in wads is ultimately harmless, but try telling that to the RIAA.

Actually, don't. What they don't know can't hurt them.

scalliano said:

Actually, don't. What they don't know can't hurt them.

Someone here will actually tell them, you know.

Well, it ain't gonna be me.

scalliano said:
Basically what I'm saying is that, unlike P2P and torrent file sharing, the inclusion of such music in wads is ultimately harmless, but try telling that to the RIAA.

It may be harmless commercially, but it erodes copyrights. In our community, for example, where we don't make money out of WADs, we have ways to discourage using each other's work without permission; the archive maintainer can reject WADs that do it, we can delete links from forums, send each other emails, flame each other on IRC, and so on. Companies have ways to do the same, such as when an Aliens TC for Quake was "FOXed".

Granted, I have always asked for the authors' permission where reuse is not implicitly consented. The problem is that asking permission simply isn't an option in these cases. Now you could say "just don't use it then", but that would have massive implications for pretty much every other Doom mod out there. A huge percentage of wads availabe for download have taken resources from other games - if any of the software devs in question were to put their foot down, the archives would severely shrink in size. No one wants that to happen. It is just a bit of fun after all.

BTW everyone knows that Fox are the biggest knob-ends when it comes to shutting stuff down, yet the Doom Aliens TC is still readily available. Id have done their own bit of foxing in their time - anyone remember the Generations mod for Q2? Admittedly it was shut down for directly ripping stuff from both Doom and Quake 1. In fact it directly ported the entire Quake shareware episode into Q2, so it wasn't surprising that Id got pissed off.

You certainly can make money from pwads too. It wouldn't work anymore, but it was common for a while in the 90s.

I'm sure Action Doom 2 has made a buck or two. :P

Aliotroph? said:
It wouldn't work anymore, but it was common for a while in the 90s.

It happened, as the game was popular and people saw it as a means to profit, but against the EULA, and id Software worked against it, speaking out and getting some shops to drop shovelware discs. Some PWAD authors, like the makers of Perdition's Gate and Hacx, got permission from id to sell their work under some deal.

Action Doom 2 is mostly okay to sell because, if I'm not mistaken, it's a standalone. It's only questionable bit is the inclusion of ZDoom, which is under a non-profit license.

myk said:

It happened, as the game was popular and people saw it as a means to profit, but against the EULA, and id Software worked against it, speaking out and getting some shops to drop shovelware discs. Some PWAD authors, like the makers of Perdition's Gate and Hacx, got permission from id to sell their work under some deal.

Did id had the right to prohibit selling PWADs, if those contain no material from IWADs?

MIDIs were always in a grey zone. If you are like myk and intepret the law to the most pedantic extent, yeah, they are illegal in someway, either if treated as sheet music, as melodies or whatnot.

In practice, MIDIs were never the object of as much (or at all) controversy as MP3 files no matter how and where they were used. Even when "ringtone services" actually started making money from them (ha!) nobody lobbied for the closing down of the thousand of free MIDI sites that have existed since forever on the net, and I doubt many of them actually have licenses to resell those MIDIs for a profit: they probably just sell you what you could already find for free (and was sequenced by some Joe P. Random on his free time anyway, in the 99.9% of cases).

Now, there is a small niche market for professionally sequenced MIDIs (even saw some for sale on floppies years ago), but it's really tiny compared to what's in the public domain.

So, for all practical purposes: none gives a fuck.

myk said:

Action Doom 2 is mostly okay to sell because, if I'm not mistaken, it's a standalone. It's only questionable bit is the inclusion of ZDoom, which is under a non-profit license.

I had the feeling that, ZDoom included or not, it was action2.wad that was being sold, not brawl.exe.

tempun said:

Did id had the right to prohibit selling PWADs, if those contain no material from IWADs?

Yes - and they still have. Note the sections highlighted below.

Extract from Doom's "Limited Use Software License Agreement" - 15-Dec-1993

"1. Grant of License. ID grants to you the right to use one (1) copy of the enclosed Id Software game program (the "Software") on a single computer. For purposes of this section, "use" means loading the Software into RAM, as well as installation on a hard disk or other storage device. You may not: rent, lease, modify, translate, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, or create derivative works based upon the Software.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may create a map editor, modify maps and make your own maps (collectively referenced as the "Permitted Derivative Works") for the Software. You may not sell or distribute any Permitted Derivative Works but you may exchange the Permitted Derivative Works at no charge amongst other end-users.
The Software, together with any archive copy thereof, shall be either returned to ID or destroyed when no longer used in accordance with this Agreement, or when the right to use the Software is terminated. You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or
exported into any country in violation of the U.S. Export Administration Act and that you will not utilize, in any other manner, the Software in violation of any applicable law."

The following was added to the License Agreement in 1994...

"In order to commercially distribute any such map editor or data utility you must first sign ID's Data Utility License and ID reserves the right to deny authorization to commercial distribute the any such map editor or data utility. You may request a copy of the Data Editor License from ID.

2. Commercial Use is Prohibited: Under no circumstances shall you, the end user, be permitted, allowed or authorized to commercially exploit the Software, any data comprising the Software (whether modified by you or otherwise) or any maps you make regarding the Software (collectively referred to as the "Materials")."

Activision's 2004 software license for the Doom Collector's Edition makes no mention of "Permitted Derivative Works" so for all I know, playing PWADs (which modify the software in RAM) is a breach of the license conditions. :(