Quake: HoC Demo now available

Quake: Harvester of Chaos (WIP title) is a expansion pack that I started on while I was restoring an old Quake map that I found. This is only a demo (4 maps available out of 7) to test out the current features and to get feedback for future revisions and improvements so feel free to email me with suggestions on making this expansion more enjoyable or post it here.

Also, get the word out, I want as much exposure to this as possible; more feedback, the better. Also, some stuff is still placeholder so that will be changed in the final release.

Some versions of Quake like the original DOS executable and WinQuake will have problems running this, so try using a more advanced port like FritzQuake and Darkplaces. GLQuake can also run this but I haven't tested it recently as GLQuake has suddenly stopped working on my machine.

Download link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18609/kq.zip

Screenshots:
http://villsa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/quakepack01.jpg
http://villsa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/quakepack02.jpg
http://villsa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/quakepack07.jpg
http://villsa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/quakepack14.jpg
http://villsa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/quakepack15.jpg
http://villsa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/quakepack16.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18609/Img/kq03_01.jpg

Side note: This is treated like a mod, meaning you must create a folder labeled 'kaiser' in the main Quake directory and then put the pak file in there. Use the '-game kaiser' parameter to start the expansion.

You sir do have my full attention! I'll be very interested to get into this later today and post some feedback when I can. Also, not-too-important, but why do the first 3 screens seem so shaky?

This gives me perfect motivation to get Quake running on my laptop. Does anybody have a recommended port that still works in software rendering (or would run decently on an S3 Savage IX laptop graphics chipset)?

Kirby said:

You sir do have my full attention! I'll be very interested to get into this later today and post some feedback when I can. Also, not-too-important, but why do the first 3 screens seem so shaky?

Forgot to turn off the stupid motion blur in the DarkPlaces port. Too lazy to re-take the screenshots.

Well, now I know what we'll be doing Saturday.

WildWeasel said:

This gives me perfect motivation to get Quake running on my laptop. Does anybody have a recommended port that still works in software rendering (or would run decently on an S3 Savage IX laptop graphics chipset)?

A good list of Quake engines can be found listing what renderer they have and other features.

I recommend aguirRe's Enhanced Win/GLQuake (found in the same zip as his glquake). His engines are optimized for speed and very large maps that wont run in other engines so it is very fast and light weight for normal sized maps too. Actually his goal was so authors could fix their big/broken maps but some people make big maps for it because they can. FritzQuake (gl only) also has the increased limits plus more features and user friendliness.

Tyr-glquake (again with a winquake in the zip) has some nice comfort features for the user and extra mapping somethings or other. Very nice standard limits engine. Tyr-quake is a good start I think if performance is good for you otherwise try aguirRe's winquake since nothing beats it's performance that I know.

This is stellar! The levels are beautiful to look at and have some of the best quake gameplay I've ever played (but then again, I've never been that much into quaking.. either way this is A+ work). Can't wait for the rest of it!

You certain? There has to be at least something that seemed 'off'. Also tried other difficulties and see how they compared to the other settings?

This is really good, I have to say.First map is insanely easy with too much health. Second map is insanely hard with too little health. :P But all in all I like it. Nice use of Ogro textures.


Now if only I could figure out how to cobble together my own quake maps. (I have the tools and the knowledge to use them now, but I can't come up with coherent ideas :P)

Kaiser said:

You certain? There has to be at least something that seemed 'off'. Also tried other difficulties and see how they compared to the other settings?

I did notice that there was a model that looked like a dog with no skin. It was just red..

rf` said:

This is really good, I have to say.First map is insanely easy with too much health. Second map is insanely hard with too little health. :P But all in all I like it. Nice use of Ogro textures.


Now if only I could figure out how to cobble together my own quake maps. (I have the tools and the knowledge to use them now, but I can't come up with coherent ideas :P)

Yeah, I initially tested all maps on hard difficulty and the extra medkits where designed with that mindset. Playing on easier settings with fewer monsters results in more medkits; that should be balanced out soon. In the second map, where are cases where you need medkits really bad?

Also how was the balance in the third map?

Krispavera said:

I did notice that there was a model that looked like a dog with no skin. It was just red..

As mentioned in the readme, they're placeholder model/skin.

Great stuff Kaiser. Had you told me about this release I could have whipped up a texture for you to go with the temporary Hellhound model.

Nice one, Kaiser. The maps have a very refreshing oldschool style. Looks are good, I like the classic flair. Some areas could perhaps be a little more refined in terms of detail, at least some trims here and there, but it definitely works well as it is. I'm also positively surprised that monster closets clearly outnumber visible monster teleports - something modern Quake maps seem to have forgotten for the most part. It shows your Doom roots. ;)
The hellhound is a neat addition, too bad it isn't skinned yet.
Your QC files still have the fish count bug (fish are counted twice). Simply delete the line "total_monsters = total_monsters + 1;" beneath the swimmonster_start bit in monsters.qc.
Two of the maps exceed the max_edicts limit (600), at least on skill 2. This means they require a source port with increased limits. You might want to tweak the maps in question to make them playable on regular source ports (=lower the edict count to around 580).

Here are some firstrun demos on skill 2, in case you want to see how I approached the battles etc: kaiser_demo_negke.7z. I didn't find any of the maps too hard or anything. No problems overall since there's always more than enough ammo and health, especially in the first map. Discovered about half of the secrets and died twice (buzzsaws), but only because I was dumb and didn't realize the button doesn't stay pressed. There're some additional comments in the demos.

If you want more feedback, you could also post this demo in the beta thread at Func_Msgboard, for this is where the Q1 mappers hang out.

Btw. the t_daddy monster is totally badass. Definitely looking forward to the finished episode.

Oh, and the pak file has to be named "pak0.pak", otherwise Quake won't recognize it, apart from DP maybe.

Are edicts just a technical term for entities?

Kaiser said:

Are edicts just a technical term for entities?

Yes. Not only monsters and items, but also stuff like triggers/funcs, path corners, switchable lights, monster and player projectiles, gibs etc. Use the "edictcount" command to see the numbers.
Since you're only exceeding the limit slightly (well, some 30 after all), I'm sure with some clever optimizing it could be lowered without sacrificing too much. Deleting entities is an option, but there're also other ways. For example, replacing two small ammo boxes by a large one, grouping brush models, or, since you're using a mod anyway, optimizing some of the targeting methods (allowing entities to target multiple targets at once).


Edit: As for the Hellhound skin, a simple solution would be to just add a few lava patches to the stock dog skin, similar to this Lava Shambler.

So anything that is considered dynamic? You mentioned switchable lights, so that means only light entities that are triggered by something else?

Yes.

Me and Khorus tried to run this in Coop. But we couldn't get past the blue door on the first map because the wall revealing the blue key didn't go down as it was meant to.

kristus said:

the wall revealing the blue key didn't go down as it was meant to.

It's caused by a glitch in the original code. In coop mode, weapons stay so every player has the chance to pick them up, but unfortunately this prevents them from firing their assigned targets. It can be fixed in the QC by making a weapon pickup fire its target once the first player touches it (even if he already has the weapon in his inventory), or simply by using a trigger_once on top of all such critical items.

I could imagine the same happening in some Doom engines as well.

neg!ke said:

It can be fixed in the QC by making a weapon pickup fire its target once the first player touches it (even if he already has the weapon in his inventory)

I am assuming thats in client.qc, if so then I'll have a look at it. Interesting bug though.

neg!ke said:

Yes.

Then that explains why the count is so high. I am a complete scripting whore so there's a lot of trigger_relays, triggers, and custom entities like func_timers, func_toggles etc. There's also custom AI hide nodes where enemies retreat to and wait if they are no longer in the player's view. The second map has tons of those and I figured 40% of them placed can be removed.

The lightning traps in the third map can easily be optimized since its using a crapload of func_timers and trap_lightning entities. I think I have an alternative approach to setting these up.

Kaiser said:

I am assuming thats in client.qc

Not sure, my qc knowledge is very limited. I would've assumed it required something along the lines of adding SUB_UseTargets to the weapon_touch function in items.qc. However, one also has to make sure the targets are only fired once...

there's a lot of trigger_relays, triggers, and custom entities like func_timers, func_toggles etc.

Ah, that explains a lot. I usually have excessive scripting entities in my maps, too, and sometimes it took an insane amount of tricks and hacks to lower the count. Luckily, you have the luxury of a mod.
Many of the AI nodes seem to be somewhat disadvantageous for the monsters, so removing some of them is definitely an option.

The lightning traps in the third map can easily be optimized since its using a crapload of func_timers and trap_lightning entities.

For a start, try to make the lightning traps require only one entity instead of two - the direction to be determined by the "angles" field and the beams' length by the size of the corridors (until they hit a solid surface). Possibly this would also help with the excessive tempentities issue that occurs in the one corridor (edit: actually, this could be related to the number of sounds as well).