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Hellbent

Greenwar2 review

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My friend r wrote a very thorough and interesting review on Greenwar2 and dm map making and detailing in general. I'm wondering the best way to circulate it for most viewership as he put a lot of time and thought into it (the review is 20 pages single spaced). Any suggestions would be appreciated. Not sure greenwar 2 was ever reviewed for /newstuff, but if not, not sure a 20 page review would work for /newstuff, so wondering where it might be best posted. Thanks.

Edit: Google Docs with Table of Contents and links within the document for easier navigation: Greenwar 2 review by r

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If the review is that long it might also be a good idea to make a table of contents (w/links) so users can go directly to the review of whatever map they are interested in.

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Holy wow.

I'm assuming the reviews of the maps I was involved will prominently feature the phrase "completely and utterly ruined the gameplay". I was retarded with bumpy floor detail back then, particularly in Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe. I fixed a lot of it before the release, but eeeeeehhhh :\

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Super Jamie said:

Google Docs shared link


That is definitely the best bet for something that long, unless you have your own blog or something to post it on (preferably with pagination!)

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Alternatively, even if the review is bad or good, I would be happy to host it on my website. I'm very big on the map making theory (bigger on that than actually making the maps) and project management, and with this stemming off of my whole 32in24-5 theory thing I'm really interested in seeing what has to be said so the process can be modified and work can be done better.

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I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks, r. Which of the forest.wads in the idgames database is r's?

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It was... an interesting read. I really take issue with some of those points, especially the, erhm, "holodeck" theme. You can expect a response.

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Google document with links and table of contents: Greenwar 2 review by r Does anyone know how I can post this article so it's not editable? What do you get when you click that link? When I click it, I get the Google edocument with the links but it's in editable format rather than just viewable format. If you get an editable version to, let me know. I'd like it to just be viewable and clickable.

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Hellbent said:

What do you get when you click that link?

To view the document with hyperlinks but not edit it. Because it's in your Docs account, you have edit rights. I think there's an option in the Share page to "view this as others see it" or something. Either way, it's fine as it is.

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Super Jamie said:

To view the document with hyperlinks but not edit it. Because it's in your Docs account, you have edit rights. I think there's an option in the Share page to "view this as others see it" or something. Either way, it's fine as it is.


Thanks Jamie. Say, does anyone know if GW2 was reviewed in /newstuff? I can't seem to find a review of it.

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Super Jamie said:

Neg, it's still sitting there with claim expired: http://www.doomworld.com/newstuff/


Okay, I thought r might have claimed it. (rrr = r). So... can this then be part of the next /newstuff or is it too long? The 20 page review posted in this thread was his review of it for /newstuff.

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Hellbent said:

The 20 page review posted in this thread was his review of it for /newstuff.

That's at least 18 pages too long, yes.

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Plus I honestly think that r, with his close ties to helping test the product, doesn't exactly afford and unbiased review. (Which isn't to discount his freakin' dissertation on GW2, but it's not really within the confines of what the reviewer criteria has been for /newstuff in general.)

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Shaikoten said:

Plus I honestly think that r, with his close ties to helping test the product, doesn't exactly afford and unbiased review. (Which isn't to discount his freakin' dissertation on GW2, but it's not really within the confines of what the reviewer criteria has been for /newstuff in general.)

Fair enough Shai, but what are the reviewer criteria? They are not written anywhere. It's true r was very close to this project in that he played the layouts many many times over the years and for that reason I had asked him which layouts he thought I should include in GW2. But he didn't work on it. I'd like to hear from whoever it is that officiates the /newstuff reviews what they think about this. What is the criteria?

[last edit hopefully]

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a lot of work, yes. i miss a download link and some screenshots though.

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Hellbent said:

Fair enough Shai, but what are the reviewer criteria? They are not written anywhere. It's true r was very close to this project in that he played the layouts many many times over the years and for that reason I had asked him which layouts he thought I should include in GW2. But he didn't work on it. I'd like to hear from whoever it is that officiates the /newstuff reviews what they think about this. What is the criteria?

[last edit hopefully]


Well, I doubt there is a hard written rule about not reviewing projects you're involved in, but a mod is free to correct me if I'm wrong. For all the years I've been in the Doom Community though, especially in the deathz0r /newstuff reviewing years, Dean made it very clear that he wouldn't even review a project he tested for /newstuff. Consequently, every single project I've been involved in has followed that as a general guideline. Seems like it keeps it (usually) neutral to me.

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Torr Samaho said:

a lot of work, yes. i miss a download link and some screenshots though.


No screenshots in this thread, but they can be found if you do a forum search for greenwar.

r's article can be found here.

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Shaikoten said:

It was... an interesting read. I really take issue with some of those points, especially the, erhm, "holodeck" theme. You can expect a response.

Look forward to the response.

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essenfortium said on 01-14-10

"I'm assuming the reviews of the maps I was involved [with] will prominently feature the phrase "completely and utterly ruined the gameplay". I was retarded with bumpy floor detail back then . . .
eeeeeehhhh :\"

Essenfortium--thank you for your honesty. That was a very dramatic and significant statment you made, and I credit you with a lot of courage. I hope we can get more detailers talking about gameplay, and more map makers talking about detailing. Thank you again. As for your detailing, I didn't much mind the bumpy floors, and I think
your detailing was excellent overall.

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Thanks. It's esselfortium, btw, not essenfortium ;)

Though I wouldn't consider myself solely or primarily a detailer, really. Actually, after reading this, I'd be somewhat interested in hearing your responses to a couple of DM maps I've put together recently. (Neither of them has been officially released anywhere yet, but I've posted some pictures of them both here and there.) Not that I'm planning on modifying them now, as I'd consider them both pretty much finished and I'm happy with how they play, but I'm still curious :P

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Sorry, I can't accept this tome as a /newstuff review. It completely goes against the purpose of the Chronicles as a non-lengthy digest of new WADs.

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google docs seems to very buggy. Has anyone had problems loading the google docs review of gw2 or clicking on the links within the review? Please let me know if you have had any difficulty.

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hmm. the review seems to be quite controversional, causing drama in /newstuff comments and all. i have to admit it's too long for my limited attention span, but i read a few parts and i'd have to both agree and disagree with some points being made. still, i don't want to argue in a point-by-point rebuttal, so i'll do my own review. map-by-map, as usual. :P
i love the original gw and i helped playtesting the later betas, so i'm not exactly impartial, but i'm one of the more active DM players on zdaemon, so it might be interesting to compare notes with people of other... preferences. or maybe not. as a sidenote, i haven't played 'the originals', i haven't even seen most of them, so i won't be comparing like r did. anyways, here goes.



MAP01 - The Desecrated Ruins - Hellbent/Craigs
design: this is a classic in the original gw spirit. centered around ssg action and open design, just begging to be used for ffa with controlling spawns and crowded areas. surely more vertical than gw1, but that's a common feature for the whole wad and it's the main distinguishing feature imo. it can bear 1on1, but... well, all the weapons thrown around indicate it wasn't the intent, like with many gw1 maps. i don't understand the point of the plasmagun, though. the open design and truckloads of hitscan weaponry makes it a poor choice for... anything. so the pillar isn't the map's focal point it probably should've been. 7/10
detail: tasteful. map looks great, the detail doesn't hamper the gameplay one bit afaik, i dig the greek(?) ruin theme. it only becomes bland-looking at high gamma (more than usual) and players with white/gray jackets get invisible. but hey, even zdaemon has 'override opponent color' now, so no big deal. overall a good detail job, 8/10

MAP02 - Chinook - Hellbent/Mechadon
design: an awesome multipurpose map. both 1on1 and ffa felt great here and i'm not saying that just because i raped everyone i played. :) a bit cramped maybe, but overall i think this map has a great flow. 9/10
detail: this map looks detail-heavy, but it's actually not. there's some floor detail, but it doesn't affect movement. there's some wall detail, but it's blocked for jumping on. that might bother someone attempting to hide in a nook he sees, but as i argued earlier, that'd promote camping to an insufferable degree. so... should it be there, then? i don't know. i don't mind it at all, but that's just my opinion. the map looks nice with it. the color palette might be a bigger problem. i often found the opponent hard to spot in such a rich background. needs override color -> pink :) 6-7/10 (depends on individual tastes)

MAP03 - Enter Baal's Sinister Wargrounds of Hate - Hellbent/Rottking
design: this is clearly a 1on1 map, ffa felt ridiculous as everyone kept rushing the ssg/bfg room to get fast frags. i haven't played enough duels here to pass a judgement, though. it's even 'less ballanced' than entryway and the gameplay with one player dominating the map and the other being defensive is much harder to evaluate. it might work and it might not. i'm not confident enough to tell, but the wing with just chainsaw scares me. ?/10
detail: i usually love whatever rott touches and i don't see anything wrong here. looks nice and there's no detail hampering your movement. exemplary. 8/10

MAP04 - Mayan Ryan - Hellbent/esselfortium
design: a very simple design. it's fun at 2 to 4 players, just raging ssgs in all the open space, but it gets simplistic and rather annoying over that limit. the RL is fine, but plasma seems totally pointless again, so putting it on a trap-like elevator is even more discouraging. 7/10 for intended usage, 5/10 for high player ffa.
detail: viz map01, i really like the ruins style. the darker floor helps avoid the chameleon players problem, too. there's some essel-floor detail, but it actually helps with some jumps instead of ruining them. makes the map an eye candy, but still simple. great job, 9/10
(except the exit area, meh. that shouldn't have been there at all!)

MAP05 - Filth Factory - Hellbent/Butts
design: at first i was like meh, because this map brings a change of pace, but it it actually is fun. just slower paced, with hallway surprise encounters rather than open space rampages. unlike r, i'm not impressed by the teleports, but i love the rl/plasma weapon grab by rushing from the opposite side, and the outer rooms. i still don't understand that rocket on top of the crates, though. it's just so... phalic. :) 7-8/10
detail: again, it looked rather disappointing at first, but i learned to like it. it's simple and doesn't disturb the player even at high gamma. i like those cables hanging from the ceiling, too. i'd only argue about the support pillars in the outer rooms... they look nice, but they might obstruct movement and are useless for cover. not a big issue, though. 8/10
(+ a wtf exit area again. why?!)

MAP06 - Escape From Philadelphia - Hellbent/Rottking
design: hell yes. a very sweet NS-style (mouselook, maybe item resp) duel map! it's tiny yet ballanced... RL and PG are surprisingly prominent for a hellbent map. :) removing one of the spawns near the blind door definitely helped, although it's still way too tight in ffa. definitely just for the 8-players brit10 crowd of zdaemon (retards). oh, and the exit area isn't such a stupid appendix, yay. 9/10 for duels, uhh/10 for ffa.
detail: rott is king. it's not an artistic jewel, but there's nothing to complain about here. a modestly detailed map without gameplay clashes. 8/10

MAP07 - Catarhactes - Hellbent/Mechadon
design: this feels like greenwar revisited. a large sized flat map, relatively complicated winded hallways and a fun mechanism accessing the strong weapon. yay! the health/armor cellar is a bad idea though, the plasma rampart would be enough. fun gw1 style ffa overall. 7-8/10
detail: what detail? iirc this was a late addition to the wad so mek rushed the detail job. anyone complaining about him overdoing the details... just give him only one day to finish them and he'll make an oldschool looking map with decent visuals. :) 5/10 if you're into beauty, 10/10 if you're a gw1 fundamentalist

MAP08 - Memnoch - Hellbent/Mechadon
design: i'm not sure if i just haven't played the map enough, but i can't find it appealing :-/ i've played it only in high count ffa, though. the central area seems prominent, but from my experience noone wanted to be there and people stacked in the tiny roofed outskirts. i think the plasma should've been a bfg and the roofed parts shoudl've been larger. 4/10
detail: well, it's hard to be impartial about detail on a map you don't exactly like, but the red floor and sky made me uneasy. it's clashing with the green/brown parts and i wanted the map to be over asap. that's bringing the rest down, cause the roofed areas are nice. 6/10
(i think this was a late addition, i don't remember the map from the betas)

MAP09 - Ascensio - Hellbent
design: this map reminds me of gw1 map16 and map17 (some of my favourites) and it almost works similarly in both 1on1 and ffa. but it's SO cramped it's very uncomfortable to move around. i'd probably widen all the hallways by half! there's no room to dodge, so ssg encounters are about who shoots first... and RL/PG are way too brutal in ffa. although it's almost certain you're gonna blow yourself up with rockets. 5/10 (-3 for the claustrophobia)
detail: there's none, so i won't evaluate.

MAP10 - Absinthe - Hellbent/brinks
design: quite simple. i haven't played 1on1 here so i'm not sure about the dynamics of it, but ffa is straightforward ssg action. sorry other weapons :P overall it feels like a derivative of map04, just with a different twist. 6-7/10
detail: woah. beautiful! one wonders how the outlying areas would play like, making the map larger and more varied... anyways. the PG part is really cramped and weird, but no one ever uses PG anyways, so you're free to enjoy the lovely details and sceneries and get killed while doing so. :) 10/10
(btw, really awesome exit area, but i doubt it's justifiable in a duel map)

MAP11 - Schism - Hellbent/Mechadon
design: this map is very complicated and confusing. and cramped. i have yet to play a duel here, but ffa is quite the clusterfuck centered on the tiny area where the green armor is. everything else wasn't yielding enough frags and people stumbled around stupified. the design is intriguing, but again... i'd make everything at least twice as big! 5/10
detail: no obstructive decorations, mostly just thematic textures and colour schemes. i don't know how much mek added to the design itself, but the detail is modest and restricted, so nothing to complain about. 7/10?

MAP12 - Graceful Onslaught - Hellbent/Craigs
design: i dislike this map personally, but i heard people praising it after a game. i guess it's a love/hate thing. the central uberlift area is definitely very interesting and i've seen players revel in doing laps around the map, raping others as they spawned. i'd give it 5 or 6/10, but i think others would go as high as 8
detail: hmm.. the map is certainly very nice. just sorta not very gw-ish. it looks like a cameo appearance from the udm series. :) also i'm not sure about some of the pointy corners sticking out. 6 or 8/10, depends if we consider gw-theme as a factor.

MAP13 - Tesseract - Hellbent/Mechadon
design: fun! retains the gw1 feeling, although it's still smaller than most of the maps of the predecessor. works very well in ffa, you can decide if you want to keep it safe with the cover of the inside corners or just go apeshit in the outside area (which yields frags faster). 7/10
detail: seems okay to me. colours are easy on the eye and do not obscure opponents, not as agressive as mek's map02. the outside wall snags, though, so one should stay away from it. also the blind corner in the exit area is silly. 7/10

MAP14 - Turquoise Hexagon Sun - Hellbent/esselfortium
design: decent. the bfg is imo VERY cheap and can brutally dominate the map in ffa, while the plasma is almost impossible to get and it's just cell ammo anyways. therefore people don't go into that part of the map much and concentrate near the BFG and RL, which is surprisingly effective with mouselook on ffa. the map doesn't feel very greenwarish overall and essel's pick of textures reminded me of what it resembles - crudream. 6/10
detail: ouch. i seriously underestimated how annoying the floor decor was here when i tested it in beta. some parts feel like riding a bike over a cobblestone road. also the walls tend to have some detail that sticks out into the playable space. quite interesting sidenote: while mek's overdetailed walls tend to be 'snaggy', essel's are 'bumpy'. you can find yourself thrown around after touching the wall, an effect i usually experience only with a high ping during online games. it looks nice, but this is the point where the detail becomes very obstructive to gameplay. and i'm sorry i underestimated it during the testing. 4/10 (after a huge gameplay penalty)

MAP15 - Superfluo - Hellbent/Mechadon
detail+design: i fucking love this. gw1 stuff with modern looks. it needs at least 6-8 players to populate the map, though. it's VAST. another gw1 legacy feature. 11/10.

MAP16 - Recycle or Die - Hellbent/Mechadon
design: another map that resembles the usual gw1 maps in size and gameplay both. it's reaching the size where you can choose a part of the map you will fight in, which is how the original is played. requires at least 6 players to get really interesting. the interesting lift idea from map12 is reused, but this time in a map i like, yay! 8/10
detail: very nice imo. the dominant green colour might resemble map02, but it's a different shade that doesn't hide the opponents as much. there's nothing obstructive except some snaggy fences around the outer border. interesting exit area, it's rather open and therefore sort of playable, although i still don't see the point of including them. 8/10

MAP17 - Milton - Hellbent/Cybershark
design: another large gw1-style ffa map. open areas for mad ssg battles, winding hallways for surprise attacks and hiding, maybe some rocket spam... classic dw1 stuff = awesome. 9-10/10
detail: i like the theme and careful non-obstructive detailing, but i'm affiliated with shark too much to grade it. :)

MAP18 - Through the Nuking Glass - Hellbent/Rottking
design: i still think the BA is overpowered, but otherwise? this map is tits. you need a large number of players to fill it up, but then... there's so many things to do and so many different ways to win. 10/10
detail: i have some small issues about some of the inner detail (too tacky possibly?) and the soulsphere lift is still totally unmarked (too secret?), but the outside area is the best. overall, one of the best looking maps without being disruptive to gameplay or even attention. 9/10

ok halfway through... i can't go on atm.

edit: a small correction in the map10 part

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yay.. thanks dew for the thorough review! What you might suggest in place of the plasma gun on the pillar on map01?

the exit areas were tacked on because some people thought the maps should have exits. r suggests an exit scheme that doesn't involve added sectors like this--you can easily find his section on exits in his review by searching 'exit' in the doc.

re: map09: the hallways are 136-144, which is pretty standard for my maps. Although this map is predominantly hallways and has horseshoe areas that probably should be wider and doesn't have open areas, so maybe I should have made the hallways wider. I don't like wide hallways in general... maybe I'll widen this map and see how it plays. Map16 of greenwar has hallways of 128 and 160.

re:map10. I also wanted to know how it would play if the outer areas were accessible. I made those areas accessible and added some stuff to them as well. If you'd like to playtest it sometime, let me know.

map 11: how many people are you playing with? most maps I make are designed for 2-4 players. how many is FFA? I'm sorta sad to hear no one likes this one as it's one I am more fond of.

map14: would you say swap the plasma and bfg locations?

map18: what is BA? the soulsphere secret could be better. If you walk over the candle it will lower.

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Hellbent said:

I wanted to ask you what you might suggest in place of the plasma gun on the pillar on map01?

i'm afraid i don't have a definite answer. a bfg might ruin the map, or it might not.. it's hard to predict. but with such an ultimate weapon, the pillar would have to be rised so you can't sr50/jump on it from the upper level. maybe a soulsphere? that'd be worth fighting for.

re:map10. I also wanted to know how it would play if the outer areas were accessible. I made those areas accessible and added some stuff to them as well. If you'd like to playtest it sometime, let me know.

r-mega2?! :) they definitely look fantastic.

map 11: how many people are you playing with? most maps I make are designed for 2-4 players. how many is FFA? I'm sorta sad to hear no one likes this one as it's one I am more fond of.

huh, i think it was 6 to 8 players, which is way too much for a level of this design. i'm always promoting a dynamic map by map playerlimit, but no server owners ever listen, cause it'd require additional work. :P from zdaemon experience, almost everyone likes to overpopulate maps at least a bit.

map14: would you say swap the plasma and bfg locations?

i believe that'd help

map18: what is BA?

blue armor :) it's a powerup stronger than a soulsphere, so having it lie around so casually is imo cheap.

i'll finish my review tomorrow, i think.

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