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Zetta

Hell's Last Stand [continuing the HR legacy](Update!)

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TimeOfDeath said:

I'd guess that HR's full potential, as intended by the original authors, was achieved the day they released HR.wad.

About the playtesting thing: I think releasing maps publicly is great for testing (in the past I've poked fun at keeping projects super-secret) - I just think testing is a mandatory aspect of mapping (including testing to the skill level that you want your map to be played at, like compet-n caliber).


I spend personally more time play testing than mapping because in the end only the GAMEPLAY MATTERS! It's going to be extensive play testing that matters mostly and fine tuning every skill level, texture, thing positions etc it's fairly easy to whip up a map in a couple of days but the question always is "How does play?". How this co-relates to how HR3 turns out will become more evident in the future as an avid player of the first two megawads I certainly do feel I have a good sense of game play dynamics I can also say the same thing for the rest of the team. A lot of people seem skeptical if we can pull it off I wouldn't waste my time if I didn't think we couldn't pull it off the controversy is just part of the whole enigma that surrounds the HR series. Some people hate it some people love it and others are neutral it does not really matter what your stance is for that matter it does not matter who is making it were just continuing the tradition.

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Pottus said:
the controversy is just part of the whole enigma that surrounds the HR series.

Perhaps there is enigmatic controversy regarding HR in some places, but in this thread it has little to do with any enigma. It's rather specific and straightforward.

A lot of people seem skeptical if we can pull it off

I mentioned skepticism, but it's not just about not delivering good game play, but about the appropriation of a celebrated name and the abuse of its popularity. Various people have expressed this, each in their words. It's already a problem that you didn't really get permission from Donner himself. Even if you more or less live up to an HR style, as other authors have done with their WADs, you don't really have a right to use that name. And not being able to locate the original author isn't a good excuse. When that happens, we just find another suitable name and move on with what matters; the game play.

The popular HR name can only serve to attract attention, and if you don't have a solid approval for using it, that attention will be sprinkled with a good dose of bad publicity. If you trust your ability to deliver good game play, make that rest on a name that identifies the current team working on it, and not on one which two guys that aren't around anymore used for their classic-era level set, unless they come in and say "hey, cool stuff, yeah, feel free to use our HR name for your project!"

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Were not trying to attract attention that was never our intent with this Wad we just want to continue the HR series because we all like it a lot. As I said it doesn't matter who makes it and as for permission I think Jonas would agree everything was done by the book. So everything your saying really means nothing I think that's pretty straight-forward don't you ? As for abuse I really think your post is which creates any form of abuse you see insinuating that we are creates a false image were not sitting behind the scene scheming ways to exploit anything. Pretty straight-forward for you yet ?

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Assuming goodwill on your part, intentions don't matter as much as what you are doing. If I were to run my car over someone's lawn but didn't understand that I was doing something annoying or destructive, I'd still be damaging their property. Using the name without the approval of the original authors will just make people say "why the hell is this called HR3, did Donner and Niv have anything to do with this?" They will do some research, see that the answer is "no" and call you out on it, regardless of intentions.

I think it's wrong to use the name of another's work like this, and I will tell you about it in this forum where I am a regular and mod. Other people may from time to time also remind you of this misuse, and they'll have every right to express it, if they wish.

I'm looking forward to yet another game-play oriented, vanilla level set. Those are quite welcome, if you ask me, HR-inspired or otherwise. I do, however, think it's best to proceed in a way in which authors respect each other's work. Using their work or the identifying names of that work without their permission degrades the community, because sharing must be a choice, not an inevitability.

Pottus said:
I think Jonas would agree everything was done by the book.

That does not seem clear. In fact, it isn't even clear there was any such permission to do HR2. After I brought this up, Gemini hinted there was something on Donner's now defunct site. If so, cool, that would make HR2 something accepted by the HR authors. This doesn't extend to a presumed HR3, though.

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As we said before, we will do our best to find Yonatan Donner.
We are hiding nothing, just try and lay your accusations aside for just a little while, and try to see what we have to offer.

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Zetta said:
As we said before, we will do our best to find Yonatan Donner.

That's great. If you find him and he approves, no one will doubt that your using the name is reasonable. But remember, when not finding him, it's best to assume he doesn't even want to be found and isn't granting any rights over what he offered in the HR text file.

We are hiding nothing, just try and lay your accusations aside for just a little while, and try to see what we have to offer.

I had to explain all this, since it wasn't getting through at all initially. It's more of a fact than an accusation, and it goes beyond some personal preference. This sort of thing (like using a "franchise" only with permission) helps make the difference so that authors, especially of high-caliber projects, can work comfortably knowing we understand each other's limits and have enough respect for each other to reach out and ask each time we somehow use each other's work in ways beyond merely playing it.

I have no reason to attack you guys, especially since you guys are making something that I might potentially find interesting to play, given my "old school" preferences. But, in the process of awaiting a good project from you guys, I am not going to help destroy principles that make this a solid community.

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Thats fair enough myk we have no intentions of degrading the community but all in all though I really do think Jonas would not have given permission if this was a problem considering he is helping with the project why would he do something that would affect his image and the image of HR2? You might think that it's wrong but if Jonas has no problem with it why should you or anyone else? I'm certainly going to make a concerted effort to contact Yonatan for additional permission. I also would like to plead with the community if anyone can contact him it would be greatly appreciated.

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Hey guys, I would like to join this project however I didn't come with nothing to show. If you guys wanna look at my latest released work on idgames, check this out: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=15532

I dare you guys to play map03 on UV, that map is very hard for me and was for my testers at least. It was originally a vanilla project but after ellmo left (leader of the project) I decided to break the rules and turn those maps into boom maps.

However if you guys want to know more about me, i'm a leader of Zero Invasion project over Skulltag forums which is still under the works however each new build is available for the public to play (and that's what makes people happy). It's for skulltag obviously and mine maps are Z1INV01, Z1INV02, Z1INV04 and Z2INV01, people often bitch about the difficulty of my maps in single player but I don't care as long as it doesn't seem unfair for myself. Here's the link to the zero invasion: http://www.phenomer.net/hosted/zero_inv/ZeroinvasionRev93.zip

Keep in mind that i'm a bit busy guy due working on Zero Invasion and Xenus 3 (a TC i'm developing for gzdoom, not mentioning it here because it's not doom really). I'm also known for a bit work in TNT2 that is being developed as well.

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Zetta said:

As we said before, we will do our best to find Yonatan Donner.

Maybe you can hope for a dead perfect e-mail? It's from 2008, for crying out loud. Well, it looks like "@planetquake" on the other hand; I'm not sure if it's being checked regularly.

But try it.

Try and find Haggay Niv if you can't find Donner.

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Pottus said:
I really do think Jonas would not have given permission if this was a problem considering he is helping with the project why would he do something that would affect his image and the image of HR2?

Only he can say, but perhaps he didn't think about it, much like when we miss a bug in a map we're making.

You might think that it's wrong but if Jonas has no problem with it why should you or anyone else?

They respect the principle that one should ask for permission to use another's work or distinctive names. They could feel that if someone else's work is used without permission, the same could also be done to their own work eventually, if that becomes a common habit.

Edit: http://www.oocities.com/hollywood/4704/

^ That shows HR2 itself was explicitly granted approval, as gemini09 noted.

printz said:
It's from 2008, for crying out loud.

It's from '98, but the WAD was uploaded to idgames 10 years later.

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I do respect your position myk I know you probably don't fully respect ours. The webpage you posted this is noted there.

"But both of these projects have my approval and I'm happy that people like Hell Revealed enough to want to create more of it."

I'm sure Yonatan would definitely approve of what we are doing on that note but I will still hopefully get direct approval I'm sure in the end everything will work out.

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Pottus said:
I'm sure Yonatan would definitely approve of what we are doing on that note but I will still hopefully get direct approval I'm sure in the end everything will work out.

He could, but only asking confirms it. By saying those two projects got approval, he implied any others would also need to have such approval. Had he said something like "it's okay to do sequels of HR like these, you don't need to ask me" we could be certain he'd approve of HR3 or other projects. The act of asking, itself, is important, even when we feel the author is likely to say yes. It's a direct gesture, and it also makes the association clear to anyone else. We never know what authors will say for certain, and while some might confirm with a "ha, of course you can, no need to ask," others might be very kind and sharing if asked, yet may get upset when someone doesn't ask.

The only ways to really know we don't need to ask are if the author already gave an okay in general, or if we do ask and the author says "no need to ask!"

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I don't wish to see this go around again so to state more clearly what I think is myk's point.

The guy given permission to make a derivative/sequel does not own the rights to the original and cannot herein grant permission for more derivatives/sequels. Although you might be able to get away with "Hell Revealed II: Yet Again" lol

Say an artist like Jason Derulo does some Sampling with permission for his song "Whatcha Say" where he reuses the chorus from Imogen Heap's song "Hide and Seek". This does not give Jason Derulo the authority to grant Sampling of Heap's "Hide and Seek" to another artist. Nevermind that I think he totally misses what it is that Miss Heap is saying and that her lyrics directly conflict with his own words. Ugh, it's catchy though so I like it enough but I digress.

Back on topic and all that being said, myk's link does show Donner being very happy about a prequel and a sequel or anything being made that is more HR.

Donner said:

Hell Revealed: Episode 1?

Here is the home page of a new Doom megawad: Hell Unleashed - prequel to Hell Revealed. As with Chrozoron's Hell Revealed II, I am not involved with this project and neither is Haggay, so there's no guarantee that they'll be similar to Hell Revealed in any way other than the name :) But both of these projects have my approval and I'm happy that people like Hell Revealed enough to want to create more of it.


I don't really care what it's called though I lean toward something other then HR but I thought Plutonia 2 was fantastic so I'll give it a lot of slack though I don't fully agree with it either.

James Cameron made Aliens which was very different from Alien yet shared many resources and they are both great in their own way. Someone else made Terminator 3 and it was too much the same in resource but missed much in execution so... good luck with the project whatever you call it! I might make it through HR and even HR2 by then, heh.

-EDIT- myk made things a little clearer while I was authoring my post but I think my example stands.

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Pottus said:

I do respect your position myk I know you probably don't fully respect ours. The webpage you posted this is noted there.



Sorry, but that sure is not sufficient. This whole thing smells a lot like 'we want to take advantage of someone else's work to promote our own project', not like a legitimate sequel.

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myk said:

Edit: http://www.oocities.com/hollywood/4704/

^ That shows HR2 itself was explicitly granted approval, as gemini09 noted.

Reading that it seem like Donner is fine with anyone using the IP really.

Yonathan Donner said:

Here is the home page of a new Doom megawad: Hell Unleashed - prequel to Hell Revealed. As with Chrozoron's Hell Revealed II, I am not involved with this project and neither is Haggay, so there's no guarantee that they'll be similar to Hell Revealed in any way other than the name :) But both of these projects have my approval and I'm happy that people like Hell Revealed enough to want to create more of it.

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HackNeyed said:
-EDIT- myk made things a little clearer while I was authoring my post but I think my example stands.

As far as the Aliens and Terminator franchises are concerned, all those producers had explicit permission to do the sequels. A derivative sequel can be different, but it's okay only if it's exploiting the successful name of the original with approval.

kristus said:
Reading that it seem like Donner is fine with anyone using the IP really.

How so? Read my previous post, where I analyze what he said. My point is:

both of these projects != all such projects

Donner may be happy to see derivatives, but they are all still up to him to approve. He trusted those two, but for any reason whatsoever, he could decide to withhold approval for any other project. Hence, we need to ask, even when we are 99% certain he'll say yes, because that 1% no is up to him and not in our control.

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I didn't read your previous post first. As I forgot to update the thread before posting. (So there were a bunch of new posts when I had posted, ;)

Anyway. I'm not really saying that there's any proof of him being A-OK with this. The text is very loose in it's translation. It's never clear if either of the mods sought his approval in the first place. It's just an as valid argument that he simply came across them one way or another and decided to pimp them. The ending of the post also sort of hints at a "go nuts y'all" as to making HR wads. EDIT: I don't think you should read in too much into the "Both of these" comment. There were two at that time, had there been three, you can't be sure that he wouldn't have said "All three of these" instead, regardless of asking.

I still don't think anyone should make HR sequels instead of simply making their own IP. I find it a rather cheap way to get acceptance and attention for your project.

EDIT: And just because Donner's text might suggest that it's OK to make HR sequels. Doesn't mean that it was what he was saying, could just as easily have been what Myk claimed.

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The Aliens and Terminator example was meant to leave the copyright topic and quickly explore what can happen when different people head a franchise. To illustrate the good of new executions to the old themes and idea with a solid, almost stand alone vision for the departure, or the bad of simply reusing the theme and idea without understanding the original's success and execution.

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kristus said:
And just because Donner's text might suggest that it's OK to make HR sequels. Doesn't mean that it was what he was saying, could just as easily have been what Myk claimed.

Yeah, it's like when a law is being passed through the legislature, and everyone is sure congress will pass it, but it needs to go through the congressional voting. We don't just say the law is in effect just because we're pretty much certain the congressmen will approve it.

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I'm having flashbacks to another thread were it was argued that "not being allowed to use levels as base to make new mods" was the same as "not being allowed to redistribute the exact same mod but with a simpler installation package". Here "It's cool that people are making new HR mods, I've heard of these two and I'm okay with them" is meant to say "I hate it when people make new HR mods, and while I have reluctantly agreed to let these two live, I will not give permission to anyone else".

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In that case the author's work, as offered, was being modified, and he had not granted such permission.

In this case, saying I hate it when people make HR mods is plain bullshit, and you can take it back. If I hate that, I might as well hate Plutonia sequels and the like. What the fuck was I doing contributing to one? Not to mention the praise I throw at HR-inspired levels.

Also, as I said, I'm being critical here yet this is a vanilla project, which is the type I like most, and am happy to see more of.

I've been pretty clear all along, if you've been reading: I get the impression Donner would approve of an HR mod such as this one, but I'm not Donner to say so, so I tell people not to call their HR inspired mod HR unless they ask Donner first. How can Donner decide if he's not asked? (That is what the congress example illustrated.)

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kristus said:

I still don't think anyone should make HR sequels instead of simply making their own IP. I find it a rather cheap way to get acceptance and attention for your project.
[/B]


It's all about making a good Wad based off a fan favorite nothing more I tell you whats cheap that is for someone not to make it. We could have done some no-name project but no we wanted to do a project based off something we liked. We all knew full well there would be comments like this beforehand it's really disappointing but at the same time motivating to press on.

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Before someone else comes and posts in here, let me say one thing - We are in the process of attempting to get ahold of Yonatan. We are in the process of trying to get OFFICIAL RIGHTS to use the HELL REVEALED name. Why continue to beat the dead horse? You've all made your points. We understand them and we are acting upon them. We have sent e-mails to several different accounts connected with Yonatan. The horse is dead, fellas; the horse is dead.

Also.

Graf Zahl said:

This whole thing smells a lot like 'we want to take advantage of someone else's work to promote our own project', not like a legitimate sequel.


You have the right to think what you want, but this is the last thing we are trying to do. We are all lovers of the Hell Revealed series and we would like to continue the legacy that is Hell Revealed.

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Pottus said:
It's all about making a good Wad based off a fan favorite nothing more I tell you whats cheap that is for someone not to make it. We could have done some no-name project but no we wanted to do a project based off something we liked.

Most people here would be quite happy to see an HR inspired WAD, even a sequel following the story (I don't even recall if HR had one, as if that mattered), but using the name directly, without the author giving the green light, is what others have avoided on purpose out of respect.

Suppose you dropped the name, but continued in the same exact design direction? What would you lose? In part, you might lose a bit of attention. "HR3" makes people say "whoa another HR sequal" and on the other hand, you'd lose the "who are these noobs to make the new HR, did they even get permission from Yonatan?"

In your place, assuming you more or less value that extra push given by the HR3 name, what I would do is try to contact Donner, as you are doing. If successful, assuming he said yes, I'd use the name. If not, I'd change the name to something cool that somehow brings HR to mind and use that instead. You lose nothing except some controversy, and you do everything in respectable and mature way anyone, from a friend to a stranger, can understand.

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myk said:

Most people here would be quite happy to see an HR inspired WAD, even a sequel following the story (I don't even recall if HR had one, as if that mattered), but using the name directly, without the author giving the green light, is what others have avoided on purpose out of respect.

Suppose you dropped the name, but continued in the same exact design direction? What would you lose? In part, you might lose a bit of attention. "HR3" makes people say "whoa another HR sequal" and on the other hand, you'd lose the "who are these noobs to make the new HR, did they even get permission from Yonatan?"

In your place, assuming you more or less value that extra push given by the HR3 name, what I would do is try to contact Donner, as you are doing. If successful, assuming he said yes, I'd use the name. If not, I'd change the name to something cool that somehow brings HR to mind and use that instead. You lose nothing except some controversy, and you do everything in respectable and mature way anyone, from a friend to a stranger, can understand.

Got a question to you sir, what if Yonatan passed the "stick" to Chroz and then Chroz is passing the "stick" to them with his help? Seriously guys, think twice before you start "posting" about all of this. That's my main gripe with all the doom communities, old generation adults not letting new generation kids take the "stick" and do the right thing. Whatever you may say, give them the chance to try to live up to the name. Don't cross them out when they're starting with one of original authors. This reminds me of how old people tend to like classic music and hate new music same with new kiddos who hate classical music but enjoy techno/rock/metal etc. it's all the same thing in reality. All I gotta say is, stop the goat moaning, give those kids a chance to live up to the name that was once revolutionary and stop being so close-minded!

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Perhaps this is Yonatan? The person who took the pic seems to be at Stanford University, so maybe he is, or was, there. I'm pretty sure he worked on this treatise because the birth year given there ('81) coincides with that of his COMPET-N profile.

alterworldruler said:
Got a question to you sir, what if Yonatan passed the "stick" to Chroz and then Chroz is passing the "stick" to them with his help?

I asked about the terms for HR2 a while back, on the first page. If what you suggest were the case, Chrozoron can easily confirm it. It doesn't look like it, though, from the comment quoted above about two HR-inspired projects he approved of, including HR2. It pretty much says HR2 was an independent project, and not something inheriting his author's rights.

That's my main gripe with all the doom communities, old generation adults not letting new generation kids take the "stick" and do the right thing. Whatever you may say, give them the chance to try to live up to the name. Don't cross them out when they're starting with one of original authors.

I can't give them that stick because I don't have it. The HR stick is Donner's, and that is why the idea here is that they ask him for the stick.

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Pottus said:

We could have done some no-name project but no we wanted to do a project based off something we liked.

Sorry to say that, but with the above you have proven that Graf Zahl is right.

I have a simple question for you. Is Deus Vult a no-name project?

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Every project starts out as a no-name project even Deus Vult at one time no one knew what it was. It's well known now but every Wad starts out as no-name project. As a matter of fact Deus Vult was my inspiration to even start mapping. There is no stealing of the name here that's a very gullible belief just think if had we named the project "Hell Revealed 2: Reborn" would there be the same amount of revolt? Was Graf Zahl there to see how everything got started for us? No. I've already said why we wanted to start it if you want to saturate yourself with misconstrued accusations be my guest.

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myk said:

In this case, saying I hate it when people make HR mods is plain bullshit, and you can take it back.

I didn't say you were saying that, I said you were saying that HR's original author was saying that. And obviously, that was caricatural.

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The inability to provide, and/or stubbornness against providing, an original name for this project, does not leave me with high hopes for the ability of the same team to provide an original, quality gameplay experience.

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