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phi108

Doom in 3D

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Going out on a tangent. Is it not possible to create a monitor like a lcd screen that is like a hologram? So you look into it and see 3D depth, with a paper thin medium? Is this possible in the future without using 3d glasses or any shit like that, you just have 3D floating windows on your desktop and 3D depth in Doom?

Would that not be better, I wonder if this is possible.

We do have this though. http://www.dimensionalstudios.com/philips_42_3d_wowvx_display.html

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Ofc it's possible, but it will still be gimmicky 2.5D/2D with depth just like the 50s 3D b-movies.

True 3D means holograms, and a volumetric projection you can physically walk around, look from behind, from above etc. and not something that pops from a 2D screen.

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I just threw together a few more quick 3D shots. These are all rough, I just moved the player a bit to the side, without taking care to move the exact eye separation distance:

Uppercut to the Cyberdemon face in 3D:


Heretic in 3D:


Grosse in 3D:


And, a bunch of plasma packs in 3D. But what's that over the edge....:

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Awesome. Too bad the 2 imps (one throwing fire, other not) in about the middle of the heretic bar are too close to quartering the screen, which makes it very difficult to focus on them crosseyed.

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Nice shots, phi. However, some of them illustrate a problem I hadn't thought of: low resolution, unfiltered textures viewed at a distance can pixelate in vastly different ways from just slightly different viewpoints, which harshly blurs some areas of the visual field. The left "gate" in the second Heretic shot from the bottom shows an example of this, as do the distant textures in the Grosse shots.

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That's true, Creaphis, but I think the main thing that hinder these shots are the parts that only one eye can see, especially when they are in the main focus of the picture. Notice that the ones that work best are the ones without one monster right in the player's face, while ones like the first two, with things up close to the player, are obstructing large other parts of the picture, and so are hard to focus on.

That said, I don't think the first two worked out well with the blood splats and the cyber-punching. If you focus on the blood/hand, the rest of the shot goes out of focus, and vice versa.

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DuckReconMajor said:

That said, I don't think the first two worked out well with the blood splats and the cyber-punching. If you focus on the blood/hand, the rest of the shot goes out of focus, and vice versa.


Much like when you hold your hand up in front of your face, but keep staring at the computer screen.

I don't mind the Heretic screenshot with the close-up gargoyles, either. Even though the image of the right gargoyle is harshly cut off in two different places for the two eyes, this is something the human brain can get used to - and indeed, has gotten used to. For instance, you don't realize it, but your nose is chopping your visual field to pieces.

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Creaphis said:

Of course. That's because the weapon sprite's placement wasn't adjusted between the two shots, as it should have been,

No, it's the opposite. He adjusted them too much

I mean really, I can only see the cyber's face in one shot

Everyone keeps doing that

edit: i c u mr edit man

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Damn, I was hoping to finish my ninja edit before you saw that post. I just assumed that he hadn't adjusted the sprite placement and then saw my mistake afterward. Anyways, it's still fine. It's natural that occlusion will differ between the shots. This is how depth perception works.

The "distance" between the weapon and the player could use some tweaking, though. Adjusting that would be especially awkward for weapons like the shotgun, which ideally would appear to recede into the distance but, if the same sprite is presented to both eyes, could only appear as a flat vertical cutout.

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Enjay said:

Reminds me of this thing that I had waaaaay back in the day.


I had one of those too, back in the day (the 90s, heh)! It disappeared during one of the big junk haul-off sessions.

@Creaphis, I just made a few more Grosse pics with GZDoom's linear mipmapping, with no filter. I think they work better...

EDIT: And yeah, i think I made the hand too close to the scren in the punching shot. I think the sprites are separated by 46 pixels, but if there isn't enough separation, the weapon will appear to sink into walls when the player gets very close to a wall.

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The only time I got to play with a Viewmaster was at my grandma's house.

phi108 said:

@Creaphis, I just made a few more Grosse pics with GZDoom's linear mipmapping, with no filter. I think they work better...


I think so too. Distant stuff is just a bit clearer.

phi108 said:

if there isn't enough separation, the weapon will appear to sink into walls when the player gets very close to a wall.


This is an issue that has always existed in Doom. Hold a shotgun while up against a wall, and what you see is patently ridiculous. Stereoscopy just makes the weirdness clearer. I would concentrate on making the screenshots look good in open scenes and just accept that weapons are capable of quantum interposition.

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Maes said:

True 3D means holograms, and a volumetric projection you can physically walk around, look from behind, from above etc. and not something that pops from a 2D screen.


You'll just have to wait until they invent the Holodeck then. The closest thing we have is red/blue anaglyphs.

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EDIT: Simple 3D text below, see picture

Creaphis said:

low resolution, unfiltered textures viewed at a distance can pixelate in vastly different ways from just slightly different viewpoints, which harshly blurs some areas of the visual field. The left "gate" in the second Heretic shot from the bottom shows an example of this...


I see what you mean now Creaphis. I just threw together two sets of shots, one with GZDoom's linear mipmapping, the other with no mipmapping. The one with mipmapping definitely looks better. But I think I would be able to deal with real time 3D doom in software mode, swimming textures don't bother me too much, even in 3D.

Here are the screens, showing off the Heretic gate textures in E2M8:

EDIT: Comparison shot, with 3D text:



No mipmapping


Linear mipmapping

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Coold00d: Sorry, but I can't figure out a way to explain one of your body's most basic abilities to you. They're your eyes. Cross 'em.

phi108: I never noticed your most recent set of stereograms until now. I think they provide more proof that texture filtering improves the 3D effect. Filtered textures have their own form of blurriness, but it isn't a form of blurriness that damages the depth illusion in the way that software rendering's pixelation does.

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Coold00d said:

Uh... what do I do? these are just normal images... how do you Cross your eyes?

parallel them instead like i do

edit: ok never mind forget that, the eyes are backwards oops

how many of these are made with cross eyed in mind? i just offset this one in photoshop (since i can't cross my eyes) and it looks much better

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These are all made for cross-eyed, but it's an easy switch, anyone wanting to view parallel can just copy to MSPaint/etc and cut off the right half, copy, paste on the other side of the left half.

I would probably use OpenGL with mipmapping to play Doom in 3D(stereo 3D, god I hate the way that 3D can now mean two different things), but I still hope that in-game, it wouldn't be as big a problem if some textures mess up at a distance. And maybe short-range, claustrophobic mapsets would appear better with stereoscopic software rendering.

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These images are the same exact I notice a slight offset in the other. However, I see no 3D effect at all. I don't have anything to help the view of stereoscopic imagry. I also cannot cross my eyes as my right eye is dominant. I can close my left eye but not my right.

The only real way to view these images is to setup special elongated goggles and put the image in them far enough so that your brain merges the picture into one single image.

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GhostlyDeath said:

I also cannot cross my eyes as my right eye is dominant. I can close my left eye but not my right.


For years I believed I had a vision problem because of having a "dominant eye" too, but then I read that this is actually the norm for the average human. Some quack oculist time ago even labelled me as having "flawed vision lacking stereoscopy and depth perception", which I believed until I saw that I was able to use gun sights, see autostereograms and 3D movies just fine, which means that he was bullshitting me all the time.

I even had my friends verify for themselves that we all have a dominant eye (just look a distant object that's just hidden enough not to see with one of the eyes, and compare if you can see it with both eyes then with one eye at a time). The eye that can see it just as well as with both eyes, is the dominant one.

GhostlyDeath said:

The only real way to view these images is to setup special elongated goggles and put the image in them far enough so that your brain merges the picture into one single image.


Or a view master type appliance. They are just too small and in the middle of too much clutter to watch inside the forums. Perhaps taking them one at a time, full screen and on a black BG with nothing else to focus on, at the right distance etc. will help but they are a PITA. Other stereoscopy methods are superior and less of a strain for the eyes.

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Maybe some of you got hard to "cross-eyes", so i would recommend to zoom out the image with your browser or any other program.

Also, this technique works better with 3D scenery with 3D objects into it. This is, Doom sprites will never look 3D because they have no "depth" attribute, so you can't never see then 3D with this.

I did one sample showing off how a "real" 3D scenery with 3D objects looks like. Not Doom related, but maybe you know what's that about :




Remember: if you are not able to match the both images, you can zoom out the image to make it easy. For example, for this image, i need to set the Opera Browser zoom to 60% or 65%.

Another point that makes some of those previous images not to work very well, is that they probably are done looking at different points. This is, when "step-right", you must keep looking to the same point:

----0-----------
    |\
    | \
    |  \
    |   \
    |    \
    |     \
   POS1   POS2
The more precise you look to the same point when stepping right, the better the effect will look.

Enjoy.

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Super Jamie said:

I can't focus on that one at all. The "2D" Doom images are alot easier.

His is for parallel so try offsetting it in Pshop or Gamp or whatever

Karnizero said:

Another point that makes some of those previous images not to work very well, is that they probably are done looking at different points. This is, when "step-right", you must keep looking to the same point:

Your image looks great. But when doing this though, won't stuff in the distance go out of focus? Or is this the intent?

If it is the case, wouldn't 3D games and movies have the problem of choosing what the viewer focuses on?

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DuckReconMajor said:

If it is the case, wouldn't 3D games and movies have the problem of choosing what the viewer focuses on?


This is a problem currently. Recently it was most noticeable when I saw my Bloody Valentine 3D. A lot of the 3D effects blurred things in the background, which kinda forced me to pay attention to things in the foreground, which added a little to the shock value of the "OMG HORROR" in that movie.

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Karnizero said:

Also, this technique works better with 3D scenery with 3D objects into it. This is, Doom sprites will never look 3D because they have no "depth" attribute, so you can't never see then 3D with this.


This was pointed out before, and I think it doesn't matter much. Doom sprites have always been flat, and I've always been okay with that. But Doom scenery and architecture have always been "stereoscopic ready". I'd rather enjoy alot of well built maps in 3D than a bunch of monster models in 3D. And even with Doom sprites, you can at least tell which sprites are closer and which are farther.

Karnizero said:

This is, when "step-right", you must keep looking to the same point:


I don't think this is necessary. It matters if you think the player will be looking at one thing only, but in a real-time Doom game you have to let the player look at whatever they want to look at.

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