Been playing PC games since 1993 & I still think...

...that the Arch Vile from Doom 2 is the greatest game monster of all time. I was playing the Ultimate Torment & Torture WAD the other day, and I had cleared all monsters of a level except for a single Arch Vile which got locked into a huge corridor with a bunch of dead baddies. When I needed to backtrack for something I discovered that this nasty necromancer had resurrected EVERY monster on the level. Total pandemonium. But I BEAT THAT BASTARD, and left him to fester for all eternity with his thralls by just quietly escaping out the exit. You shoulda heard the noise.

C.

Personally, I don't really like 'em.

Clever? Yes.
Interesting attack? Yes.
Fascinating secondary ability? Yes.

Overused? Definitely.
Annoying? All too often, yes.

When used well, they can be good but all too often they are just stuck in there because "lol my wad needs to be tough" or somehow it seems compulsory to stick an archie in every WAD these days.

Many times when I see them just "thrown in for the hell of it", I just whack them instantly with the MDK cheat. If I encounter a few more unimaginatively thrown in to the level, then chances are I'll just quit or type "kill monsters" to explore the look of the level for a bit, then quit.

If people are going to use them, they need to be used well and thoughtfully.

Oh, and their death animation is crap. :P

I agree with the OP. Love them. Been playing through TNT and Plutonia for the first time in awhile and both of those episodes feature some interesting uses of them.

They can really mess you up, or rather, make sure you ARE messed up! A great enemy.

Enjay said:

Personally, I don't really like 'em.

Clever? Yes.
Interesting attack? Yes.
Fascinating secondary ability? Yes.

Overused? Definitely.
Annoying? All too often, yes.

When used well, they can be good but all too often they are just stuck in there because "lol my wad needs to be tough" or somehow it seems compulsory to stick an archie in every WAD these days.

Many times when I see them just "thrown in for the hell of it", I just whack them instantly with the MDK cheat. If I encounter a few more unimaginatively thrown in to the level, then chances are I'll just quit or type "kill monsters" to explore the look of the level for a bit, then quit.

If people are going to use them, they need to be used well and thoughtfully.

Oh, and their death animation is crap. :P

The very first time I ever encountered one in the mid-levels of Doom 2 I was so disheartened by its overpowering conflagration attack that I immediately quit playing Doom games and only just recently started playing them again, with much greater success (oh, the power of strafing & mouselook!). I only learned of Archie's secondary attack also rather recently playing Eternal Doom and was blown away by how clever it was. I haven't played a lot of WADS yet so I'm not as jaded as you obviously. ;) I was going to ask what the MDK Cheat was but I won't because I'm sure I'll abuse it. lol.

As far as new Doom monsters go from community resource packs, was impressed with the ghosts from UT&T that appear instantly before (or behind you) whack you, then phase out, then in again. Nifty stuff.

C.

I like 'em. The archvile is notable for having an attack pattern unlike the attack pattern of any other monster in the game, which means the player has to use unique strategies against it. This is a real strength of Doom's monster design overall - most monsters have to be fought in very different ways, which keeps gameplay interesting. What you see too often in other games is enemies that are essentially this other monster, only more so, as in, they have the same behaviour as another monster but have a stronger attack or require more dakka to kill. Encounters with such monsters may be more challenging, but without being more interesting, which is bad.

Personally, I think the question that Doom modders should ask themselves when making custom monsters is: how can I design another archvile? Ideally, any new Doom monster should have an attack or ability that forces the player to fight it differently from how he fights anything else. The modder should attempt to devise some sort of monster behaviour that does not yet exist in Doom, but could. He should find and fill an ecological niche.

It may be overused, but you can't really blame the archvile for that. It just goes where it's put. If you don't want to see inappropriately-placed Archviles, then play better wads. If you want to see a hell of a lot of archviles, but want all of them to be well-placed, play Disturbia.

Creaphis said:

I like 'em. The archvile is notable for having an attack pattern unlike the attack pattern of any other monster in the game, which means the player has to use unique strategies against it. This is a real strength of Doom's monster design overall - most monsters have to be fought in very different ways, which keeps gameplay interesting. What you see too often in other games is enemies that are essentially this other monster, only more so, as in, they have the same behaviour as another monster but have a stronger attack or require more dakka to kill. Encounters with such monsters may be more challenging, but without being more interesting, which is bad.

This is what the Bioshock lead designer reflected upon in this mini essay about the lessons still to be learned from Doom.

I was thinking about that article while I wrote that. It makes me want to play Robotron.

The arch-vile is and always will be my favorite enemy in any game. I was scared to death of it when I was a 6... then it resurrected my interest when I was 12...

Okay, I apologize for the pun.

One of the greatest things about the archie, I think, is in addition to having a unique attack and ability, it is also the most surrreal and intimidating monsters in the game. The noise it makes when it awakens is, unlike almost all of the other monsters, pretty much impossible to imitate. It isn't a roar or a growl or a hiss... it's weird as hell. Then there's that damn laugh... Scariest ambient noise ever!

Snakes said:

Then there's that damn laugh... Scariest ambient noise ever!

Well, as cacomonkey said, I am probably jaded because when I hear that laugh, it's not scary. It's something I hear with disappointment because it usually means a predictable archie fight is about to ensue. There's no "omg omg omg where is he" anymore just "oh well, come on then, let's get this shit over and done with because I can feel my interest in the map fading by the second".

Most of the time I just find them utterly dull, boring and predictable to fight - because of how they are used (agreed, that's not the fault of the archie perse). I recognise their uniqueness and their cleverness but... yeah, jaded probably covers it.

And the death animation is still crap. :P

I love the Arch Vile. Not necessarily how it always gets used, but the monster itself is great.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/866132
This.

Snakes said:

Scariest ambient noise ever!

Agreed! Well, at least the creepiest ambience noise in Doom. Whenever I hear it, my first reaction is just to hunt it down and kill it before he causes any trouble!

I do agree, at least it's my most favourable out of the bunch.

I myself have not had any significant trouble dealing with them (past and present), but upon first appearance they were definitely a shock to the system, because its sheer power in comparison to the rest of the enemies was overwhelming at the time, and they stood out the most overall through my first Doom 2 experience, so i did dread their encounters.

Now however, i can in most cases dispose of them without dealing any damage, which in a way weakens its threat level, which destroys the fear, and i hate that.

The only enemy i dread now are the Chaingunners.

I like archviles in almost any situation ; the only thing I dislike about them is when a secret (or worse, the normal path to the exit) requires an AV jump.

It's an interesting enemy that can be used in so many ways.

Archies are cool, when used sparingly. They scared the shit out of me back in the day.

Cool monsters, never thought much about them though.

as for monsters that I find jumpy it has to be those damn Revenants
the damn scream always stresses the crap out of me.

Totally fucking agree. I was talking to my brother who's all about L4D and TF2 and HL and he did mention that while he hates archviles, he thinks they are the coolest monster he's ever encountered in any game. I couldn't agree more.

I'd like to see some less annoying lower tier archviles added in the beastiary. Like archviles that cant ressurect monsters and deal less damage per attack and have about the same health as pinky demons or revenants.

I don't think the future of gaming creates as many opportunities for creative monsters like the Archvile. The Archvile had to have been created as an excuse to reuse Doom's BFG action instead of creating an entirely new attack, and disguising it with a target of yellow flames. Games in this era have no limitations for anything, which erases people's requirements to be improvisational and innovative in games. If you can think it you can make it. Which is nice to an extent, but what I am impressed with the most is people's abilities to create new things using the resources provided for them and to work around the limitations.

Creaphis said:

I like 'em. The archvile is notable for having an attack pattern unlike the attack pattern of any other monster in the game, which means the player has to use unique strategies against it. This is a real strength of Doom's monster design overall - most monsters have to be fought in very different ways, which keeps gameplay interesting. What you see too often in other games is enemies that are essentially this other monster, only more so, as in, they have the same behaviour as another monster but have a stronger attack or require more dakka to kill. Encounters with such monsters may be more challenging, but without being more interesting, which is bad.

I'm not sure about that. Gimmick enemies have become rather popular in later FPS games, where almost every enemy aside from the most generic mooks have some special attribute (usually a highly annoying one) or force you to use a specific strategy to defeat them. For an example of this mindset taken way too far, see the Realm667 Bestiary.

40oz said:

I'd like to see some less annoying lower tier archviles added in the beastiary. Like archviles that cant ressurect monsters and deal less damage per attack and have about the same health as pinky demons or revenants.

I have coded exactly such an enemy using Eriance's Hellion sprites, called simply the Vile. The Vile has 300 hitpoints instead of 700 and has two attacks--the first is a version of the fire attack that not only does less damage (32 instead of around 80) but deals damage continuously over a couple of seconds instead of all in one big bang, while the second is a powerful fireball. I haven't put it on the Bestiary because reusing the sprites of an existing enemy for a new Bestiary monster doesn't feel right, but it's rather interesting to fight and will appear in WildWeasel's Agent Hernandez mod.

Woolie Wool said:

I'm not sure about that. Gimmick enemies have become rather popular in later FPS games, where almost every enemy aside from the most generic mooks have some special attribute (usually a highly annoying one) or force you to use a specific strategy to defeat them. For an example of this mindset taken way too far, see the Realm667 Bestiary.

Examples?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I honestly can't think of ANY FPS enemies that aren't all about "SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE". Unless you mean near-miniboss enemies (MW2's Juggers come to mind...FUCK I HATE THEM ARRGHAKBALIDJAMKD).

Agreed, 100%: the most dynamic monster, ever! It'd be cool enough with just the most lethal ranged attack in the game, but the ability to also resurrect monsters makes the gameplay possibilities endless.

It's funny listening to people complain simultaneously about them not being used right or being too difficult. An AV poorly placed can be dealt with easily(in which case, it isn't terribly important). On the other hand, if used 'right' they can make a level darn near impossible without some forethought. Which is preferable?

Woolie Wool said:

and will appear in WildWeasel's Agent Hernandez mod.

Maybe. I'm thinking about trimming the fat at some point, in efforts not to make Hernandez into another AEOD.

I want to add the looks of the AV! So damn evil. It doesnt make me think of some demon from hell, as the other monsters do, but more of an....cosmic entity of unknown origins and of which thou shalt not speak! lol, haha, but seriously..

I basically agree with everything Enjay said. Archie haters unite!

Mr. Freeze said:

Examples?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but I honestly can't think of ANY FPS enemies that aren't all about "SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE". Unless you mean near-miniboss enemies (MW2's Juggers come to mind...FUCK I HATE THEM ARRGHAKBALIDJAMKD).

Poison Headcrabs in Half Life 2? Those take a little evasive maneuvering, I think.

Dealing with archviles becomes exponentially more difficult as their numbers increase. You only to get up to four before the simple task of clearing an otherwise empty room becomes utterly mind-crushingly impossible.

The scenarios seem to work like this:

One: Whuh oh, quick, find cover! Hah, found it, now I can SSG snipe him with ease. Take that, fiend! Hahaha! *little victory dance*

Two: Oh shit, better find cover from that attack - argh, no, the other one's found me, better leg it AGHHH the other one got me... okay, 2% health, might be able to manage this if I just OHSNAP they're both attacking now - nothing else to do, better run down this long corrid- I'm dead.

Three: OHSHITOHSHITOHSHITOH- *brutally raped for about 10 save/loads*

Four: ADHSAFJHASKFJAHFHJAFHGDSAKJGDGLG;:;::;: *quit game in disgust*

And that is why I hate them.

Jimmy91 said:

*quit game in disgust*

Thats what happened, as i reached "Arch-Violence" in Plutonia 2. From the beginning it felt like an "official" Plutonia sequel, but this map destroyed the whole megawad for me.

That is a good example of mis/overusing the Arch-Vile. While i like AVs for they can add much to the gameplay and fun of a map, it is essential to use them wise, because it is a dance on a wire.
It can make a map outstanding great or utter shit.

cybdmn said:

Thats what happened, as i reached "Arch-Violence" in Plutonia 2. From the beginning it felt like an "official" Plutonia sequel, but this map destroyed the whole megawad for me.

It did the opposite in my case, i found it quite favourable. I can tolerate up to 3 Arch-viles at one time, providing there's up to 2 forms of cover to fairly evade their attacks. 4 or over will cause me to abuse loading unless there's sufficient cover and i'm not completely surrounded.

I don't know if 15 years makes it easier or not, but they're not my biggest threat, nor have they effectively ruined a map or forced me to bail out.

To put the blame on any specific amount of archviles is ludicrous, in my opinion. Much like any monster, it's how you choose to use them. I've seen maps where lone archviles were poorly used*, I've seen maps where groups of 10+ archviles were extremely well used.

*few and far between, though ; it's tough to really use a monster poorly in Doom IMHO, there's just players who don't like being pushed out of their comfort zone and will complain about it. :p

Jimmy91 said:

Two: Oh shit, better find cover from that attack - argh, no, the other one's found me, better leg it AGHHH the other one got me... okay, 2% health, might be able to manage this if I just OHSNAP they're both attacking now - nothing else to do, better run down this long corrid- I'm dead.

Yah I'd have to go with this one ^ :P I hate 'em as they always appear when you have almost no cover or you are standing on a tight bridge with a long way down to go, and then they fire ball you, and kncok you off. Icon of Sin is a shining example of that scenario.