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cacomonkey

Fastest OpenGL source port engine for WADS?

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I can run GZDoom for a bit, close it when I'm finished, and start it up again, but when I start it up for the second time, *POOP*.

I can run UT2004, Counter-Strike 1.6, DarkPlaces Quake 1 with high settings OpenGL, Quake 2 OpenGL high settings, Quake 3, Quake Live, and the list goes on and on.

GZDoom is one out of a million here. Seriously if you want to blame my hardware, its not like I can run anything. It is a piece of trash Intel card, but seriously, come on.

I know a LOT of people that would want to play some doom in OpenGL but can't without getting annoyed. The only option is worship NVidea and buy every card they release the day it comes out. Seriously, nobody wants to do that.

If I wanted to have stupid, pointless, roundabout replies, I would've posted here: http://www.4chan.org/

If you wanted to show someone where their point was misguided, point it out with a reply that is actually about the point, not something around it to make it look less important.

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Graf Zahl said:

I find it pathetic that he claims to know everything but dismisses other people's experiments out of hand and then in the end forcing an end to the discussion because he doesn't like it.

Vortex Cortex (on Skulltag Forums) said:

PM me or any Dev / Admin if you want it unlocked.

Vortex Cortex (on Doomworld) said:

I told you to PM me or any other dev / admin if you wanted to unlock it and discuss it further.


How many times do you need to be told something until you comprehend it? The thread was closed because it was going off the rails, but they were perfectly willing to continue the conversation. But once again, poor old Graf is somehow the victim here.

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Graf - I love the fact that you gave ZDoom an OpenGL renderer at all, and certainly one that is LIGHT FUCKING YEARS better than the piece of crap known as ZDoomGL.

But the fact remains - you don't listen to people. You act like a pompous snob about things - you're elitist, and that's where a lot of the "Graf hate" comes in.

I never purchased an ATI card for hobby or development... I did it out of curiosity. And I liked it - even though it had its fair share of issues. (Honestly, so does nVidia - from the first card I ever bought, they had their fair share of bugs too)

I'm sick and tired of seeing ATI / nVidia FUD. Everyone is always saying one is better than the other. You know what my opinion is? THEY BOTH SUCK! Yeah, that's right, I just put them both down. They both have bugs, they both do things inefficiently, it's just that both of them have their problems occur in different areas than the other, which makes both better at certain things than the other. This is one thing any 3D programmer must be aware of. But thankfully, BOTH companies are far better than Intel with GPU design - I will never understand for the life of me what compelled them to attempt something like that. They're better with CPU's - they should stick to that.

So why am I posting this? Maybe it's some hopeless attempt to appeal to you, Graf, to at least start treating people better. I realize you probably don't care, but it's the least you can do if you want someone to help you with GZDoom. Unlike Vortex Cortex, I do think the code is salvagable, but it will probably never be as good as something rewritten from scratch like he is proposing.

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You know what?

I just don't have the time to do this. And since everybody seems to believe that the current code is not good I decided to pull it.

There you have it! No more GZDoom!

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Doomsphere said:

If you don't want criticism or suggestions, why would you release the engine in the first place?


Because maybe no one else is doing any OpenGL stuff with updated codebase? I don't see Timmie anywhere, and Torr Samaho, who has contributed some good GL features, has the whole set of bugs and features of Skulltag to keep him busy.

There are people who actually like GL rendering who also want to keep up with ZDoom features, so Graf keeps doing what he's doing. Maybe until a "good" GL programmer makes an updated GL Zdoom port and gets all the GL Zdoom fanbase, but I don't see that happening. Graf can't work with ATI currently. I don't expect him to go out and but a new graphics card just to address its issues in a port he works on for free. You all can hope that someone willing to work on ATI problems comes along and contributes to GZDoom or writes a new renderer, but till then, we aren't paying anything for all this stuff.

On topic, for me, software rendering gives me all the speed I need in Doom.

EDIT: Wow, weird how a simple "fastest port" thread incited so much craziness.

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Graf Zahl said:

You know what?

I just don't have the time to do this. And since everybody seems to believe that the current code is not good I decided to pull it.

There you have it! No more GZDoom!


Welp, at least this isn't the first time ZDoom has been without a working and up-to-date OpenGL renderer.

ClonedPickle said it best, I think...

ClonedPickle said:

Yeah, god forbid you actually take criticism positively, just take your ball and go home.

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Yeah, he actually deleted his entire GZDoom subfolder.

I turned off his FTP account... he won't be putting anything on there again.

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AlexMax said:

Welp, at least this isn't the first time ZDoom has been without a working and up-to-date OpenGL renderer.

Looks like you are happy.

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SoulPriestess said:

I turned off his FTP account... he won't be putting anything on there again.


Wait, just cause of this thread and his behavior? No one wants to cool down and .... continue the status quo? Oh wait, no one seemed happy back then, either.

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I have enough skill to at least maintain it and keep it up to date with ZDoom, but I won't be able to do bug-fixes on it, or even optimizations.

It's more likely someone will just have to start a new GL renderer for ZDoom. And for the love of god, I'd like to to be included in ZDoom next time rather than just some child port.


phi108 said:

Wait, just cause of this thread and his behavior? No one wants to cool down and .... continue the status quo? Oh wait, no one seemed happy back then, either.

No, because he actually deleted it.

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SoulPriestess said:

Yeah, he actually deleted his entire GZDoom subfolder.

I turned off his FTP account... he won't be putting anything on there again.


While you are at it, why don't you delete the forum. I won't need it anymore.

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First we drive off a great speedrunner.

Now we see the death of a source port due to a big shit-throwing fest.

This community is going to destroy itself from the inside with all of this ridiculous infighting and playground-level drama. Shameful.

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Graf Zahl said:

While you are at it, why don't you delete the forum. I won't need it anymore.


Why? People will still be using GZdoom until a better alternative is created.

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Graf Zahl said:

You know what?

I just don't have the time to do this. And since everybody seems to believe that the current code is not good I decided to pull it.

There you have it! No more GZDoom!


... wait wut?

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entryway said:

Looks like you are happy.


What else am I supposed to say? "Oh Graf please we're just kidding, your port is perfect, please continue maintaining it?" Graf has been an unrepentant asshole since day one, but what grinds my gears is that he's attempting to take out his inability to handle criticism on the greater ZDoom community by yanking his stuff offline instead of readjusting his attitude. That is monumental asshattery that ranks right up there with why_'s exit stage left. I can only assume he's trying to pit the ZDoom people against the Skulltag people, but at the end of the day, there's only one person who actually pressed that delete button.

I say attempting because it won't do any good. There are hundreds of working copies of his SVN repository floating around, and if anyone is so inclined someone can continue monkeypatching his renderer onto newer versions of ZDoom, like Skulltag has been doing for a while now. Then, if/when a newer renderer comes out, GZDoom will join the ranks of ZDoomGL as a footnote in Doom Source Port history.

So no, I'm not happy when anyone acts so immaturely. I can't say I'm surprised, though.

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Graf Zahl said:

While you are at it, why don't you delete the forum. I won't need it anymore.


Wait... really? Because some guy shows up all pissy and full of appeals to authority? Really? You have a decent userbase that's going to miss your work, despite what anyone else says...

Kinda disappointed, I have to admit...

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Regardless of what you guys think of the GZDoom renderer, let's not forget his numerous contributions to ZDoom.

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Graf Zahl said:

You know what?

I just don't have the time to do this. And since everybody seems to believe that the current code is not good I decided to pull it.

There you have it! No more GZDoom!

And this solves what? You are expecting what? Do you feel this is helpful to the situation?

Also while you can pull the site you can't pull the code. Bless you for your good insight in keeping the source open.

On the other side, people like SoulPriestess changing passwords and ftp accounts and the like is just as wrong. It's not productive in any way and is really not needed.

I think we sometimes have to keep some things in perspective here, and realize that irrational, reactionary responses only build upon each other in a snowball of disaster. I do not say this often, but AlexMax summed things up rather well. Graf is choosing to do the community a disservice by not contributing, but the community will go on. GZDoom will have its place in history and Doom in general will move on to 17,18,19,20 years.

I do not think anyone should rationally expect to not get criticism when releasing something to a hobby community. In fact, you should be more worried when you DON'T receive criticism. It's obvious the criticisms presented by various people are valid. The question is how you choose to handle it. Clearly the anectodal evidence indicates Graf did not handle it well, and as a result his users (actual and potential) respond in kind.

Right now Graf has adopted one of two attitudes: either he's sitting back now saying "Well let's see what they think now!" or he's sincerely butt hurt because some random forum members espouse legitimate complaints of him and his port.

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Today has been a shitty day, and now when I decide to relax, get online and read the forums, my day just gets shittier.

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And still, after years and years of bitching about how much it sucks, there has still been none of that bunch to either help improve it or, if they can't bear to imagine working with Graf, develop a competitor. The only one who has effectively worked on Skulltag's renderer is Torr Samaho (only thing I found by VC was here and it's utterly unrelated to OpenGL), and Torr is actually quite positive about GZDoom.

So who to believe really? The ones who tell they know what they're talking about, or the ones who show they know what they're talking about?

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Gez said:

So who to believe really? The ones who tell they know what they're talking about, or the ones who show they know what they're talking about?


I don't understand how this differentiates those that express criticism of the major issues and those that work on the code, or are you saying that those who criticise are wrong unless they can prove it?

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Gez said:

So who to believe really? The ones who tell they know what they're talking about, or the ones who show they know what they're talking about?

I choose to believe those who are open and polite.

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Mancubus II said:

On the other side, people like SoulPriestess changing passwords and ftp accounts and the like is just as wrong. It's not productive in any way and is really not needed.


I will repeat what I posted on the ZDoom forum:

(In reference to Nash calling me immature for revoking Graf's FTP access)

That's not immaturity, didn't you read the admin handbook?

Think of it as him quitting from a job, if you will. I removed his FTP access because he no longer needs it. And it also has a bit of "protection" built in - in that he cannot sabotage the userbase or the community any more than he already has.

I am quite disappointed that you made such a poorly thought out assumption, Nash.


Will I give it back? If he's going to use it to bring back GZDoom, yes. Otherwise, I will give it to someone who is willing to continue the project. Until someone does, I do plan on doing maintenance updates to at least keep it up to date with ZDoom.

Up to this point, he's deleted his entire site. I don't see any reason that he needs it any more, now, especially with security concerns.

And I know Graf well enough to understand the likelihood that he'll change his mind. I'm basing my decision off of his characteristic behavior, and what I see being the most likely outcome.

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Perhaps the expectations from the public of what gzdoom can do are incorrect? Without the site up it's hard to know exactly, but what are the requirements to run gzdoom? Does it list ATI cards? Why do people even expect it to work on them if it's been made painfully clear that it does not and the (now former?) maintainer has no interest in pursing such compatibility?

Changing the requirements and expectations would resolve a lot IMO.

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