Doom 2 in a Nutshell

Doom 2 in a Nutshell: This is a project to make 1024 sized versions of all 30 original Doom 2 levels. There are two versions of the project, regular and classic. The regular version of the project is to make each level have a nostalgic value to it but each with their own original twists. The classic version of the project is to remake the original Doom 2 levels as close as possible but miniature.


Complete project now released to /idgames database:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=17239

Hi there!

First off, the idea is pretty neat. Having all levels in a nutshell sound interesting to me. You added nice little details to the levels and gave them a bit of extra flavour so you have to think twice and not just run the same path as the originals.

However...

the way you changed the levels was really frustrating to me. You turned even the basic levels into key and sometimes switch hunts. For example the blue key in level 2 -- it's in a WALL? Behind barrels? Seriously? Because of the very cramped levels, I didn't even consider shooting those barrels. I was almost at the point of giving up when I decided to shoot the barrels to see the tiny hole with the key inside.

I gave up on level 3, because I couldn't get the blue card and the arrow on the floor pointed me into a dead end. Frustrating :(

Another thing is that I think you have cramped the maps too much. The gameplay was lacking, I couldn't avoid stuff good enough to make it fun and the worst thing about that was the height16 width32 stairs with enemies on the ground that I couldn't see and because of Zdoom nature, I walked on their heads and they shredded me to death.

Others might like this set, but I found the maps rather key-hunty-frustrating and too cramped for good :/

Thanks for the feedback! That blue key in level 2 is supposed to be hidden to make people more observant but on the way back I could add an arrow. As for the problems you stated in level 3 we will try to address those, but the cramped space can't really be changed without the levels being bigger. Also the switch hunting is supposed to make these levels feel a little longer for their size, however maybe we went a little overboard. We will look into it. Thanks again, this is the kind of feedback we need.

Map01: Is that crusher meant to be a crusher? (the spot in the original that leads to shotgun secret)

Map07: WTF! That was awesome. It's kinda buggy tho (easy to fall off the imp stairs and get stuck, theres a part where u can fall thru near the partial invisibility also.)

Map10: Lol (I was interested in seeing how you fit such a huge map into 1024 grid, oh well...)

Mr. T said:

Map01: Is that crusher meant to be a crusher? (the spot in the original that leads to shotgun secret)

Map07: WTF! That was awesome. It's kinda buggy tho (easy to fall off the imp stairs and get stuck, theres a part where u can fall thru near the partial invisibility also.)

Map10: Lol (I was interested in seeing how you fit such a huge map into 1024 grid, oh well...)

Thanks for playing and having fun. Thanks for the feedback to.
In Map 1, I thought it would be cool to make that a crusher also scince it is outside the map.
That's great Map 7 blew your mind. I will look in to the part were you can fall next the invisibility but due to the insane transforming we may not be-able to fix that.
We didn't do Map 10 because it was to big to make 1024 sized but now to complete all the levels for the magawad we will make Map 10 and include it in the next 10 levels set (Levels 10, 13 trough 21 which should be released in August or sooner)
Also recommend this wad to people you know.
Thanks again, this is the kind of feedback we need.

P.S. I am guessing you had no problem with the difficulty, and finding your way around. You must have not had a problem with Level 8 and the room transforming and then having to walk across the pillars that lower!
Thanks again

Cool! I like it a lot but what's been bothering me so far was how some areas appear to be depicted really accurately while some areas appear to have come out of nowhere. I don't know if this was or wasn't your intention, but I was expecting this to be just tiny versions of all the doom 2 maps.

I've only played up to map03 so far but:

-MAP01, blue key?
-MAP02, the mountains in that part right after you get the red key.
-MAP02, that gray ashwall cave in the part where you drop down into the dark sewer area.

There were a couple other things that I thought were weird too but for the most part i thought it was awesome. Gotta finish playing it now.

40oz said:

Cool! I like it a lot but what's been bothering me so far was how some areas appear to be depicted really accurately while some areas appear to have come out of nowhere. I don't know if this was or wasn't your intention, but I was expecting this to be just tiny versions of all the doom 2 maps.

I've only played up to map03 so far but:

-MAP01, blue key?
-MAP02, the mountains in that part right after you get the red key.
-MAP02, that gray ashwall cave in the part where you drop down into the dark sewer area.

There were a couple other things that I thought were weird too but for the most part i thought it was awesome. Gotta finish playing it now.

Hey Man,
Thanks for playing and enjoying mini Doom 2. We set out to make tiny versions of all the doom 2 maps. But due to the 1024 size not every part of the level could be identical. We also wanted a people who have played Doom 2 many times would play levels looking similar but with new twists to surprise you and make it fresh. So the differences are intentional.

What did you mean by "blue key?" in level 1? I guess you meant Level 2.
In level 2 the gray ashwall cave was to make the underhalls not seem cramped even though you could not explore it.

Keep playing it only gets better. Can't wait to here what you think of the rest of the wad!

PS To our surprise these 1024 versions of the levels could look so similar to the huge original levels!

No he meant the fake blue key door in Map01. I thought that was odd too. I couldn't figure out how to open the secrets in Map01 either:-(

been playing through these, some ok maps, although the monster count seems to go up instead of following the map size going down. I didn't read the txt though and assumed -complevel 2 in prboom+ was ok to FDA on ... nope. map05 (one with the lifts instead of doors if I remember) and 7 (lava pit in center ... lowers to HoMs) were not-completable, and have not gone beyond them. Haven't looked to see exactly what caused them but I have a feeling you mapped in boom or zdoom;doom, where actions aren't always the same. I just read the txt and it says gzdoom so I assumed you mapped in zdoom;doom.

Mr. T said:

No he meant the fake blue key door in Map01. I thought that was odd too. I couldn't figure out how to open the secrets in Map01 either:-(

Oh right I forgot about that. Like I mentioned before,the ash wall cave made the level 2 feel bigger, The blue key door was to make Map 1 feel like the level continued on, to make the player not feel like they are being confined in a small level. Also that is why there is a open part in Map 2 where the mountains go of in the distance and monsters attack you. I will ask my brother to remove the blue key door in Map 1 if you think it will stop players confusion!

Mr. T said:

No he meant the fake blue key door in Map01. I thought that was odd too. I couldn't figure out how to open the secrets in Map01 either:-(

Sorry my brother was writing the last few responses. He didn't realize what you meant because I am the one who made the first level. The blue key door was to make the player feel like the building that the level takes place in is bigger than the confines of the player's mobility. It helps to make the player not feel as confined in such a small sized level. There is no blue key, I just wanted to make the door seem like it is perfectly functional instead of a non-key door that seems broken or inactive. I will change the blue key door to a regular door that does not open if people keep getting confused about it.
SPOILER: The rocket launcher secret in the original 1st level is triggered by going onto the lift and running onto the light that is next to the lift, but because the 'lift' in our level is outside the map border the secret had to be activated a slightly different way. So in our level you still run onto the light (that is next to the would-be lift) but you run from the steps leading to the window instead. This still opens the rocket launcher room and one other new secret room as well. The armor secret opens the same way as in the original level.

Ah, I love wads like this. Well done, I really enjoyed it to see old levels in a totally new light. The little additions like the dissappearing wall that reveals a view to a mountainside in level 2 were also a nice idea.
I remember another wad that had the exact same concept as yours, it was posted quite a while ago here on Doomworld (the levels in your wad are a lot better though). Was that one also made by you or is it just a coincidence ?

Thanks, you liked our attempts at innovating the levels. It is just coincidence that our levels are similar to the ones you mentioned because we are first time mappers. We just started making Doom levels last September, the first level of this megawad is literally my first level ever aside from random tests. If you could figure out what that other thread was I would like to check it out if it was like our project.

I think he might be referring to my project, which had a near identical concept except it was Doom II levels within 384 space. I stuck as faithfully as possible to the originals.

The thread, screenshots and downloads are here:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/47871-doom2-386/

The project is on hiatus right now. I hit a block on The Pit but I will return to it in a few months maybe.

Just recently played through the whole thing and its very impressive seeing Doom 2 levels in a 1024 size. Plays good besides a strange hom on map 06(the crusher room before you get the keycard) and also its possible to get the red keycard by straferunning in map11.

Philnemba said:

Just recently played through the whole thing and its very impressive seeing Doom 2 levels in a 1024 size. Plays good besides a strange hom on map 06(the crusher room before you get the keycard) and also its possible to get the red keycard by straferunning in map11.

Hi, glad you like it.
I do have answers for you. In level 11 you could strafe-run to get the red key because of the crazy transforming I thought I couldn't raise the middle section any higher, but I just tested and found that it could be higher. So now you can still jump to get the key but not strafe-run to get it (jumping is cheating in our levels). Also now you can't accidentally get the key while in the heat of playing. As for Level 6 we will try to fix the hall of mirrors effect. Thanks for the feed back, it will make theses levels the best they can be for the final mega wad of all 30 levels. Later

PS Were busy working on Levels 10, 12-21!

small ftw! The barrier between the two doors on map01 is a bit narrow, but I really liked this re-envisioning of it!

Needs DM implementation!

The box of rockets in the secret needs the multiplayer flag.

Can't say I'm crazy about the blue key door with no blue key. Back in the day this is the kinda thing that would have had me running around the level for hours and hours humping every wall and lamp post trying to find it.

I'm going to go ahead and say I hate your implementation of this idea completely. You picked up a great idea (1024 sized Doom II!) and then decided to go on a tangent with it.

I feel I should mention I played on Skill 3.

Playing MAP01 made me go "Huh, no lift? what's with the stupid blue key door that's distracting me by making me look around for a nonexistant key? Why can't I go outside? Activating the rocket launcher secret is a heck of a lot harder without a proper launch point."

MAP02 was extremely cramped, but the original was as well. Then you decided to shift the underground tech base to underground cave (which makes enough sense for me to shrug) and to above ground field (which makes me go 0_0 because while the original map had sky in it a field seemed a bit of a stretch). The worst part about MAP02 is the pointless railroading of the corridors (with those really ugly columns, though I do like the way you used them as a bridge) and the fact that there's an extremely large portion of the map that you want to go out to that you can't because of a rather arbitrary fence. Even with the knowledge that it was 1024 compliant, the fence felt like you were waving a piece of meat at me while I was starving.

MAP03 is where it broke down. The amount that you changed stuff was extremely frustrating; the fake blue doors near the other REAL doors was stupid; requiring an extra key was absolutely retarded; and then the effect with the imps and the cage just made me wonder why you bothered. It's also about this time that I notice just how many monsters you're throwing at me and how little health and ammo I'm getting in comparison to the crampedness.

MAP04 was another iffy one. A pointless backtrack quest was added to get the key, and then you needlessly expanded the warehouse portion. The trap with the extra chaingunner near the end was good, and I liked the soulsphere secret (but thought you could conserve a lot of space in that room).

MAP05 was unimpressive. Those halls are far far too small to have any hell knights or similar in them. The blue key door next to the red key was stupid. I didn't appreciate the whole teleporting in 3 cacodemons at the end when you have limited ammo and inventory and the rocket launcher is out of the question because of the space that is now smaller with the extra cacos.

MAP06 was where I was about to quit. After going through the whole thing at the start (I kinda thought it interesting to start at the bottom of this map) I reached the revenant room. This wasn't exactly a fun room, but I was wondering why the back part that lowers in the original level doesn't in your version. Also, the broken bridge in the bit after that is complete bullshit. It's another example of putting stuff where the player can see it and expecting him not to care. Also the red key pedestal there was just annoying with the extra lift you had to press and all. Then the worst part of this level came at the very end, just before the exit: spawning two mancubi right next to me in a tiny hallway at an angle where I can't hit them from outside it and then bringing a hell knight in to block me when I try to go through the door to the exit. This nearly made me give up, but I decided to play the next map and decide.

MAP07 was pretty good, actually, but I was approaching it rather cranky and you still had a ridiculous amount of junk I could see and not touch with enemies and such. I suggest making your walls for the area much much skinnier, and also moving the exit switch to the middle because it interrupts the continuous nature of the outside. The imp platforms lended themselves nicely to pissing me off, though, what with me falling down and having no teleporter or anything to get back up. I was still rather angry at the rest of the wad thus far, so that was when I decided to come post this. Also, the switch at the start was gun activated, strangely enough, which I don't think you intended.

Things that go for all the maps:
* Lots and lots of stuff I can see and places with monsters that look like I can get to but can't. This is a big big no no. If you've got Team Fortress 2 you should listen to the commentary on tc_hydro about invisible walls and how they should work, but if not just know that if there is SOMETHING there, whether it's geometry or monsters or whatever, the player will want to explore, and preventing him from doing so will frustrate him.
* A general lack of health and ammo and a poisonous surplus of monsters compared to the size of the maps is also a frustrater. I shouldn't be unhappy with difficulty on skill 3 like this; it speaks poorly of your play-testing.
* FAKE DOORS ARE FUCKING STUPID! Fake key doors are especially bad, because they convince you of an objective that isn't there. Also related: arbitrary keys and key-doors. Not really good stuff, trust me. Streamline, don't add distracting detail.
* You seem to be using the little beginning doors and the exit doors as switches. I would discourage this by convention. Doom players are trained to expect certain things by previous exposure, and if you're attempting to get nostalgia factor out of the player changing the way the switches and doors are presented is not a good way.

You DO seem like you have a competent understanding of how a map is laid out, but you seem to not be taking other people's expectations into view when constructing design, and you seem to just throw enemies at the player regardless of map geometry. I would not suggest this as a first project. Instead, I think it'd be better if you honed your skills in another set of maps that aren't related to any others; that way you're not going to have any expectations to live up to regarding quality and you can focus on developing your own style. Plus it'd probably be a better show of your creativity.

ler said:

I'm going to go ahead and say I hate your implementation of this idea completely. You picked up a great idea (1024 sized Doom II!) and then decided to go on a tangent with it.

You DO seem like you have a competent understanding of how a map is laid out, but you seem to not be taking other people's expectations into view when constructing design, and you seem to just throw enemies at the player regardless of map geometry. I would not suggest this as a first project. Instead, I think it'd be better if you honed your skills in another set of maps that aren't related to any others; that way you're not going to have any expectations to live up to regarding quality and you can focus on developing your own style. Plus it'd probably be a better show of your creativity.

Hi, Thanks for playing. Your constructive feedback is the kind we were looking for from the start. Your frustration is dully noted. I will write an in depth response to each paragraph later.
I agree with you that there should be less monsters. In These first 11 levels we got a little carried away. The fake blue doors we will removed.

I would like to ask you if you would play levels 8 through 11 so that we may get your in depth feed back. I know you frustated by the other levels but an in depth reveiw of the rest of the levels will help us make them better so other don't get mad and stop playing.
Thank You

Hellbent said:

small ftw! The barrier between the two doors on map01 is a bit narrow, but I really liked this re-envisioning of it!

Needs DM implementation!

The box of rockets in the secret needs the multiplayer flag.

Can't say I'm crazy about the blue key door with no blue key. Back in the day this is the kinda thing that would have had me running around the level for hours and hours humping every wall and lamp post trying to find it.

That is great you like how level 1 turn out. I don't think the barrier between the two doors is too small. The fake blue key door will be changed so you don't need the blue key and will only open partially.
I also agree that level 1 could use a death match implementation. So HEY, good news for you, we have decided to make all the levels have a multilayer implementation! (no matter how insane it may be)
Right now we making small changes to the levels so we add the multilayer stuff and we will repost an updated project. I'll quote you agian to tell you when the we have posted the updated version!

I agree with ler that this was essentially a good idea executed in a way that's likely to rub Doomers the wrong way.

Missing out on a few really key design aspects, for example the MAP01 lift, and then adding in a bunch of stuff that wasn't there in the first place really removes the enjoyment for me. I would rather see something that mirrors the layout of the originals, even if that means fewer monsters or a slightly smaller room somewhere, than extra areas invented from your imagination. Don't be afraid to use original monster placement, Chaingunners in the water on MAP03 would have been great, even if they totally kick your ass.

I also felt the contrast between the cramped playing tunnels and the inaccessible large outer parts was too much. On their own, each style is fine, but having such small tunnels then a HUGE yard or cave full of Imps seems unbalanced from a visual and gameplay point of view.

One thing I'd like to commend you on was managing to create small areas that aren't a pain in the ass to move around in. It's very easy to make tiny maps where the player can get caught up in small tunnels and on jaggies but there wasn't really any of that here, so well done in that aspect.

If I had to offer any advice, it's stay more true to the original design of the maps. I also like to see projects where modification is allowed, I think that's especially fair in this case, considering you're basing your maps off others' designs in the first place.

If you want some ideas on making tiny Doom, check out cycloid's Congestion 384 which is basically the same thing but a third of the size and executed rather well.

The intent of our project is to make levels with the essence of the original Doom 2 levels not just to remake them smaller. But since a few of you in the Doom community seem to feel so strongly that the original levels should be kept intact we have decided to make two versions, one with our twists and changes and one that is as close to the original levels as possible. A few of the later levels won't be very different in either version though because since those levels are so big we had been planning to remake only a few rooms of the levels.

For example:
map 15 - the end building with the wood theme and the dungeon room at the end
map 16 - the two buildings at the very beginning of the level in the middle of the map
map 20 - the room with the cyberdemon and spider masatermind
map 24 - the green maze at the beginning and some thin walkways
map 28 - the white cave room with the arch-vile and the exit room
maps 10, 12, 23, and 27 - we have no idea yet what we will do

So if there are are suggestions on what we should do differently let us know.

Super Jamie said:

I agree with ler

Well of course, he's the brain and you're the stomach, look at yourselves.

InvertCube said:

and one that is as close to the original levels as possible

Cool :)

By the way, kudos for taking so much criticism so well. It's hard when people aren't too keen on something you've put so much time into. What you've made overall is pretty good, just with a few burrs that I guess touch some sensitive "classic Doomer" spots.

We've had new mappers chuck huge forum-drama tantrums for far less, so please do know your open mind and positive outlook are very much appreciated around here.

I'm quite excited to see your future developments.

printz said:

Well of course, he's the brain and you're the stomach, look at yourselves.

lol, I only just noticed

Yeah we figured it's not that out of our way to make two versions so why not please the community. There's a chance that no one else would ever make it and we'll already have the basis for all the levels so if someone somewhere really eagerly wants to play the originals miniaturized they don't need to be disappointed. Besides, if we were in your place wanting to have the original maps as close as possible and the guys making this didn't do it despite them being able to without much more effort than they were already doing we'd be rather annoyed.

Anyways this project is something that some people might keep around on their hard drives rather than play once and discard. That was part of the motivation to make this project because we love Doom 2 and we know most Doomers do so we can get our names known and people will (hopefully) be more interested to check out our original stuff in the future rather than if we had just released original levels in the first place.

lol, Not making the Original levels as close as possible would be like how George Lucas only released the modified versions of Star Wars IV, V, and VI fully restored but hasn't release the original versions fully restored. If that metaphor makes sense to anyone.

InvertCube said:

If that metaphor makes sense to anyone.

It certainly does. Oh how my blood boils every time I hear that ridiculous new song in Jabba's Palace!

Maybe it's my slow computer but this is the first set of 1024 maps to kick my loving ass. How do you do it? A++

cool. It will be very interesting to see how you miniaturize levels like The Factory, even 'O' Of Destruction :-)

I can envisage a little 'O' in a 1024 space, that with some creativity could be very fun.

BilboHicks said:

cool. It will be very interesting to see how you miniaturize levels like The Factory, even 'O' Of Destruction :-)

I can envisage a little 'O' in a 1024 space, that with some creativity could be very fun.

he already did O of destruction. and it plays awesome.