NM-Max?

In prboom, it seems that in NM if you re-kill something that respawned it doesn't count again towards kills, therefor NM-max is possible, does anyone else think we should start differentiating NM-100 and NM-Max due to this?

Yeah, I have a couple of demos that fit that category. Just wondering if anyone else wanted that category back in. NM-100% sounds to me like demos with 100%-all only though, which could be yet another category.

Rekilled monsters do count towards kills percentage. Note that most UV Respawn demos feature some monsters being skipped and others being killed more than once. I think what you mean is the smart totals in prboom+'s HUD. That does help with verification of some demos, it is true, notably Maxes on maps with a boss shooter.

My understanding of NM Max would be an NM with 100% secrets where every monster is killed at least once. There aren't many maps where that is a very realistic proposition, as on most maps, you can't be sure which monsters are ones you haven't killed, and which are respawned ones. It may happen by accident sometimes, but there are very few demos where this has been done deliberately.

So it's unlikely be to anything more than a pretty minor category really. As far as I remember, I did one once (Re18Nxxx.lmp), but that was only because most of the monsters were barons that needed to be dead simultaneously in order for the exit to open - and the remaining few monsters got caught in the crossfire.

Also, NM100S is very well established as a category, so there's no point redefining it.

This looks like an appropriate point for me to plug my old DHT3 demopack. It'd be interesting to see this style of play on some early Doom pwads as well, since UV Max is too easy and UV -fast too slow. Doom II levels would probably be a lot harder though, what with the tougher monsters and changed weaponry balance.

A category I'd like to see is Nightmare Respawn - all the rules of a standard UV Respawn run, but on skill 5. That'd offer a lot of opportunity for creative runs, even on very hard maps.

Grazza said:

There aren't many maps where that is a very realistic proposition, as on most maps, you can't be sure which monsters are ones you haven't killed, and which are respawned ones.

In OpenGL mode you can see who is 'alive' (and where is actually) in real time by means of "Show Alive Monsters" key-bind.

I agree with Ryback, early pwads are way too easy. Sometimes they're easy even on NM :( Been playing through twzone.wad wad on NM and it's really fun. Makes the easyness of the levels go away.

entryway said:

In OpenGL mode you can see who is 'alive' (and where is actually) in real time by means of "Show Alive Monsters" key-bind.

Isn't that technically a tool assist?

Quasar said:
Isn't that technically a tool assist?

Not if you use it while watching the demo you recorded earlier, which I suspect is what he was insinuating. In any case, what entryway said doesn't address what Grazza mentioned, as the monsters you see alive also include ones that have respawned, unless the feature works only on things that have never been killed. (I haven't tested it.)

myk said:

unless the feature works only on things that have never been killed. (I haven't tested it.)

Yes. It works in such way.

Ryback said:

A category I'd like to see is Nightmare Respawn - all the rules of a standard UV Respawn run, but on skill 5. That'd offer a lot of opportunity for creative runs, even on very hard maps.

I agree - that would be an interesting category, and at least as "natural" as UV Respawn. More danger to the player, but less need for ammo conservation. Perhaps more emphasis on encouraging infighting?

Heh, maybe respawn could be called "bully" because it encourages the player to pick on the weaker monsters and possibly ignore the stronger ones.