If we want classic DOOM, then we should play classic DOOM!

So as QuakeCon 2010 approaches and the first glimpse of DOOM IV nears, I find myself simultaneously excited and fearful of what we will see. I love the original DOOM games and liked DOOM 3, but I thought 3 should've just been a different IP since it wasn't really DOOM. I find myself wishing that DOOM IV would just be an updated DOOM I/II, but then I ask myself, "if I really want more DOOM/DOOM II, can't I just play some of the finest megawads out there?"

Seriously! Each 32 level megawad out there could be called DOOM 4, 5, 6,..., and it'd be exactly what a lot of us want -- more DOOM II!

So if we have literally thousands of maps to play, shouldn't that be enough classic doom? Shouldn't we embrace new ideas from id as they go on to make more DOOM games?

Thoughts?

I would prefer Id to not milk it's baby to death the way other franchises are (Command and Conquer, Zelda, etc) and let them explore some new things without being totally constricted to the Doom IP.

Maybe if some of the oldschool id mappers made a brand new 32 level Boom compatible megawad for Doom 2 and released it to the archives, that would be awesome.

Despite how vast and long lasting the Doom mod community is, we're still a minority. We're a cult interest group. id wants to use the Doom label to bring in new, modern kinds to fork out cash and us too of course.

Since the consoles are all about making sequels to classic old games, and now in their original gameplay styles, it is possible to do a sequel to a very old game while preserving the feel of the source material. The problem with Doom 3 is that it didn't FEEL like Doom. Sure, the imagery was there. But the gameplay wasn't anything like it.

I wish that id would have made Doom 3 back around 1996, with a new engine, but updating (read: not changing, but updating) and adding to everything that was great about the originals, rather than put out the bland, generic Quake. John Romero pretty much admitted that he stuck a Doom game in the new engine and they called it Quake. But it showed that the creativity wasn't there.

My only issue with playing so many megawads is that we are basically killing the same enemies with the same weapons over and over again. I want the real deal. But it's probably too late for that.

bimlanders said:

My only issue with playing so many megawads is that we are basically killing the same enemies with the same weapons over and over again. I want the real deal. But it's probably too late for that.

If we didn't *want* to do that most of us wouldn't be here anymore...

I'd like id to do something totally different and interesting. I mean really break the mould completely and do something totally unlike the stuff that they have been churning out for years now.

Sadly, the current industry environment and id's position in it means that they are probably just going to play it safe just like all the other sequel game manufacturers out there.

Mr. Chris said:

Command and Conquer, Zelda, etc

Not to forget the worst example of them all: Star Wars

bimlanders said:

My only issue with playing so many megawads is that we are basically killing the same enemies with the same weapons over and over again. I want the real deal. But it's probably too late for that.

*cough*ZDoom*cough*

Thoughts?

There's certainly more than enough quality PWADS to just keep playing Classic Doom, and ports do a great job at enhancing the experience, as long as you choose the one that fits what you're looking for.

I wouldn't mind if ID took the Nintendo approach, though ; rebooting old franchises while keeping the same core gameplay. I thought New Mario Bros on Wii was a blast to play while staying very close to the feel of the original games. Something like that for Doom could be great.

LogicDeLuxe said:

Not to forget the worst example of them all: Star Wars

Actually, Star Wars vary in games styles and genres very much. Longest series of Star Wars Games were the Dark Forces which actually changed halfways too. Prime example of stagnating gameplay is Final Fantasy.

EDIT: Forgot the freespace simulators - there are more games in XWing/Tie fighter series than in Dark Forces series. Hell I almost never played these games and still I miss them. Do anybody even make space simulators nowadays?

bimlanders said:

Since the consoles are all about making sequels to classic old games, and now in their original gameplay styles, it is possible to do a sequel to a very old game while preserving the feel of the source material. The problem with Doom 3 is that it didn't FEEL like Doom. Sure, the imagery was there. But the gameplay wasn't anything like it.

Well, if you want Doom 3 to feel like Doom, Then just reskin the JDoom zombie models and imps to look like Doom 3 guys, and recreate the doom3 monster models for JDoom or whatever. Thats what I'm doing :P

bimlanders said:

My only issue with playing so many megawads is that we are basically killing the same enemies with the same weapons over and over again. I want the real deal. But it's probably too late for that.

I played an entire oblige megawad that's only monsters were imps and I swear to god I wasn't bored for a second.

I'll try doom 4, and if it's like doom3 or any other modern shooter (i.e. running "normal" speed), I probably won't get into it.

I wouldn't mind if they took doom in a new direction - doom 3 felt like an old direction to me

/contradiction

I kinda like the more realistic approach. I really hope they don't make it like Painkiller or whatever like I feel some people want. I'm not into the whole, kill waves after waves thing (although invasion mode in Skulltag is fun because that's for multiplayer).

I like how in Doom the levels had puzzles and keys to collect and switches to press. Painkiller just felt like a pointless game to me without much depth although it had it's fun moments. I mostly got tired of trying to unlock the cards, but at the same time I couldn't resist. I was like, mann I have to get the cards!!!!

But anyway, I hope Doom 4 is like Doom 3 atmosphere wise and with badass characters and story... But yeah I definitely want more action and guns to kill monsters faster so I don't have to expend half a clip to kill a zombie. I wanna run in with a chaingun and just mow through hordes of them instead of tediously fighting them one at a time.

Id is making Rage which at the time it was thought up was kindof original. Then Fallout 3 came out :|...

It'd be cool maybe if they did a Quake 1 style quake. The strogg are badass and all that but they could do a horror game in the style of quake 1 as well but it'd probably be a lot like Doom 3 with a more H.P. Lovecraft dimensional style theme rather than hellish.

Since Wolfenstein, id pretty much makes FPSes now and I love FPSes so I wouldn't exactly be super thrilled or anything if they decided to make a puzzle game or a platformer. Carmack focuses on making engines suited to FPSes anyway. It wouldn't make sense to use id tech 5 for an RTS... Well actually maybe it would? The new megatexture technology would work great for large environments... But if he was making an RTS engine, he'd have very different goals and not try to make things look amazing up close. Starcraft 2 looks great I think, no need for an insane megatexture like engine there... And a third person shooter doesn't need nearly as amazing an engine as an FPS since the player can't put his nose up to a wall and think, MAN THIS TEXTURE LOOKS AWFUL AND LOW RES like I do with Half Life 2. I remember playing Deadspace and loved the graphics then I noticed the textures weren't even that detailed if you look at them from a certain angle...

I only hope that Doom 4 at least feels like Doom altogether. Regarding classic Doom, while its graphics may not have aged so well, it's still fun as hell to play even with just the vanilla executables.

Yaknow my favorite WADs out there are DOOM.WAD and DOOM2.WAD. I've played a million custom wads and the experience is never quite the same. Those that get paid to do it must just know something we don't. I haven't played No Rest for the Living, but seeing the videos for it I get the same vibe as the original DOOM IWADs. Final DOOM didn't do much for me, but that didn't seem as professional for a lot of reasons. But I say, the more oppurtunities there are for pros to create levels the better.

NT

I'll likely get Doom 4 as soon as it comes out (just like I did Doom 3), though I don't really expect it to be like anything like the original Doom.

NaturalTvventy said:

Final DOOM didn't do much for me, but that didn't seem as professional for a lot of reasons. But I say, the more oppurtunities there are for pros to create levels the better.

I would have disagree. Plutonia is a very solid map set that felt very consistent. Plutonia was my game of choice when Doom was still relatively new. Sure it wasn't made by the id team, but I had no clue at the time and was surprised later to find out Plutonia was made by two people.

Doom 3 sucked major ass.

What I want is a game which focus not on story and mood and scary stuff or whatever, I want a game where the goal is "get to the exit, then onto the next level". NO fucking boring story or whatever. I know there is a story in Doom and Doom 2, but seriously, who cares? Make individual maps that kick ass, dont bother with contiouty (SP???)

Graf Zahl said:

If we didn't *want* to do that most of us wouldn't be here anymore...

Not my argument. Megawads can be great. But it's still just Doom 1 or Doom 2. It's not the next logical game after...

hobomaster22 said:

I'll likely get Doom 4 as soon as it comes out (just like I did Doom 3), though I don't really expect it to be like anything like the original Doom.



I would have disagree. Plutonia is a very solid map set that felt very consistent. Plutonia was my game of choice when Doom was still relatively new. Sure it wasn't made by the id team, but I had no clue at the time and was surprised later to find out Plutonia was made by two people.

Some of the plutonia levels struck me as random and not a piece of the whole. Also, there were numerous levels with virtual dead ends. There was one level where I couldn't progress to the end without finding some random part of the wall to shoot. Then of course there's the fuck up with the yellow key in Map31. Overall, it's a good levelset, though.

Edit: I confused Pluntonia for TNT so reapply these comments to TNT. Oops!

I thought the missing key error was for TNT's MAP31, not Plutonia's MAP31.

Regardless of how different Doom 4 could turn out to be, I consider Doom 64 to be the true "Doom 3" because of the balance between old and new, and it wasn't even made by id Software only!

It kept all of the classic weapons that handled the same way, most of the monsters from Doom II (and I emphasize the fact that their difficulty regarding weapon/health ratios was so similar to the originals), and ~30 levels with some secret ones; levels that followed a semi-linear progression with the three colored keys/skulls, including the remake of Dead Simple.
It also offered something beyond being just a megawad which was the laser weapon, final boss, darker sounds and music (IMO the greatest change D64 had), redesigned monsters/weapons, of course new levels with some colored lighting and moving effects, different textures and skys, etc.

Definitely the perfect balance keeping the Doom gameplay while adding new things and an entire level campaign.

I just want a run and gun. I liked the feel of Doom 3 in terms of atmosphere, but it progressed so slow, and it was almost always 1 on 1 encounters in slow moving fights.

I rather like running at the speed of sound in Doom/Doom2

Lizardcommando said:

I thought the missing key error was for TNT's MAP31, not Plutonia's MAP31.

Do'h! I confused the two in all my comments.

If we're on the subject, doom3 didn't do much for me. it wasn't bad, but felt way behind the times. And to me DOOM is as much about slaughtering countless zombies as it is about creepiness. That was missing in doom3. I played through doom3 once and that was all I needed. an OK game but forgettable.

darkreaver said:

Doom 3 sucked major ass.

What I want is a game which focus not on story and mood and scary stuff or whatever, I want a game where the goal is "get to the exit, then onto the next level". NO fucking boring story or whatever. I know there is a story in Doom and Doom 2, but seriously, who cares? Make individual maps that kick ass, dont bother with contiouty (SP???)

+1

Though many RPG-snobs may find statements like that boorish and ignorant, it really is the better way to go. Despite what the arrogant "literary elite" are bound to say, games which focus on gameplay become more worthwhile and cerebral than those which are based around a cliche plot (i.e. Final Fantasy). Games should be games first and foremost. Playing Doom 3, I really just felt like I was walking through a horror movie. I don't think it was a bad game, but it did not have much charm or replay value. The movement was somewhat cumbersome and annoying, too.

Id have it in them to make a classic game again. It may not be groundbreaking, but it can be fast-paced, intense, and anarchic like the classic series while taking advantage of new technology to make the engine, gameplay opportunities, AI, and weapon characteristics much better. Actually, if they do it right, it could even be head and shoulders above the classic series. Only they could accomplish that. We'll just have to see.

Another observation after playing DOOM 3 and Ultimate DOOM back to back:

The original DOOM maps let you "figure out" where to go. The maps are generally large, filled with lots of neat areas to go to (at your own leisure), and filled with demons. This is much more realistic, since:

(1) if hell really wanted to invade, they'd do it with extreme force, not by hiding a few monsters in a closet.

(2) a real UAC base would probably be pretty big, have lots of different areas, and be open to exploration. DOOM 3 just pushed you forward.


Also, did I mention that secret areas and levels are freakin' cool?

DeumReaper said:

Regardless of how different Doom 4 could turn out to be, I consider Doom 64 to be the true "Doom 3" because of the balance between old and new, and it wasn't even made by id Software only!

It kept all of the classic weapons that handled the same way, most of the monsters from Doom II (and I emphasize the fact that their difficulty regarding weapon/health ratios was so similar to the originals), and ~30 levels with some secret ones; levels that followed a semi-linear progression with the three colored keys/skulls, including the remake of Dead Simple.
It also offered something beyond being just a megawad which was the laser weapon, final boss, darker sounds and music (IMO the greatest change D64 had), redesigned monsters/weapons, of course new levels with some colored lighting and moving effects, different textures and skys, etc.

Definitely the perfect balance keeping the Doom gameplay while adding new things and an entire level campaign.

Not to mention that D64's storyline is a direct continuation from Doom 2, in that you return to Mars to finish the job.

As much as I enjoyed Doom 3, I couldn't agree more. Only to be expected from the masterminds behind the excellent PSX Doom (had to slip that one in there ;) ).