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audiodef

Feedback needed on map

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I know this is very basic, but I can't see what's wrong. I'm sure a more experienced person could tell me why the door next to sector tag 16 doesn't open from the outside. There are four such doors and they all only work from the inside room (a quick look at the map in DB2 will show you where the other three doors are. The map is quite symmetrical). I'm guessing it has to do with the surrounding linedefs, but I simply don't know what the problem is. DB2 shows me no errors in this wad.

I'll also start asking for beta testers for this map while I'm at it. I don't map often, but I took it upon myself to pursue this as a hobby and I gave it quite a lot of attention. I want this to be an enjoyable map and I'll be taking feedback seriously. I've set the monsters up thus far only for the easy level, so in addition to the usual feedback, I'd like to know how I should ramp up the monsters for the mid and hard levels.

The map's on my server at: http://audiodef.com/doom/Cacopits.wad

It's map 21, DOOM2, jdoom.

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Using DB1 I went in on test map mode and the door at tag 16 opened for me from both sides. (I was using GZDoom.)

BTW, looks like an awesome map IMHO.

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audiodef said:

I'm guessing it has to do with the surrounding linedefs, but I simply don't know what the problem is.

Bingo.

It is because you have two linedef actions too close to each other. You have to use the passthrough flag on linedef 3598 (the WR one) in order for the DR one to work. Keep in mind the passthrough flag is for Boom compatible engines only.

You say your target is JDoom, and since I'm not sure how far it is along in its Boom support, you will probably have no choice but to move the lift away from the door in order for it to work. Moving it back 32 units should do the trick.

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Nuxius said:

Bingo.

It is because you have two linedef actions too close to each other. You have to use the passthrough flag on linedef 3598 (the WR one) in order for the DR one to work. Keep in mind the passthrough flag is for Boom compatible engines only.

To further clarify, Vanilla, Boom and others stop at the first linedef action it finds when you press Use. However at least ZDoom and derivatives don't do that, so that's why the doors worked for Herculine. Like Nuxius said, in Boom you need to use the "Passthrough"-flag so that the game doesn't stop at the first linedef action it finds.

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Thanks, guys. I'll move the lift away a little.

And thanks, Herculine, for the awesome compliment!

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Btw, is topic title changing acceptable? It seems more efficient than starting a new thread.

Thanks again for the tips on my lift problem. No, I'm not talking about ED. :-P

Now I'm having another problem. In a corner where I didn't place a caco, one is getting stuck in a wall, blocking a baron and former human in by the time I get to that particular sector. Looking at the map in DB1 or 2, it's the large open, outdoor area on the right where a baron is in front of a tall techno pillar (near the right-side stairs leading to this outdoor sector). You'll see there's no caco placed there, but somehow one wanders over and gets stuck in the right wall of the alley leading in to the techno pillar.

Any idea why this might be happening?

I've edited the map and added more monsters, and this has happened after adding more monsters for the mid and difficult levels. Play in UV. I think the caco stuck in wall problem happens in HMP, too. If you've downloaded it before, you need to download it again.

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Disclaimer: I am only offering advice. Feel free to heed or ignore it as you see fit. Don't think every little nitpick I make is a bug you have to fix.

Sector 455, the one secret, is a disconnected sector spread across what looks like two separate secret areas (behind linedefs 2413 and 2443) and eight monster alcoves nearby. You get credit for the secret by stepping into any one of these subsectors. I think the sector should be split up. Fixed already, apparently.

Sector 407 is a damage sector but going by others in the same area it looks like it shouldn't be.

Sector 523 is surrounded by monster-only teleporter linedefs which don't have tags. These should probably go, or a teleporter destination set up correctly, whichever was your original intention.

Too much symmetry is bad, because it means the player has to do the same thing twice (or more)

It's a shame the bars that protect the yellow key (sector 507) are so far away from the switch that lowers them (linedef 3674.) You have the situation where you find the bars and have no idea how to lower them, or you find the switch and have no idea what it did.

The map is quite cramped. Corridors and walkways are often 64 units wide. Staircases have low ceilings that you bump your head on when descending. It's hard to run around without constantly bumping into architecture. Plus there are so many doors which you're always having to stop to open. Doom is at heart a fast-moving game and it's better when the map allows the player the freedom to move quickly.

This crampedness is worst at the start where there are five pits that you can easily fall in and there's no way out. Few players appreciate inescapable death pits, especially when surrounded by awkwardly thin ledges.

Finally, your use of textures could be improved. Don't use LITE3 as a general wall texture, for instance.

--

Having pressed the post preview button, it seems while I was writing this post, you updated the wad. Therefore some or all of these comments may be out of date. During a brief test of the new version I did not observe a cacodemon getting stuck in the area you described, so I cannot comment on that issue.

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Thanks, RjY. I really appreciate your comments.

The yellow key barrier bars and the switch are intentionally far apart. I wanted to add a little confusion to the game. There is a story to the map (not too elaborate, though) and the switch and bars are something the demons did to keep the player away from the final teleporter exit.

The symmetry was intentional, but I will keep this advice in mind for other maps. I do kind of agree with you. For this map, though, the symmetry is part of the map story. So is the cramped quarters and inescapable pits. I'm actually not a fan of inescapable pits myself, so I definite don't plan to overuse them. Just something I wanted to try. Again, it has a story.

The lite texture was actually used either for door frames or computer tables. In the latter, as per the story, it's a new type of computer system on the base the map represents. Other than that, I know I've used textures in unconventional ways (door tracks for corners and ceilings for floors). I just went by "if it looks OK, use it".

I'm going to fix the rest of the things you mentioned. ;-)

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A recurring problem I see in this map is the cramped spaces. You're not allowing monsters (or the players) much freedom in their movement. Most monsters struggle to navigate in areas smaller than 80-96 units in width, and a bare minimum for small monsters should be 64. Larger enemies like demons or cacodemons should have more room. In the case with all monsters, because of how their bounding boxes work, moving diagonally or around jagged terrain requires even more space.

Some other situations where monsters might get stuck are where they are stepping down, or placed upon a sector thats too narrow to hold them properly. Although I didn't see this in your map, monsters should have ample room overhead when traveling up stairs and such.

There were also quite a few places where I got stuck. One was because a floor has raised after stepping off of it, trapping me, and another because I tried moving between a wall and one of those pesky tech columns, and got stuck for about 15 seconds before noclipping my way out. You might want to tone down your usage of those, especially in the outside area.

I noticed some broken sectors, but they didn't seem to present any visual glitches (although they might in OpenGL ports).

Other than that, the map is pretty decent for a first! I was compelled enough to play it all the way through.

RjY made some other excellent suggestions. You should follow his advice too.

Edit: seems we posted this at the same, so this might be a bit redundant. :)

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EarthQuake said:

A recurring problem I see in this map is the cramped spaces. You're not allowing monsters (or the players) much freedom in their movement. Most monsters struggle to navigate in areas smaller than 80-96 units in width, and a bare minimum for small monsters should be 64. Larger enemies like demons or cacodemons should have more room. In the case with all monsters, because of how their bounding boxes work, moving diagonally or around jagged terrain requires even more space.

Some other situations where monsters might get stuck are where they are stepping down, or placed upon a sector thats too narrow to hold them properly. Although I didn't see this in your map, monsters should have ample room overhead when traveling up stairs and such.


I'll try raising stair ceilings and doing what I can to make small sectors larger.

EarthQuake said:
There were also quite a few places where I got stuck. One was because a floor has raised after stepping off of it, trapping me, and another because I tried moving between a wall and one of those pesky tech columns, and got stuck for about 15 seconds before noclipping my way out. You might want to tone down your usage of those, especially in the outside area.


Where exactly did you get stuck? Let me know and I'll fix it. I'll also see about taking some of the techno pillars out. I put them in because I was designing the map around a story, but I don't want it to be to the point of interfering with game play.

EarthQuake said:
I noticed some broken sectors, but they didn't seem to present any visual glitches (although they might in OpenGL ports).


If different from what RjY mentioned, what sectors are these?

EarthQuake said:
Other than that, the map is pretty decent for a first! I was
compelled enough to play it all the way through.


Thanks! It's not my first, nor my second, but it is my second recently. Before that, the last I mapped was when DOOM was still new.

EarthQuake said:
RjY made some other excellent suggestions. You should follow his advice too.


Oh, I will.

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OK, uploaded another update. If anyone would be willing to download it and run through it, I'd appreciate it. I raised some stairwell ceilings and removed all the techno pillars in the outside yard.

I'm wondering how the ratio of monsters to health/ammo is. Is there too much ammo? I want enough to keep it challenging, not so much that the player can pick up health and ammo and get through it at 100% without working for it.

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I also found it a bit too cramped for my liking, but that's a personal preference and not really anything wrong with the map. I thought the computer map was given too early in the level, but perhaps not a bad thing since I really didn't need it; I played the entire level without ever looking at the automap and still found both secrets (though once I found one I instinctively went back to get the other). Health/ammo/monster ratio is good; I got nearly fubared a couple of times but always found a way to spring back. Overall it's a good map I enjoyed playing and it's worth all the work you've obviously put into it.

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Thanks! That's absolutely fabulous to hear. Since I need to get back to my regular Work (music awaits!) I'm going to upload my map to wherever maps get uploaded when they're done and just make any changes based on anything wrong that ever comes up.

Sorry about the cramped feel. That wasn't really intentional, but past a certain point, it didn't seem easy to fix without redoing the entire map, which I didn't want to do. Otherwise I'd be at this for a month! :-P

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Wow... now that's quality.

I only played till I died about three times, then noclipped to see what I was missing, and I really like this! The looks and textures all come together well, monsters are properly placed together, and to me, the small hallways provide cover and panic.

If I had to suggest anything, it be that inescapable pits are annoying, and try working in some Deaf monsters too maybe.

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*grins*

Thanks!

I'm not a fan of inescapable death pits myself. I hated them in Doom3. I may yet take them out or put switches in them. In fact, maybe I'll up the hurt level of the pits, make them deeper, and add switches. I thought I might be able to get away with this one "gotcha" to fit the story around the map.

I was going for a little bit of a Doom3 element. I dunno if it came through. I would have made the lighting overall a bit darker, but "too dark" is something I wanted to avoid.

I think deaf monsters might actually improve play a bit. Some of the computer rooms end up with no monsters because they've all heard the commotion and left the room.

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