Puzzle Solving

I was just playing through Icarus: Alien Vanguard for the first time in like 5 years. In MAP08, there's a situation in which the yellow key is on an invisible pedistool in the center of the room in a teasing location. The puzzle involved a lot of switch pressing that revealed teleporters that take you to different locations in the room depending on which angle you enter them in, which takes you to some more switches that lower lifts at other ends of the room that need to be teleported to in order to reach before they go back up. I had to use the automap a couple times to figure out what some switches were doing, but I felt pretty satisfied once I cracked it.

A lot of early 90's wads feature stuff like this that get players to think instead of just spewing flat-out run n gun gameplay.

I'm not talking about random poorly made confusing switch quests, or having to locate a switch that ss hidden in an obscure location. I'm thinking about placing the player in a scenario in the middle of a map in which the player would be able to see the situation at hand, but have to run through teleporters or activate switches in correct timing and sequence in order to reach a specified goal. Of course with additional monster closets, teleport ambushes and items to remind the player that he/she is progressing.

Do things like this interrupt the gameplay experience? Also, do you think skill levels have a part in this? Suppose I were to somehow cut out a difficult portion of the puzzle by making some teleport destinations only available on certain difficulties? How do you think puzzle solving plays a role in Cooperative? My best intention would be to make whatever the goal is that needs to be reached have some sort of secret shortcut that is activated once one player cracks the puzzle.

So what is doomworld's opinion on solving puzzles in Doom?

40oz said:

How do you think puzzle solving plays a role in Cooperative?

I recall Toke's coop wad having "puzzles" you couldn't solve alone (like gaps where you need human bridges, or switches that require multiple players to active them in time).

Anyway, I'd say puzzles depend on the map. Puzzles in a HR map are a no-go IMO, but in a slower map I can't see why you couldn't have a puzzle thrown in. Especially if it's part of a secret.

I love puzzles, they're the best! Especially the puzzle on TNT MAP30. YES!

Puzzles are good, but I guess it depends largely upon the type of puzzle and one's definition of exactly what a puzzle is. IMHO, wall-humping an entire map is not a puzzle. The best puzzles are for secrets, like for getting a powerup you can clearly see in an area that you need to find the secret way to get into. But as I said, things like this should have some sort of visual or audible clue, whether obvious or requiring some thought, just to avoid that monotonous full-map wall-humping. I think puzzles and secrets are important elements in a map that enrich the experience and, in the cases of those unsolved puzzles, elements that bring you back to play the map again.

I like them when I can solve them, I hate them when I can't :-P

That of Icarus MAP08 was very cool. I also have fond memories of Vrack3 blue key puzzle. Building "stairs" (raising pillars) via switches in Requiem MAP16 was another refreshing idea.

40oz said:

Do things like this interrupt the gameplay experience?

Certainly. Or at least, they interrupt the straight-action gameplay experience which is common in doom levels. However, I think they add to the fun factor if they are done well.

That said, I also get frustrated when I'm stumped by a puzzle. When you keep getting killed by a difficult horde or boss, it's different because you know why you got killed (namely you took too much damage). Whereas with puzzles you sometimes have no idea what you're supposed to be doing, and that annoys me. But it's still worth it to try to use puzzles, something I want to incorporate in my maps more, because they add mystery and exploration elements to an already sweet action game.

I haven't yet seen a hard puzzle that didn't revolve around trial and error (which is basically sheer brute force) rather than logic, making all the puzzles I've encountered very boring.

The best puzzles are in my opinion those that don't try so hard to be puzzles. Cyberdreams is a good one, but ultimately any good nonlinear level can be puzzle-like - finding out optimal routes and such.

Puzzles can serve as a sort of break from the aforementioned run and gun action, if only briefly. That way you can stave off exhaustion from long maps or big fights. As to what makes a puzzle interesting is hard to say. Personally I find trial and error to be frustrating.

They're good for a change of pace when done in moderation. Nothing overly hermetic (COUGH hexen2 COUGH) though, the player's skills should be tested on besting the monsters and traps instead.

If the wad is focused on puzzles instead, it's a whole nother story obviously.

Sure, a few puzzles are nice, in moderation. Icarus map08 was pretty notorious back when it was released, and is about the limit complexity-wise before it starts to break up the gameplay too much. At least you could just about deal with it by running around like a headless chicken until you eventually got the yellow key. And as some demos have shown, it doesn't take long at all once you know what you're doing.

STRAIN map23 had a puzzle that was in similar territory, and STRAIN map21 was almost all puzzles. It also offered a way to skip most of the map if you preferred.

It is also best if any puzzles have some logic to them (rather than random switch pressing), or some clues to point you in the right direction (such as Evilution's map30). The colour-coding idea from that was borrowed in Alien Vendetta map01, but just as a one-off clue, and I don't think that worked as well. If you don't make it fairly obvious to the player that he needs to solve a puzzle, then he may not know to look for clues at all.

A few maps have had a puzzle where you have various switches to raise or lower platforms so as to create a way across a gap. This can be quite nice as long as you can quickly see what effect your switch presses have.

Phml said:

The best puzzles are in my opinion those that don't try so hard to be puzzles. Cyberdreams is a good one, but ultimately any good nonlinear level can be puzzle-like - finding out optimal routes and such.

I think that's a very good point. Some of the most satisfying "puzzle solving" I've had in Doom is trying to find shortcut tricks in levels that weren't intended as puzzle levels at all (Icarus maps 22 and 28 spring to mind) - or in ambiguous cases where some shortcut tricks were deliberately allowed by the mapper (e.g. Kama Sutra), and the speedrunner's task was to piece them together in the best way.

40oz said:

Also, do you think skill levels have a part in this? Suppose I were to somehow cut out a difficult portion of the puzzle by making some teleport destinations only available on certain difficulties? How do you think puzzle solving plays a role in Cooperative? My best intention would be to make whatever the goal is that needs to be reached have some sort of secret shortcut that is activated once one player cracks the puzzle.

One way to make puzzles different using skill levels is by making the scenery objects different. Mappers tend not to use the feature too much, but scenery can be subject to skill settings. For an example, see Scythe map28, where the player must run further on skill 4 than on lower settings, because the shorter paths are blocked.

In my opinion, doom and puzzles don't mix. I want to blast demons, not figure out which order to hit switches.

Grazza said:
STRAIN map23

You mean that gazillion switches that raise platforms surrounding some goodies? I never solved that. If I remember, you could skip them and save your sanity, because another thing I remember is that it was my second favourite map, so it couldn't be something necessary to exit the level.

map21 was weird, but beautiful.

chopkinsca said:

In my opinion, doom and puzzles don't mix. I want to blast demons, not figure out which order to hit switches.

heh

Is there a way to run STRAIN with GZDoom? I couldn't even get it installed...

Concerning puzzles, I like the good ones. I really enjoyed the experience of Eternal Doom where you not only had to take down the enemy but also figure out how to move forward next. Although some puzzles certainly were totally devoid of any logic, it was still a challenge I wanted to overcome, and had a great feeling of accomplishment when I did.

Grazza said:

One way to make puzzles different using skill levels is by making the scenery objects different. Mappers tend not to use the feature too much, but scenery can be subject to skill settings. For an example, see Scythe map28, where the player must run further on skill 4 than on lower settings, because the shorter paths are blocked.

This method can be made more flexible by putting blocking scenery on a voodoo conveyor that then blocks the voodoo doll from passing special linedefs that can then make whatever changes you want to the map dependent on skill. I did this with a map to make some areas have back lighting in lower skills to make it easier to pick-out some imps in the darkness but then block this from happening on UV to make it a bit harder to fight them.

-travers

Rules shmules. Think for yourself.

I like puzzles. Off the top of my head, ppalace.wad map03 (I like map01 too) from '95.

Okay so what I've gathered is a lot of mixed views on puzzles. Some people like them and some people hate them.

I kinda figured the Icarus MAP08 to be the peak of puzzle difficulty that I could find enjoyable. My intention is to make my maps more memorable if they have some certain obstacles that will keep the players within the map a little longer. Fast-paced room-by-room demon blasting is fun but it's too easy to map for and can make the overall time spent playing the map ridiculously short. I wanna elongate the playtime of some of my maps and make them a little more memorable.

In any case, I'm not some kinda crazy puzzle making mastermind. I never once solved a rubik's cube, and I can't be arsed to beat anyone in a game of chess. My maps are usually pretty linear and straight-forward so it can be presumed that I would need to bust my ass to create the most intricate difficult puzzle you've ever encountered. I intend to keep them relatively easy.

I appreciate the input i've received through this thread very much.

From what I've gathered:

-Puzzles serve as a kind of relief from long and gruesome battles.
-They're usually best for secret areas and getting special items
-Only good in moderation
-Players should be able to immediately (or at least quickly) indicate what a switch does within a puzzle layout.
-Players need some kind of indication that whatever they are doing is establishing progress within the puzzle. (I'm intending to use teleport ambushes and monster closets to satisfy those who enjoy demon slaying)

40oz said:

Okay so what I've gathered is a lot of mixed views on puzzles. Some people like them and some people hate them.

This is the outcome of everything in Doomworld.

40oz said:

-Players need some kind of indication that whatever they are doing is establishing progress within the puzzle. (I'm intending to use teleport ambushes and monster closets to satisfy those who enjoy demon slaying)

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm in the middle of figuring out a timing-related puzzle where I need to do things in a specific order fast enough, the last thing I want is to be forced to start the sequence all over because there's suddenly enemies spawning in.

Maybe it would be ok in a puzzle that doesn't force you to start all over, but in ones where it does happen, throwing enemies at the player is a big no-no.

Well what I had in mind was a series of time based actions. Monsters wouldn't be attacking you out of nowhere as you do them, but instead after you complete them. (Assuming that if you complete one once you don't have to do it again)

I'm not really sure where I stand on puzzles, so I guess for me the most important thing is that they're not out of place. If a wad is full of high speed super action blam wow levels, throwing in a puzzle that changes the pacing like a smack to the face would be awful. If the wad generally went for a slower pace where most of the levels had some sort of puzzling element to them, even if most puzzles were trivial, then I can't see there being an issue. At worst, it means that I can ignore the wad entirely if I'm not in the mood for puzzle solving at the time.

Icarus08 is the bane of coop doom's existence