AV Map 28 soul sphere

Near the beginning of Alien Vendetta Map28 there is a secret area containing an Archvile and a switch that kills a bunch of nearby former humans. There is also a window looking outside.

A soul sphere is positioned right on the boundary between the windowsill sector and the (much lower) outside sector. In several Windows ports I've tried (zdoom, jdoom, even chocolate doom), the soul sphere is treated as being in the outside sector, where it is completely out of reach. Is this a mapping error, or was it once possible (on doom2.exe) to obtain the soul sphere?

There is no mapping error and AV was designed with doom2 "vanilla" compatibility in mind.

I tested this in Chocolate Doom and I can't agree with you, the soulsphere is perfectly reachable.
With PrBoom+ the parameter -complevel 2 does the trick. When using default complevel, it is out of reach indeed (and invisible from the room).

Please check this with Choco again and provide some screens or other proof if you really cannot pick up the soulsphere, as it seems strange for me.

For everyone interested, we're talking about sectors 324-330, thing number 516.

vdgg said:

Please check this with Choco again and provide some screens or other proof if you really cannot pick up the soulsphere, as it seems strange for me.

I'm not evouga, but still though:



And now I ask you to please do the same, as this is very weird.

What version of Chocolate Doom are you using? Which version of AV are you using, the original or the second release? I'm using the second release on idgames.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=11790

Doom Builder's 3D mode was the only thing I could find that would stick this soulsphere on the windowsill. Haven't looked at PrBoom+ comp 2 yet though.

Just tried in GlBoom+ and PrBoom+ 2.5.0.6, with -complevel 2, using AV second release ; soulsphere isn't reachable and can't be seen in GlBoom+. In PrBoom+, soulsphere can be seen clipping into the wall like in Nuxius' screenshot, but can't be reached either.

Edit : ah, ok, I get it. There's a much more complicated way that doesn't involve an AV jump to reach that secret, and that complicated way (linedef 771, then linedef 1392) is the intended behavior. Doing it that way, the soulsphere is available.

????????

Come on! What you say is unbelievable!




Choco 1.2.1, a run in -nomonsters. The AV version should not matter as this map remained unchanged if I remember well.

What is the size of your AV.wad, out of curiosity?

The one I am using (the one I just re-downloaded off of idgames) is 23,819,412 bytes.

Heh, unbelievable that people would believe that given appropriate height variation and a lone archvile, an AV jump would be the intended way to reach a secret as opposed to obscure switches hidden in places much further with absolutely no relation to the secret ?

As far as I'm concerned, this is a mapping error in the sense that the AV jump possibility should have been prevented or the soulsphere available regardless, and/or the switches have some kind of relation to the secret.

The same (I should have mentioned I use 2nd release), but as I said, it should not matter.

Edit: @Phml: LOL. Arch-vile jump? There's a UV Max demo by stx-Vile, you can watch it with -skipsec 670, I see no Av jump there. Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

I gotcha cheaters ! ;)

You were using -noclip mode! Run it as intended in -nomonsters

Cheating ?

Edit : scratch that.

Wow, a cool demo. I'll add this to "Bugs" in the Wiki when I find time. I'd be grateful if someone explained to me why the soulsphere is being raised, I don't get it (its initial state is down below).
If an arch-vile blasts you, you get -83% health, so a single soulsphere wouldn't be too rewarding.

Phml said:
Edit : ah, ok, I get it. There's a much more complicated way that doesn't involve an AV jump to reach that secret, and that complicated way (linedef 771, then linedef 1392) is the intended behavior. Doing it that way, the soulsphere is available.

Aha! Getting in that way does indeed make the sphere appear in Chocolate Doom.

Out of curiosity, what causes the soul sphere to rise? I could swear all sectors anywhere near it have tag 0...

When vanilla Doom places a map thing at the beginning of a new map it uses the floor/ceiling height of the thing at a single point on the map (treating the thing as having no radius). The soul sphere starts using the floor height of sector 330.

However, when sector floors/ceilings move Doom re-evaluates the z positions of any things in the blockmap blocks that are affected.
Even though the soulsphere is not interacting with the door (sector 323) directly the re-evaluation (which accounts for it's radius this time) causes the soulsphere to rest on the highest floor height from the sectors it is resting on. This is why it jumps up.

Whether this is what was intended by the author or just something that went unnoticed because it works is hard to say but it is an interesting idea.

Edit:
A similar thing happens on MAP10. From the start hit both switches left and right to raise the bridge. When you cross the bridge and open the door the stimpack on the left jumps up out of reach. After opening the door move back on to the bridge to see it.

vdgg said:

There is no mapping error and AV was designed with doom2 "vanilla" compatibility in mind.

Regardless of this setup working somehow in Doom2.exe, this is still a mapping error. It didn't work by design but just on happenstance. The way this room was built the flaw just wasn't noticable with the vanilla EXE but it's there. Considering that even rebuilding the nodes could make it completely inoperable, depending on which nodebuilder is used, I can't call this setup proper.

Putting an item directly on a line is bad already but then doing it a way that exploits bad engine design to hide the initial flaw is certainly a big WTF.

Hey dont u evah talk ahit on AV again dawg, amma kill u