Recording "competitively" (or not) et al. [split from Epic 2 thread]

Qaatar said:

Looks like Erwin Lin came out of retirement to record on...Map 21. I wish everyone would use DW to post demos, so I know not to bother with certain maps. Fucking hell...

Uh, what? The mere fact that someone has recorded a certain demo on a certain map doesn't prohibit you from doing the same - especially not when there's over a minute's worth of possible improvement. Honestly, I'd rather see ten incrementally-better demos on the same map than just as many lazy table-fillers. Anyways, nice run.

Starfire said:

I've been meaning to post a demo, and with the release of the great megawad, EPIC2, I found enough motivation to do this max run. It only works with zdoom 2.5.0 (Sorry if that's inconvenient).

Berserk punching in PrBoom+ isn't so bad once you get used to it :p

Creaphis said:

Uh, what? The mere fact that someone has recorded a certain demo on a certain map doesn't prohibit you from doing the same - especially not when there's over a minute's worth of possible improvement. Honestly, I'd rather see ten incrementally-better demos on the same map than just as many lazy table-fillers. Anyways, nice run.

Time might be faster, but route is essentially the same. Although I can't help myself sometimes, I usually strive to not beat other people's demos. I have no interest in recording competitively for reasons that we have already reiterated many times and inundated this board with, so it's just my personal stance on the matter.

Starfire said:

It only works with zdoom 2.5.0 (Sorry if that's inconvenient).

It is a bit inconvenient, as I hate zdoom, and I refuse to use any other source port after falling in love with pr+. Sorry. :)

I hope you can switch to vanilla/choco/pr+ in the future (preferably pr+, for the extended demo format).

Qaatar said:

I have no interest in recording competitively

Non-competitive reasons to record demos that "beat" other demos:

- Gain a better understanding of the problems the original runner faced when recording the demo
- Test and improve your own Dooming skills
- Experiment with the routes and methods that the original runner used (if this is "competitive," then so is recording a cover of another artist's song)
- Give fans of the map another interesting run to watch

Feel free to reiterate your reasons one more time (or simply link me to them). I love to argue :3

This is going to get off topic, so if you really want to discuss this, read this thread first (if you haven't already). And, we'll continue to discuss it over there. :)

Edit: this

Edit 2: Also, this

Qaatar said:

this this and this

I didn't find much of relevance in those threads aside from excessive self-deprecation and a paradoxical attitude that, in a forum that isn't at all serious about competition, takes not being competitive extremely seriously. Qaatar, you're a great runner. You recorded a max of map 21 that's vastly better than Erwin's, and people are glad you did. Deal with it.

Split off, so discuss to your hearts' content, competitively or otherwise. :)

Creaphis said:

I didn't find much of relevance in those threads aside from excessive self-deprecation and a paradoxical attitude that, in a forum that isn't at all serious about competition, takes not being competitive extremely seriously. Qaatar, you're a great runner. You recorded a max of map 21 that's vastly better than Erwin's, and people are glad you did. Deal with it.

I don't see how my overall skill level or lack thereof has anything to do with the topic at hand? I don't like to beat demos, because of port differences, settings differences within those ports, and a myriad of other things like tactical/strategic/route differences within demos that make them impossible to compare.

In a forum that isn't serious about competition? Tell that to some of the other recorders here. A few take demo recording VERY seriously. Many of the old timers don't even watch demos recorded with PrBoom+, or watch them with very wary/suspicious attitudes. This is probably justified, given that we've had a few cheating incidents (or person(s) wrongly suspected of cheating), but make no mistake, there are quite a few who are pretty damn serious about it.

The bottom line is this (and this has been reiterated so many times, I don't know why I'm even bothering to repeat it):

I don't like to beat demos because it means having to compare demos. Since I don't think that there is any valid way of demo comparison, I just won't bother with it.

I understand that you enjoying debating, but this is not something that is really up for debate in my opinion. I'm just another player, and we've had a rather large influx of great demo recorders these past few months. We're all here to enjoy the demos, and to most people, the player doesn't matter. Therefore, what I think and what my views are, shouldn't matter either.

I hold certain demos and players in very high regard, and would never, under any circumstances, beat their demos. This was a practice that was predominant during the days when C-N was active as well. This is why certain players today are held in high esteem, and others less so.

Edit: Don't mistake what I said above as anything more than just my personal opinion. I'm not fishing for compliments by being falsely modest (although I am a narcissistic asshole who enjoys watching his own demos), and I DO care that people enjoy my demos. I don't find this to be a paradoxical position at all.

I'm about as close to a demo perfectionist as you can get (Artem is closer), so naturally, I think it would invite some suspicions at some point. This is why I have chosen (at least recently) to perfect routes and demos that have not been recorded before. I don't like recording in TAS, since in my opinion it cheapens the end result, and I AM proud of my demos.

I can tell you upfront that my Doom skills decrease greatly when playing under ANY other source port (but especially vanilla due to the resolution), so no, I don't consider myself a great player. I'm a great player under optimal and modern conditions, but that to me isn't "great" at all.

Premise: Demos cannot be compared.

Conclusion: Demos cannot be "beaten," by newer demos with shorter times or otherwise.

I understand that you enjoying [sic] debating

Doomworld is such a rats' nest of compulsions and eccentricities that I can't help but poke and prod at a few of them. I don't mean to target you unfairly; I have contradictory notions of my own, I assure you.

Contradictory? Nah

Demos can be compared and beaten in the eyes of others. Remember, demos are for others to view as well. I might personally believe that demos cannot be compared, but certainly I don't know if the viewership feels the same way. Therefore, I just avoid it altogether.

Edit: I need to proofread more. :)

Qaatar said:

I'm about as close to a demo perfectionist as you can get (Artem is closer), so naturally, I think it would invite some suspicions at some point.

I wrote a post a few days ago asking for help with Doom Replay Editor. Just now, I posted a demo with a guideless glide. I'm not worried about being accused of cheating because what people think of me doesn't matter. "We're all here to enjoy the demos," after all.

Qaatar said:

This is why I have chosen (at least recently) to perfect routes and demos that have not been recorded before.

I mostly record table-fillers too because I find it more interesting to design a route from scratch and show something definitively new to demo watchers. We all have our own interests and preferences and you're certainly welcome to yours. The only thing that set me off was "Fucking hell..." - your extremely negative self-punishing response to the discovery that you accidentally recorded a demo that's faster than someone else's. This struck me as an extremely bizarre reaction which is why we're discussing it right now.

Of course I don't care about opinions over my skill level or personality, but I also don't want myself to be misrepresented either. No one likes being accused as a cheater (just ask Okuplok), no matter how detached he/she is to the community.

Edit: I use profanity a lot. "Fucking hell" might seem like a strong reaction, but to me at the time, it was just a mild annoyance.

in a forum that isn't at all serious about competition

I guess we're seeing a lot of different things when reading the same things.

Just the second topic Qaatar linked to is the perfect example of people being super serious about competition, to me.

I personally got some (admittedly fairly tame by DW standards, and admittedly I replied back just as harshly) tongue lashing from competitive runners when I dared to upload some very-less-than-optimal Hell Revealed demos. Message understood, I'm staying far, far away from C-N wads. ;)

There's cheating accusations thrown around based on no evidence, the latest of which drove a great player outside of the community (Okuplok).

Just a few days ago, SAV88 spoke of "destroying the previous record" for a demo. Seems pretty competitive (and not very nice) talk, if you ask me.

This forum feels so competitive to me that even if I had the skills to compete with the best, I don't think I would want to. Most people here are so far above the curve and start talking about great demos as trivial or even using derogatory adjectives.

I've been in real estate and trading, not claiming to be some super smart dude making $100.000 a year, we all know those old and tired Internet claims and truth is I was more of an average guy at what I did, my point being I think I know competitive when I see it, and I see the exact same things here as I used to see in those other activities.

Qaatar said:
I hold certain demos and players in very high regard, and would never, under any circumstances, beat their demos.

I think I finally discovered your "secret", this sentence sums up your mindset, I believe. A part of me thinks the similar way, but another part, on the contrary, finds it exciting that a player who stubbornly refuses to use the mouse and is improving extremely slowly (= me) can "compete" with the old great masters, maybe not at their peak, but always. And this fact does not diminish their achievements at all, from my perspective. Daniel Lindgren's demos I watched yesterday (that pl15 ones) were absolutely stunning for me. Aware when they were recorded I was so amazed I cannot find words for this feeling.

One more thing, but you may not be pleased to read about this one. Recording vr2-2205 was OK for me: I was no longer "the player that recorded the fastest demos for three Vracks", but as a consolation, I can always watch your demo, which I find absolutely brilliant, at least in the first half, knowing how energy consuming and treacherous this map is. Unfortunately, it was uncomfortable for me (putting it mildly) to read your self-deprecating comments about your own demo and your refusal to even put it in DSDA. Now I have no choice, I must wait for another record, or set it myself one day, which means my demo will be faster than yours on my 146th exit or something.

That statement, after reading it a few times, now sounds insanely arrogant to me. I don't mean to imply that I *can* beat the demos of my favorite players even if I wanted to. I certainly can't touch most of the C-N records, especially if I had to record in vanilla.

Edit: I seem to involve myself heavily in a lot of these threads concerning port differences...think I'll just shut up from now on. We're just beating a dead horse here, imo.

Everyone who records has their own goals and interests, but there are, I think, two fairly clear paths that players find most natural.

• One is to be primarily interested in finding new ideas, routes and tricks (including new approaches to battles), or achieving previously undone tasks.
  
• The other is to be concerned with improving the technique of running, finding ways to run existing routes faster, including tweaking the way particular battles are handled.

Most players are to some extent interested in both areas, but most display at least some bias towards one or the other.

I would say that both approaches are equally important and necessary for our field of endeavour to advance and remain fresh. A fantastic new route idea only leads to a truly fantastic demo when it has been polished and refined by a good runner. Ever higher standards of running show what can be accomplished and that people needn't be satisfied with 'lazy' demos. If there are no new ideas, then the tasks get reduced to a purely technical matter, with a few tics getting shaved off - you can see this with some of the shorter compet-n records, where the best route was worked out, and new runs dried up in the early 2000s, with a comment in a txt along the lines of "taking a second off this would just be a question of even better luck with infighting".

Sorry for rambling a bit. But my point is that a demo that adeptly implements an existing route or idea is of great value, and appreciated by the people who contributed route ideas, big or small. It's essentially a culmination of the efforts of everyone who has been involved in the process. I recall Radek (at the pub during the Prague LAN) saying something about this, and feeling that his effort was largely polishing the ideas of others. But even if that is largely true, then we have as a result so many fine works of art (by him and others that his demos have encouraged) that he can truly be regarded as a creator.

I'd disagree completely with the notion that the activity in this forum is overly competitive in any negative connotation of the word. If I thought so, I wouldn't want to be a moderator of the forum at all, in fact. To my mind, there would be a problem if there was a "pwning" attitude and crowing over beating the times of others. Or if people's primary motivation to record was simply to beat the times of others. But I don't detect that at all (other than some slightly rough-sounding comments that can, I feel, be put down to language issues and/or misunderstandings).

As for comparing demos - sure they can be compared when the same game physics apply and nothing has been used that gives the player vastly more info than another. But comparing players is another matter, and again I don't recall anyone seriously claiming that beating someone else's time proves that one player is somehow "better" than another. We respect other players for what they have created - for the pleasure it has given us, and how it has enriched our own playing and recording experience.

I agree with what you said, to a large extent. However, there are certainly times when the recorders who merely "polish" demos by a few seconds irritate the community at large. This happened a few times back when C-N was active (I recall and have heard about some choice words being said about certain players...I obviously won't name names).

I think there is also a large appreciation for gracious modesty in our community. Many demo recorders of the past will often include the demo that they beat in their own zip file (I know Stx-Vile did this on many occasions), and write very encouraging things in the text file. Unfortunately, I don't think that this is done often enough today. Making an effort to at least acknowledge the route used, if for nothing else than to be courteous and respectful, should be mandatory (imo...and I didn't think so in the past).

As for demo comparisons leading to player comparisons...I think that most viewers will logically make that connection. Even if no one explicitly states X player > Y player, it is often assumed to be the case. I want to avoid that as much as possible.

Qaatar said:

I agree with what you said, to a large extent. However, there are certainly times when the recorders who merely "polish" demos by a few seconds irritate the community at large.

Sure, I know what you're referring to. But that was more a case of personal animosity involving a few players, and the grievance wasn't so much polishing (i.e. taking a second or two off a time that is thought to be fairly close to optimal), but rather uploading demos that took a little time off records that were very far (i.e. minutes) from optimal, and the feeling was that this was just being done to collect compet-n points. But that's a long long time ago, and let's leave it in the past. I just wanted to clarify what is meant by polishing in this context. The kind of polishing Radek was talking about was, say, taking Doom2 map03 Max down from 1:20 to 1:19.

I agree completely about giving route credits in text-files, and said something along those lines in this thread:

A text-file enables the player to credit someone who previously recorded on the map or for any ideas that they used or improved upon. It is very sad when a demo with an inadequate text-file means that the chain of route credits that should accompany demo ideas is broken.

Let me just butt in and say the majority of my small collection of demos were recorded because the map in question didn't have any demos, but is great and really fun and replayable and deserves attention from other recorders.

In other words I want to troll inspire a more highly skilled player into thinking "I could do this faster" and recording a proper demo. ;-)

I'm only half-joking. It works occasionally, like recently when Phml did NewGothic movement 1 map15 in under a minute and a half (and he put my name in his text file, bless him)

i'd actually say a level of competition strengthens the community. if it is done gentlemanly, it brings you closer to your competitors and mutual respect is built.

just look at your little race with tatsurd on sod map19, that's a fantastic crowd pleaser and i doubt he stabs your voodoo doll at nights. :) i eagerly await tod's comeback on scythe map29, sav used such a strong word and presented a challenge. now if tod retakes the record it will surely be a hardworked top class demo, tell me you wouldn't like to see that.

a third example might be my recent abuse of certain vdgg's demos on an obscure wad (slugfest). he didn't see it coming and his maxes were the usual semi-casual runs you'd expect on a random overlooked wad from the past, so my times kinda crushed his, but it was no ill scheme from me. i just saw untapped timesaving possibilities and i liked the maps, plus i credited him left and right. the best part was seeing vdgg's next batch (for dusk.wad), he recorded those demos with much more effort and planning and they're a great show. i don't know how exactly he feels about me picking on his records on obscure wads he dug out of the archives, but seeing him step up his game to deny insolent interlopers is beneficial for anyone following his demos. :)

dew said:
vdgg's next batch (for dusk.wad), he recorded those demos with much more effort and planning

/goes checking demo statistics

/returns

OK, seems you're right. If I count number of exits * demo final time, I get a semi-reliable "effort indicator" for such easy maps. Looks like I put twice as much effort on given dusk map than on slugfests.

In my "nostalgia campaign" which I began in 1994 and I wish I will continue until about 2001 it's cool to see someone finds those obscure WADs as attractive as I do. I found even more amazing to see xepop's seven darken2 UV Speeds - I didn't pay him for recording these demos, just inspired him (unless I'm terribly mistaken and this was just a coincidence). So feel free to continue going after my demos. There's little chance I'll strike back, however (if I really wanted, dusk map04 doesn't look that impossible, but I prefer to move on) :)

I won't delve into subtleties of this philosophic theme, I'll just briefly state my personal position.

I agree with what dew said:

i'd actually say a level of competition strengthens the community. if it is done gentlemanly, it brings you closer to your competitors and mutual respect is built.

My personal dooming action is competitive in nature. I'm not that modest, and I have always been interested in competing with my most favorite players. For example, I'm proud that I could beat various UV Max/NM/NM100S records by stx-Vile, SC27-539 by TimeOfDeath, H230S112 by Okuplok and especially H214-103 by Kimo Xvirus. My natural potential isn't outstanding, but my ambitions push me to try accomplishing some serious challenges and continue progressing in my skills.

As for Scythe MAP29 -- I also would like to see a great new demo by ToD. My current result is faster than his previous record by 1:01, but still my demo has a number of sloppy scenes, as well as some room for strategy improvements.

And you Doomworld members are also welcome to beat my other records -- I really enjoy competing with you.

Qaatar said:
Contradictory? Nah

The thing is that you have an utterly competitive mode of operation in respect to playing and demos, yet, due to circumstances or whatever, restrict direct competitive interaction on your part. I mean, according to other posts you made, you play excluding the exploratory part of the game altogether and go directly to the time-based or optimized part of playing related to speed running categories and recording, which is competitive in nature, but you don't upload demos that compete with other demos.

An individual doing that does no harm, and it leaves you with more opportunities to record virgin routes in levels that haven't been explored, but if it were a general focus in the community, we wouldn't have seen many of the best demos recorded, as they were made by many people who tweaked routes and kept trying through the years, by competing against each other. In this sense, competition is also cooperation.

I usually recorded on maps where I could find substantial route improvements or to beat demos which I considered to be unrepresentative of the map's gameplay quality.

For example when I started recording I noticed there were quite a few demos done by Ryback in days long past on various difficult maps which seemed like records left standing only because noone else had the patience/willpower to take them on. That's why I did stuff like ow11.

Other such demos I've always thought about improving were his demonizd.wad runs. Probably won't happen now unless someone else has a go at them.

myk said:

The thing is that you have an utterly competitive mode of operation in respect to playing and demos, yet, due to circumstances or whatever, restrict direct competitive interaction on your part. I mean, according to other posts you made, you play excluding the exploratory part of the game altogether and go directly to the time-based or optimized part of playing related to speed running categories and recording, which is competitive in nature, but you don't upload demos that compete with other demos.

So apparently, perfecting routes and demos is directly correlated with competition against others? If I want to optimize my own demos and compete with myself, it does not mean that I want to compete with others. Like Grazza said, speedrunners all record demos for their own selfish reasons - mine are sense of accomplishment and the enjoyment gained from watching them later. How does that in any way conflict with my other position (not wanting to beat others)?

I have uploaded plenty of demos that have beaten others, but that doesn't mean that my original philosophical position on this is paradoxical or contradictory. I admit that I can't help myself, but I *strive* to not do it often. That's all there is to it...why beat this dead horse?

Edit: An individual doing that will indeed not harm the community, and I in no way was espousing my own perspective on this, or aggressively pushing my own agenda. Creaphis was the one who openly questioned my motives. Notice that all I did was edit my own post...didn't even figure that it would garner any extra views.

Note that your other aspect of the argument (if everyone does it) will only be true if it is even practically possible. It's not. It's like people reprimanding a couple for not having children, arguing that if everyone stopped having children, the human race will collapse. It's silly. 99.9% of demo recorders will NOT adopt my position, and I hope that they don't adopt my position. I love watching others beat others...just do not want to partake in the festivities myself. That's it. :)

Belial said:

I usually recorded on maps where I could find substantial route improvements or to beat demos which I considered to be unrepresentative of the map's gameplay quality.

For example when I started recording I noticed there were quite a few demos done by Ryback in days long past on various difficult maps which seemed like records left standing only because noone else had the patience/willpower to take them on. That's why I did stuff like ow11.

Other such demos I've always thought about improving were his demonizd.wad runs. Probably won't happen now unless someone else has a go at them.

...and that's why you're one of my favorite Doomers of all time. :)

I'd love to see you record on demonizd.wad. Yonatan's TAS demos do not use the most optimal routes imo...I think you can beat his times. :)

Edit: If this thread can somehow bring you back into demo recording, it would have done more good than all of these bullshit posts that I've made, added together.

Qaatar said:
So apparently, perfecting routes and demos is directly correlated with competition against others?

I think you say so yourself by admitting the importance of the competition that allows you to admire the resulting demos. Public competition is a way to interlace competitive efforts so they don't end in isolated individual initiatives. People learn from each other in the process, move each other to improve. Self-perfection is also an ingredient of competition, yet without the public interactive aspect it would fall flat at a much lower level. What has permitted all these great runners we admire is primarily open competition. It is both an "confrontational" incentive and a mode of promotion for the activity.

How does that in any way conflict with my other position (not wanting to beat others)?

People question that stance because they know it may make them miss some cool demos and efforts that would otherwise contribute with this general interactive communal speed running activity we practice. Above, vdgg spelled this out in a practical manner, and it clearly seems to be Creaphis' motivation in bringing this up.

Note that your other aspect of the argument (if everyone does it) will only be true if it is even practically possible. It's not.

We don't have to go to extremes. We can't think in terms of absolutes, but we can judge influences and principles. People can tend to discourage or diminish competitive play and that can affect the activity and the participation of players. While an idea posted publicly can be presented and held as a "personal opinion" it's still a stance before an activity that may or may not influence the community in a more general way, so it's game to be discussed and judged once it's stated. In fact, only after it was discussed did it become more clear you'll take your position more as a personal choice you wouldn't necessarily want replicated in others. People didn't necessarily know that beforehand.

By the way, there are also ways to be fresh and innovative while recording without feeling one is stealing demo credit or limelight by copying routes. Because of my tendency to like the process of playing more than the results, for example, when I try to compete with a demo I usually try to beat it without looking at the recording first, having only the time as a measure or aim.

myk said:

I think you say so yourself by admitting the importance of the competition that allows you to admire the resulting demos. Public competition is a way to interlace competitive efforts so they don't end in isolated individual initiatives. People learn from each other in the process, move each other to improve. Self-perfection is also an ingredient of competition, yet without the public interactive aspect it would fall flat at a much lower level. What has permitted all these great runners we admire is primarily open competition. It is both an "confrontational" incentive and a mode of promotion for the activity.

People question that stance because they know it may make them miss some cool demos and efforts that would otherwise contribute with this general interactive communal speed running activity we practice. Above, vdgg spelled this out in a practical manner, and it clearly seems to be Creaphis' motivation in bringing this up.

We don't have to go to extremes. We can't think in terms of absolutes, but we can judge influences and principles. People can tend to discourage or diminish competitive play and that can affect the activity and the participation of players. While an idea posted publicly can be presented and held as a "personal opinion" it's still a stance before an activity that may or may not influence the community in a more general way, so it's game to be discussed and judged once it's stated. In fact, only after it was discussed did it become more clear you'll take your position more as a personal choice you wouldn't necessarily want replicated in others. People didn't necessarily know that beforehand.

You are arguing against the theoretical aspects of my personal opinion as if they would have practical consequences in today's demo recording environment. Until we see evidence that they do (and you noted that I'm in no way encouraging such thought or behavior), I don't see how any of what you just wrote is applicable.

In other words, if Creaphis chose not to bring this up, no one would have given a shit. I don't promote my personal philosophy on this matter, other than a couple of negligible sentences here and there on these forums or text files that really just try to give some background into my modus operandi. Unless you think that my opinion on these matters would somehow affect the entire metagame of Doom demo recording? I don't see how anyone would change his/her mind based on how I perceive demo competition to be. I'm not an elder in this community, nor do I command very much respect and have a voice that can influence others. I openly welcome (as I did, for example, with Artem) to beat my demos.

I think I stated my position perfectly clear. Obviously, these are just some personal eccentricities of mine, and I don't think anyone can say that I'm somehow promoting an anti-competitive atmosphere. Phml feels more strongly about this issue than I do, yet I don't see him influencing anyone else on this matter. Do you? I follow demos uploaded to here and DSDA very closely, and I've not noticed any empirical evidence. How the fuck would I, *at best* an equally influential demo recorder, do more?

Since I started recording demos, we've had J4rio, Artem, Daiyu, and a few others who have started recording. None of them are influenced in any way by my opinions.

Of course, all of the above is now moot, since we just fucking started an entire thread and debate over this topic. If you honestly feel that my stance on this topic somehow promotes or even HINTS at an anti-competitive agenda, I won't mention anything related to this in my posts/texts ever again. And, neither should the rest of you.

Qaatar said:
You are arguing against the theoretical aspects of my personal opinion as if they would have practical consequences in today's demo recording environment. Until we see evidence that they do (and you noted that I'm in no way encouraging such thought or behavior), I don't see how any of what you just wrote is applicable.

So we should wait until ideas have a considerable effect before discussing them? What if it's too late by then and bad ideas become deeply rooted in the community?

In other words, if Creaphis chose not to bring this up, no one would have given a shit.

Sonofabitch, that Creaphis guy, always there to start trouble!

Unless you think that my opinion on these matters would somehow affect the entire metagame of Doom demo recording?

The community of DOOM demo regulars isn't that large. Even in large communities ideas can spread and have effects; more so in small ones. The effect of an idea is hard to measure but yes, we all contribute something here with our activities, stances and commentary. We are the community and make it work the way it does. Ideas also exceed us in many ways and we don't really "own" them any more than we own demo routes built among competing players.

If you honestly feel that my stance on this topic somehow promotes or even HINTS at an anti-competitive agenda, I won't mention anything related to this in my posts/texts ever again.

I think people promote themselves by merely breathing. We're all very biased and interested organisms. I find it very natural and fine and don't think there's a need to censure it. Occasionally arguments ensue but the more habituated and self-conscious people are about their motivated nature, the more smoothly they deal with it. They see it clearly in themselves so they are humane about it in others.

And, neither should the rest of you.

Hey there, don't try and exert some influence, remember you don't have any :p

myk said:

Sonofabitch, that Creaphis guy, always there to start trouble!

Hey there, don't try and exert some influence, remember you don't have any :p

:)

Since you seem to be willing to end this discussion on a good note, I'll just stop contributing to this thread. If others want to chime in, that's their prerogative, but I'm done. I've said what I wanted to say.

modus operandi

Well, I just want to say I just realised thanks to you that's what "MO" means in those american TV shows I've been watching recently. Something good came out of that thread! ;)