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mmnpsrsoskl

Doom 2 WAD Statistics

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I was wondering if there was a progam available that could show me the different textures/flats used in each level in the Doom/Doom 2 IWAD. I have seen someone post some stats and said they used such a program, just wanna know where I could download it...If someone could help that would be great.

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Manoth: Not sure how to do that in Wintex...

Fredrik: Told ya I had seen it somewhere...now how would you run the program at the bottom? Would you have to run it through a compiler or something?

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Yeah, you'd have to run it through a compiler. I don't know the technical stuff any further than that though :)

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To do it in WinTex, just open the WAD and click the levels icon to show only levels. Then click the sidedefs entry of a level and you'll get a list of the textures used in it.

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Originally posted by mmnpsrsoskl
I was wondering if there was a progam available that could show me the different textures/flats used in each level in the Doom/Doom 2 IWAD. I have seen someone post some stats and said they used such a program, just wanna know where I could download it...If someone could help that would be great.

Somebody asked for that about 6 months ago. It's pretty easy code, so I added it to DeePsea. Current version is 11.57 sbsoftware.com - the one posted here is dated and doesn't have this feature:

Here's how to do it:

1. Press F7 to get the Lump Dialog:

2. Select "PWAD Lump Name Fixing"

3. Enter the DOOM2.WAD (or any PWAD or IWAD) as the file name.

On the right top side of this new dialog there are 5 buttons giving you texture and flat reporting options. The one that shows the textures and flats for each level is "List Textures All Levels Separated".

Open External Viewer and you can print or save any of the reports.

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K thanks...sorry to say this but I don't use DeepSea...but I am downloading it now to try it out...damm man I didn't know DeepSea had so many features and stuff...

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Deepsea has all the features, but they aren't well organized within the program (UI, menus...). Just a bit of constructive thinking there.

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Originally posted by Fredrik
Deepsea has all the features, but they aren't well organized within the program (UI, menus...). Just a bit of constructive thinking there.

So where exactly should this go? No matter WHERE it goes, it will be buried somewhere. This tool is not exactly a high priority item, which is how I determine where it goes. Stuff that's frequently used is easily accessable in a click or 2.

It's organized by Dialogs and some menus. The F7 Dialog has ALL the lump tools - which is where this tool is. The F6 Dialog has ALL the Hexen type tools. The menus are typical drop-down and are both an extension of original DEU stuff and 2 new categories: Prefabs and UserTools.

The only other way to do it is to make menus which has to be subbed and that (IMO) is even MORE confusing. Nothing I hate more than having to go through layers of menus and submenus. If you notice DeePsea only has a few submenus:)

Besides that, you can click on the toolbar and pop it up OR you can make your own toolbar and place just about any command on there yourself. IOW, YOU can organize the toolbar to suit your style.

If a program has a lot of options, there's bound to be a learning curve. OTOH, if you actually have a COMPLETE idea of how it should be organized (not just one part), list it. Just a bit of constructive thinking here:)

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When I think of the ultimate user interface, I imagine a MDI edition of WinTex...

One of the biggest problems with Deepsea is handling multiple files. (Don't try to find some excuse for this, because it's true). Editing lots of entries in many WADs, moving entries between WADs, etc... it doesn't really work that good. It's way easier to open one window of WinTex for every WAD.

Here's a mock-up of an editor I did some time ago: http://www.doomworld.com/fredrik/images/doomdev-mdi.png

A MDI version of Deepsea where every WAD had its own base window (like shown in the pic above), and you were able to open multiple instances of the level editor, graphic editor, etc, would in my opinion be the ultimate solution.

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Originally posted by Fredrik
[B]When I think of the ultimate user interface, I imagine a MDI edition of WinTex...

You way oversimplified - I said ALL, and you come up with ONE. It would be a rare case to have multiple instances of the same tool open at the same time. Occasionally useful, but unlike a simple paint program, potentially much more complicated if you consider the multi-lump nature of PWADs - IOW what one instance modifies has to be reflected in all instances or else you get burnt toast:)

It's not realistic to focus on 1 thing. ANY program can be taken apart just by focusing on ONE thing and pretending that's the most important thing in the world and therefore it should be easier. IOW, there is no ultimate Interface. Something always has to give for some person:)

Btw, you CAN open up multiple instances of DeePsea. Try it. Last instance that exits sets the final value. Just don't try to save to the SAME file that's open. Unlike some programs, there are lockouts that prevent this.

The startup msg is just a safety warning. People have done strange things in the past:) MIDI has it's own set of problems. Focusing on just ONE thing in considering a design makes it look easy. There are many other things to consider. Not the least of which is how OFTEN something will be used.

DeePsea can move entries between PWADS at lightning speed compared to Wintex. The Import/Merge is geared directly for this task. No worries about lump names either, nor size. Open your target, select all the files (you can do them ALL at once) and blam you're done. Every tool is lightning fast for what it does - tool FOCUS. That by itself more than negates any jumping around to different tools - which is really no different than selecting a different menu command in Wintex. Is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? IOW, it's how you looks at the interface.

Some tools don't exist in Wintex. The reorganization tool (which does the reporting that started this thread), is geared towards cleaning up a PWAD. Fast, easy and safe. No equal in Wintex. Ditto for making instant textures out of BMPS and so forth. Do you realize the mess you'd get if you put those in menus? Or if you did a MIDI? You'd have to lockout multiple instances, just like PSP keeps only ONE instance of a image showing. The reason is the same one I'm trying to explain.

No DeePsea tool is hardcoded for entries, except for level control lumps and Texture control. That helped Wintex in the old days, but is really a stone in today's world. DeePsea dynamically figures out what lumps are what.

One of the first things one should do is TRY it. New things always appear different and there's a natural human reluctance to try something new. Some people think win95 is the best:)

Plus you are using an OLD version of DeePsea. 11.57 is quite different and 11.6 streamlines a few things even more with fewer prompts - especially for compiling. I am always concerned about people understanding what they are doing - so until I feel comfortable about user interaction, tend to safety prompt them:)

I personally think Wintex is non-intuitive (yes you learned it - not the same as intuitive)extremely awkward for merging (and doesn't work perfectly at all). It's not a good model to consider. That's IMO and potentially more relevant than your IMO, only because I've done the code:)

You complain about hidden commands. Considering that Wintex only does a FEW things, it's relatively clunky to do just those few things. If THAT was the only thing I worried about, it would be simpler just because all the other editing commands and concerns disappear:) Remember, you are also EDITING a level which the tools can modify.

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I'm just saying that WinTex with Deepsea's additional features included would be better than Deepsea in it's current form. I would find it better, at least.

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Well you are drifting away from giving details. You made a GENERALIZED statement and I asked for a GENERALIZED solution. As far as opinion - a dime a dozen. IMO Wintex is very confusing to a BEGINNER and hardly friendly. Learning is learning.

Let's stick to the ORIGINAL claims- you said:

1. "One of the biggest problems with Deepsea is handling multiple files"

OK - let's take that one for an example. Let's say you have 100 new BMPS and want to merge them in. Or you have 6 PWADs you want to merge. Or you have a mixture of BMPs, LMPS, PWADs, TXT and MP3's. Let's race and see which interface get's the job done first?:)

Or let's say you have 6 PWADS and want to preview them combined without merging them. Can you do that with Wintex?

2. "Deepsea has all the features, but they aren't well organized within the program"

HOW aren't they organized? I showed they were very much organized by grouped category. Then you push dee button and you get dee function. No - I didn't draw little arrows on the dialogs:)) Can't see the basic difference - that's what I meant by 1/2 full and 1/2 empty - maybe that's just an American expression and you don't understand what I mean?

The way to argue and convince me (anyone) is to STICK to your topic and give me VALID comparisons doing exactly the same thing using both pgms. You can't just take ONE instance and think that's the end of that. Consider the UNIVERSE of possibilities and also OTHER people and what they might want. For sure it's pretty much impossible to make everybody happy - so then I give choices and then people say there are so many choices it's confusing - you get the picture:)

Oh - how come nobody copies the Wintex interface?:)

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1. "One of the biggest problems with Deepsea is handling multiple files"

OK - let's take that one for an example. Let's say you have 100 new BMPS and want to merge them in. Or you have 6 PWADs you want to merge. Or you have a mixture of BMPs, LMPS, PWADs, TXT and MP3's. Let's race and see which interface get's the job done first? :)

What I mean is handling multiple WADs. Actually, the big problem in Deepsea IMO is when you edit a single entry and you have to save as a new file. You can overwrite the old file, but you don't know what's going into it and if any entries will disappear... it's just confusing.

Or let's say you have 6 PWADS and want to preview them combined without merging them. Can you do that with Wintex?

I've actually never during my 3 years of editing had to do this.

2. "Deepsea has all the features, but they aren't well organized within the program"

HOW aren't they organized? I showed they were very much organized by grouped category. Then you push dee button and you get dee function. No - I didn't draw little arrows on the dialogs:)) Can't see the basic difference - that's what I meant by 1/2 full and 1/2 empty - maybe that's just an American expression and you don't understand what I mean?

What I mean is that there's no INTUITIVE relation between the files you have open and the function dee. I don't find the WAD handling/editing menus with their big buttons very useful - it'd be a LOT more convenient if the widgets could be reached directly from a normal menu at the top of the window. I know that there are very many menus already, but some of these aren't even necessary.

Oh - how come nobody copies the Wintex interface? :)

Then what is XWE?

Oh, and you keep arguing that you find your feature X much better than you'd find my feature X, but it doesn't really matter to me what you find useful if I don't (and I'm the customer who's supposed to pay for the program... :P )

I'm just saying that if I had WinTex but with limits removed and DeepSea's extra tools included, it would be pretty much the ultimate editor.

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Before you read the rest, heres' the short answer: READ the help for each tool. Then USE the tools to familiarize yourself with them and THEN criticize. It's not productive to critique when you haven't done the above. To be truly constructive, please don't generalize. Be specific and always list the EXACT function.

You can overwrite the old file, but you don't know what's going into it and if any entries will disappear... it's just confusing.

I have NO clue what you are talking about.

READ the help. How about giving me the -specific- command. Almost<g> always there's a reason why things are done a certain way. To most people it's clear that if you EXPORT an entry that means if you choose the same filename it will OVERWRITE that file. Same as any other program.

There are a few tools that MERGE data with an existing PWAD that don't implicity say "merge" (like the Merge TOOL). These are the graphics creation tools, which of course have to merge data with an existing PWAD or else you have to merge them yourself. Weren't you the one that was complaining about having to merge all the time? Umm, yes it was. So now you complain - that is funny Fredrik.

In fact, DeePsea is the only one that uniquely merges with existing PWAD files for some tools. Sounds like a new feature needs some use to see how simple it is.

No entries ever "disappear". Just a question of more experience.

I've actually never during my 3 years of editing had to do this.

I do that fairly often. Here's a typical use. You load a level PWAD and you load a RESOURCE PWAD. Now you can see the new textures etc just as the designer intended. Sometimes I load a whole bunch of new resources just to see how they blend. I've been doing this since DOOM came out - but that's neither here nor there. Some of my best suggestions have come from total newbies.

What I mean is that there's no INTUITIVE relation between the files you have open and the function dee

Like I said, can't make everyone happy. Not all people think the same way. But I'm curious:

Explain exactly how if you click "DEE Sprite Edit" button that it's not INTUITIVE and OBVIOUS that you are editing SPRITES for god's sake. Exactly the SAME thing goes for ALL the other buttons. And strikingly, that's EXACTLY the same thing you do with Wintex (fill in the blank).

I don't find the WAD handling/editing menus with their big buttons very useful - it'd be a LOT more convenient if the widgets could be reached directly from a normal menu at the top of the window.

They CAN. You CAN. As I already explained - make your OWN Tool bars. You are just not familiar with what can be done. MORE menus? Do you realize how many things there would be? God, I can hear the bitching already.

I know that there are very many menus already, but some of these aren't even necessary.

Mmm, which ones? Be specific. I got rid of some F7 ones - they were carry overs to point people to the new dialogs (used to be direct as a bunch were, but there were getting to be too many of them<g>).

Then what is XWE?

I think not. That is NOT the Wintex interface. Couldn't be more different - trust me. Somebody is rolling over right now:) I do like some features of that though, others not.

It's a personal difference, nothing else. I like to focus on a "job to be done" and not have to hunt for "where" it is. So that's why I like dee Buttons that group class functions together, plus it lets me explain a bit on the dialog.

Oh, and you keep arguing that you find your feature X much better than you'd find my feature X, but it doesn't really matter to me what you find useful if I don't (and I'm the customer who's supposed to pay for the program... :P )

Nice try, but no cigar. All suggestions have to make SENSE and have to give specific examples and has to fit OTHER users. AND last but not least, the user has to USE and KNOW all the options. Read the help and really get experience using the tools.

Fredrik, it's the same as when you told me to take the first 256 colors of a 16 million color image to make into a palette. I asked "WHY, how does that make sense?". You never ever give reasons back explaining, but drift on to something else. I do things when people carefully think things through AND actually use features enough to realize the flexibility and what they do:)

Remember what I said earlier - every pgm needs to be LEARNED. You are stuck on Wintex. Fine. Everybody is DIFFERENT and I can't make everyone happy. Some insist on DEU/DETH/ZETH. Same reason:) If you don't try and read the help, then it's never a constructive discussion.

I very much change things when a person has exhausted ALL the tools available and explains what he wants to do. Newbies are really cool, since they take a direct approach and are NOT hindered by something else they learned. Quite interesting actually.

PS: Isn't speed in getting a job done one of the most important things to consider - not if it's a button or a menu:)

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