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Frankdude

I have converted to steam

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What are you talking about, really? Internet availability in the western world is near 80-90% in most places. The fact is, people that cannot afford or acquire an internet connection because of whatever their social, geographical or financial situation may be, probably aren't the people that would be bitching about not being able to have a DRM free physical copy of fucking call of duty.

Just to clarify, I live over in the Sidney, Michigan (full of Amish, Horses, and Buggies) where the Series of Tubes simply doesn't bother to reach. If I wanted to get an internet connection at my house, the cheapest available option is $55 per month. To get COD, you pay $60 once.

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Quast said:

Yes, I realize that this is an incredible hurdle to leap over, having to connect to the internet...once.

And then keep using the same computer until the end of times if Steam ever goes bankrupt, because otherwise you will lose all your games as you'd have to reinstall them from backups only to have the Steam client fail to connect to dead servers.

And as I pointed out, it will sometimes refuse to work offline anyway for unknown reasons, despite having been connected before.

phi108 said:

And coming back to a game disc bought 20 years ago, the user would have to hope Steam is still running and supporting that game, or that there is a no-Steam patch for download somewhere.

Googling for no-Steam cracks drowns you under hilarious results of the "connect to this secret Steam server that is somehow in Hong Kong with your username and password" variety. ;)

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Maes said:

If it wasn't that sometimes you still see boxed versions being sold as much as or lower than online distribution, so online distribution does not even have the advantage of inherently,singnificantly and CONSISTENTLY lower prices.

Wat. I can usually get a game on Steam for half of it's retail price.

Maes said:

It's precisely that 10-20% you're leaving out that comes biting you in the ass.

phi108 said:

It's more than that, it's connecting to the internet and then being forced to download a >500 MB update before being able to launch a game and set "never update". That can be an issue for the 10-20% or for people with inadequate internet speed.


So if a company doesn't pander to 100% of its potential users, it's a total failure? Trying to play video games in the modern age without Broadband is like trying to play video games in the 90s when your only gaming system is a Mac. I can't really feel sorry for someone that is attempting to do something without the proper hardware, and someone in such a situation should probably find a new hobby. There's more to life than video gaming.

Wagi said:

Just to clarify, I live over in the Sidney, Michigan (full of Amish, Horses, and Buggies) where the Series of Tubes simply doesn't bother to reach. If I wanted to get an internet connection at my house, the cheapest available option is $55 per month. To get COD, you pay $60 once.

That's not a bad price these days. I was living in the middle of a city and had to pay $60 a month because Comcast had a monopoly in the area and that was their cheapest package.

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Keyword here being "usually". There have been a few games that have been sold online for the same price as retail, or even for a higher price especially when retail stores organize promotional operations while online distributors don't.

It's more the exception than the norm, but it has happened.

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phi108 said:

It's more than that, it's connecting to the internet and then being forced to download a >500 MB update before being able to launch a game and set "never update". That can be an issue for the 10-20% or for people with inadequate internet speed.

And coming back to a game disc bought 20 years ago, the user would have to hope Steam is still running and supporting that game, or that there is a no-Steam patch for download somewhere.


A 500 MB patch is not very common on Steam, unless it is a TF2 patch that adds new maps. Why are you worried about people who have lousy internet connections? Steam is clearly not designed for them. If you can run it properly, you should just enjoy it instead of worrying about other people or the future.

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Frankdude said:

I have converted to steam

Wow! Sounds scary. At what temperature did you vaporize? Do you have a special input device to post with, or do you dictate to someone? I've managed to maintain solid form for a good 21 years, myself, and hope to continue to do so in the future.

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esselfortium said:

Wow! Sounds scary. At what temperature did you vaporize? Do you have a special input device to post with, or do you dictate to someone? I've managed to maintain solid form for a good 21 years, myself, and hope to continue to do so in the future.


http://you-win-the-internet.com/?n=esselfortium

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Wagi said:

Just to clarify, I live over in the Sidney, Michigan (full of Amish, Horses, and Buggies) where the Series of Tubes simply doesn't bother to reach. If I wanted to get an internet connection at my house, the cheapest available option is $55 per month. To get COD, you pay $60 once.

OK, pointless non-sequitur comparing the price of a game to the cost of one month of internet, but w/e.

That's a fairly typical price for internet access afaik anyway. I live in the ass-end of nowhere myself and I pay $70 a month for a cable tv + 8mb line combo deal.

Gez said:

And then keep using the same computer until the end of times if Steam ever goes bankrupt, because otherwise you will lose all your games as you'd have to reinstall them from backups only to have the Steam client fail to connect to dead servers.

Alright, look. If you are that interested in playing cod 100 years from now you can either maintain a legacy box expressly for that purpose like some people do today for older programs...or you can cry in your milk.

Jesus even today there are older NON STEAM programs that fail to work properly or even fail to work at all with modern hardware and OS's. Backwards compatability for future systems is not guaranteed. So even if steam wasn't around in any way, shape or form, all these cool games you want to play 50,000 years from now are eventually going to break.

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Haha, well done Essel. I can't believe no one spotted that earlier.

Of course, if he went straight from a solid state to a gaseous one, that means he sublimed. If he then came here to post about it, would that be going from the sublime to the ridiculous?

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I use Steam when I have to, and I still strongly dislike it. It still sometimes takes seconds or even minutes to start. It still sometimes won't let me play my singleplayer games until I've downloaded the newest patch. It still sometimes bugs completely and forces me to move my steam games folder, uninstall, reinstall.

Fanboys can shake their fists and yell "it's not a big deal" all they want, it's still a bigger deal than having a game installed normally, working as I want and when I want without trouble or delay.

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Quast said:

Jesus even today there are older NON STEAM programs that fail to work properly or even fail to work at all with modern hardware and OS's. Backwards compatability for future systems is not guaranteed. So even if steam wasn't around in any way, shape or form, all these cool games you want to play 50,000 years from now are eventually going to break.

They don't work because the platforms have changed, and that is way different from the planned obsolescence, "fuck you, you can't install it anymore because we said so" bullshit that modern games have.

The former can be fixed with emulation, virtualization, or putting together an "old box". The latter is impossible to do anything about unless you're a very talented reverse engineer, and even then it probably qualifies as a DMCA violation which could buy your ass a pounding in the slammer every day for 10 years.

So yeah, I wouldn't be comparing the two at all.

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esselfortium said:

Wow! Sounds scary. At what temperature did you vaporize? Do you have a special input device to post with, or do you dictate to someone? I've managed to maintain solid form for a good 21 years, myself, and hope to continue to do so in the future.

Haha!

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When these ugly triplets rear their heads, any sort of rational argumentation is just wasted time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer's_remorse
Post-purchase rationalization
Cognitive dissonance

Since nobody is just gonna admit "Well suck my knob and call me Charlie, I've been duped with the rest of the sheeple!".

fun fact: bbcode breaks urls with apostrophes in them

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esselfortium said:

Wow! Sounds scary. At what temperature did you vaporize? Do you have a special input device to post with, or do you dictate to someone? I've managed to maintain solid form for a good 21 years, myself, and hope to continue to do so in the future.


I had a solid form. In fact I post through technokenesis and I myself farted once and only once when I was 30 I have been all gas since then.

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Quasar said:

They don't work because the platforms have changed, and that is way different from the planned obsolescence, "fuck you, you can't install it anymore because we said so" bullshit that modern games have.


Some modern games have draconian DRM schemes, but a lot of them do not. A few games with bad DRM do not represent all games released.

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Frankdude said:

I had a solid form. In fact I post through technokenesis and I myself farted once and only once when I was 30 I have been all gas since then.


Liquid form master race here. Suck my pseudopod.

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Maes said:

When these ugly triplets rear their heads, any sort of rational argumentation is just wasted time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer's_remorse
Post-purchase rationalization
Cognitive dissonance

That's because you can use these arguments against anybody who buys a product and likes it, accusing people of these things will get you nowhere. What? You bought food and it made you less hungry when you ate it? Did it really? Are you sure you're not just trying to rationalize your bad purchase?

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I myself can perfectly accept the fact that tons of people are happy with Steam, and with Kindles, and iPads, and PS3s, etc., because they obviously are. It's just that I also notice these people are oblivious to the consequences, both to themselves and society at large, by allowing the tech industry to continue on its march toward total control of the end user.

The consumerist theory of "every man for himself" doesn't encourage consideration of long-term or non-personal consequences. Example: "Why don't those hackers just go use something else? This is for people who want a phone."

Then later on when this particular person cannot use his device any longer because support is discontinued, or finds that "iStuff Inc." has been sharing his reading list with the FBI, or finds his media files deleted because of a copyright claim by "WeOwnYou Content Holders, LLC", he has no recourse other than to bend over and take it.

So you can either wake up now and say enough is enough, as I have done personally, or you can continue to allow more and more exceptions to personal liberty until there's nothing left to protect.

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God damnit. Steam should be a banned topic on these forums. The arguments just start getting retarded less than 50 posts in.

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Danarchy said:

God damnit. Steam should be a banned topic on these forums. The arguments just start getting retarded less than 50 posts in.

Indeed, for example calling those of a different opinion "retarded" rather than offering a meaningful response, or simply considering - or ignoring - what was said and moving on.

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DeathevokatioN said:

Quick question, if I purchase DooM collectors edition with steam... would I be able to play it offline?


Yes, with that, you can move around Iwads and run the included Dosbox as you wish, I think. The problem coming soon outside of Valve's games is Steamworks, something third party developers can implement into their games for extended Steam integration. It's apparently being used with Duke Nukem Forever.

Quasar said:

Then later on when this particular person cannot use his device any longer because support is discontinued, or finds that "iStuff Inc." has been sharing his reading list with the FBI, or finds his media files deleted because of a copyright claim by "WeOwnYou Content Holders, LLC", he has no recourse other than to bend over and take it.


That is an interesting point, going deeper than I have thought about it. I have always been annoyed with the claims that people should just "not use it" if they don't like it, because then they don't get the chance to combat an unappetizing future of "services" that used to be simpler and easier "products".

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DeathevokatioN said:

Quick question, if I purchase DooM collectors edition with steam... would I be able to play it offline?

Games that were developed before Steam came into the picture are safe, because they're not going to shoehorn Steamworks in old code. Doubly so for DOS games, since they just lump them with DOSBox and they have plenty of reasons not to want to try mixing free software like DOSBox with Steamworks... And triply so for games with alternate exes available (e.g., source ports but also any game where you can get the retail box exe from a patch or a demo version) where you can just point a different exe to the data.

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Wagi said:

That's because you can use these arguments against anybody who buys a product and likes it, accusing people of these things will get you nowhere.


Not quite the same thing. If someone just says "I bought an iPhone and like it" that's fine with me, it's an accomplished fact. However, that DOESN'T stop me from saying my opinion on iPhones.

And if, after I say that I wouldn't buy one because [insert obvious reasons here] someone tells me "go back into your hole, you anti-consommerist pinko!" by attacking me rather than my arguments, then that's clearly a one-sided defensive reaction. If someone was truly so secure about his purchase and believed that there was not even a grain of truth in my arguments, he would simply ignore me without ad hominems. Amirite?

If I say e.g. that I don't like the fact that the iPod's battery is not replaceable, that's a rational argument, since there's no way you could prove that "having less for more is better". Someone replying that "he had no problem with his one" or that "he can get it replaced with 30 bucks" or even that "he doesn't care" or that "nobody has this problem but you", is not countering my argument, which is rock-solid, but grasping at straws. An inherent disadvantage will always remain an inherent disadvantage. As the saying goes "Better is Good's worst enemys", and there just is a lot of "Better" around.

Also, check out how the OP opened the thread: "Any Steam haters that have converted here?" therefore creating the false dichotomy between total converts and total haters. You either love Steam completely (or Apple...or Jesus Christ....or the Republican Party...) or you're a total hater, with nothing in the middle, no "skepticism", no "rationalism", no "self determination", no "reservations", no "doubts", these all count as "hating". That's a first-class defensive, polarizing mechanism, erected before any real debating could even start.

To come back to your food example, I would not criticize anyone for buying his favourite food. HOWEVER, if I told him "I wouldn't buy your favourite food because I believe it's too overpriced" while ending it at that, and he labelled me as a hater, then that would be post-purchase rationalization for me, plain and square, and typically I would cease any further discussion with that person.

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Danarchy didn't say:
God damnit. Steam should be a banned topic on these forums. The arguments just start getting retarded less than 10 posts in.


FTFY

Quasar said:

Indeed, for example calling those of a different opinion "retarded" rather than offering a meaningful response, or simply considering - or ignoring - what was said and moving on.


Also this.

Also also, Maes' posts make my day. :D

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Danarchy said:

So if a company doesn't pander to 100% of its potential users, it's a total failure? Trying to play video games in the modern age without Broadband is like trying to play video games in the 90s when your only gaming system is a Mac. I can't really feel sorry for someone that is attempting to do something without the proper hardware, and someone in such a situation should probably find a new hobby. There's more to life than video gaming.


The last stat I read (granted this was about three years ago, and in that time I've been to prison twice and haven't really bothered with keeping up to date with anything tech related in my time free, but I do know this stat has improved some) was that of everyone in America who had internet 52% were using dial up or similar. So as of a few years ago shit like Steam would be a pain in the ass for half the net users in the US. What Valve knows is that if you want it bad enough, you'll jump thtough the hoops. And if not, well, there's enough people who do have fast internet or are willing to jump through the hoops.

Me, I spent 13 hours on a dial up connection just to play Half Life 2. Was it worth it? Only kind of.

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Quasar said:

Indeed, for example calling those of a different opinion "retarded" rather than offering a meaningful response, or simply considering - or ignoring - what was said and moving on.

It is if your opinion has no basis in reality.

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Danarchy said:

It is if your opinion has no basis in reality.

So it is not in fact the case that certain consumer rights that are usually involved in a purchase - the so-called rights of first sale, for example - are not given up when using Steam to purchase most (but not all) products that are offered through that service?

Because you see, I'm not personally comfortable with giving up any of those rights, however trivial they may seem to some people. For example the ability to make a backup copy which, if needed, will install later. "Steam IS the backup" doesn't cut it for me. I mean a physical copy I can hold in my hand, on a CD, DVD, or flash drive. To me that's the bare minimum. Since that seems so "unreasonable" by measure of the modern game industry, I have largely chosen to abandon it. All the games I play these days were made before all this nonsense started.

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So much hatred all over a thread reversal. I once said steam was spyware and I still dont trust it. But it is the way of the times and you can turn steam off which you should do if your going to torrent, porn, etc. I think this thread is tearing the regulars apart. In my honest opinion we had are hatred its over. Mod lock this thread.

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Frankdude said:

So much hatred all over a thread reversal. I once said steam was spyware and I still dont trust it. But it is the way of the times and you can turn steam off which you should do if your going to torrent, porn, etc. I think this thread is tearing the regulars apart. In my honest opinion we had are hatred its over. Mod lock this thread.


Hi there, welcome to Doomworld!

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