Was Doom 2: Hell on Earth just an expansion pack?

The sheer amount of new content was enough to consider it a commercial sequel. Not an expansion pack.

I think that arsenal swap should be done immediately.

Enjay said:

Indeed, it has always confused me why the big 4000 hit point, rocket spewing cyberdemon was the boss of the middle episode and the relatively weak 3000 hitpoint chaingunning spider was the "big boss" at the end.

Maybe ID thought a rapid fire shotgun more deadly than a rocket launcher.

To the original question; let's not forget that, at least in the U.S, that when Doom2 was released, that Doom1 wasn't availible in shops.

Expansions packs = require the original game (that's why in ye olden days they also called them "data disks", "extra levels" etc.). A good Doom II-era example of this: Syndicate's "American Revolt" data disk.

Original game + expansions packs combos = INCLUDE the original game AND the expansion as a pure add-on (a perfect Doom-II era example: Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark portal combo pack).

Doom II falls in neither of these two categories.

I don't consider Doom 2 an expansion. Okay, the levels are almost indisputably uglier in most places.

Tthe additional enemies, sector actions, and even the Super Shotgun have done enough in the way of mapping options for the community that I think Doom 2 is more than an expansion. I see it in some ways as bringing about the second "generation" of gameplay in the series, along with Plutonia (Evilution plays more like Doom 1). The open-ended, more vertical "slaughterfest" approach that many modders began to adapt definitely was complemented by the more kinetic enemies added in Doom 2.

Considering most developers don't even MAKE expansions anymore and are more content to make you shell out $5.00 for functionless new character decorations, Doom 2 is practically an entirely new game in hindsight.

I don't know, do you think people were more critical of it in the 90s or now? That's what I'd like to know. Remember that this was when most user made levels were an abomination to play through and I'm sure Doom fans would've gladly bought any release by id.

Maes said:

Original game + expansions packs combos = INCLUDE the original game AND the expansion as a pure add-on (a perfect Doom-II era example: Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness & Beyond the Dark portal combo pack).

Perchance does anybody remember how Hexen's Deathkings expansion was loaded into the game? I'm assuming it was a PWAD. If so that would technically be the only true "expansion" for the original Doom games if one disregards shovelware releases.

Well, I think there was/is also a patcher on id Software's FTP that let owners of the original registered Doom upgrade their copy to include Episode 4. I guess you could technically consider that release an expansion as well because it wouldn't include the Doom IWAD as the retail discs did.

Hmm,

Happens on another location(Earth) A few New monsters. New textures skins for environments. Improved multi-player.

In a short answer. No, Doom2 is not an expansion pack. It's a real sequel.

Why are we still talking about this?

Its a full blown sequil that stands alone and is independent.

Doom 2 plays from one start to one end, with changing the atmosphere, if you are still alive you'll keep all your weapons you got before.

Doom plays from 3 starts to 3 ends, with each one starts from different atmospheres with starting from scratch. And you can start from a different part of story.

If an expansion pack was released then it would have the same selection for Doom with different levels and different story (and adding monsters and weapons).

HOWEVER, you could consider Ultimate Doom as an expansion pack to Doom: at a certain point id simply released a patch that upgraded older versions of Doom to v1.9 and, as a courtesy, added the extra episode as a bonus. Hey presto, your Doom has been officially expanded.

It fulfills all definitions of an expansion like requiring the original game, adding relatively little new content, not removing any of the old material (maybe updated levels, but not deleted) and reusing what you already have. OK, so even THAT was released in standalone form (primarily) but later on it was turned into an expansion. Quite unusual, if you think about it :-p

Something similar did not occur between Doom 1 and Doom 2 or between Doom 2 and Final Doom, which would be even closer technically.

Ultimate Doom was confirmed as an Expansion pack by id as I believe. The patch shows that.

Torr Samaho said:

spidey should have been something like the demolisher from realm667, that one has two chainguns, one bfg and much more health.

Agreed. As soon as I first saw the demolisher I thought it was far more of a fitting end game boss than the Spider Mastermind. It still has that "big brain mastermind" thing going for it but it is armed to the teeth and very tough.

OK, perhaps it could have its HPs dropped a little and perhaps E3M8 would need a little bit of reworking to make the challenge appropriate for the untrained 1993 audience but the demolisher would definitely feel much more like an endgame boss and a fitting increase in challenge for the least level, having already met the Cyberdemon on E2M8.

Maes said:

HOWEVER, you could consider Ultimate Doom as an expansion pack to Doom: at a certain point id simply released a patch that upgraded older versions of Doom to v1.9 and, as a courtesy, added the extra episode as a bonus. Hey presto, your Doom has been officially expanded.

Of course (IIRC) the Ultimate Doom was the first version of Doom that was officially available in high-street stores and I believe that part of the reason for the inclusion of the final episode was to increase the perceived value of the game to walk-in customers. (Perhaps also to encourage people who already owned the three episode game to buy another copy - although the free patch perhaps implies otherwise.)

None of that contradicts what you said, of course.

Personally, I have certainly always considered "Thy Flesh" as an expansion. I consider Doom to be the first three episodes and I consider the fourth episode as something that was merely tacked on as an extra that, even if some of the levels were quite nice, didn't really add much to the game nor did it (IMO) fit the flow, style or story of the core game. Of course, I'd been playing Doom for quite some time before the fourth episode was added and there will be plenty of players who have only ever known a four episode Doom.

I think that one of my problems with "Thy Flesh" is the theme. The first three episodes were definitely set in a place and were part of a tangible story. Although Episode 4 does have a reasonably consistent wood and metal gothic theme, it's pretty abstract and (as a result - IMO) at odds with the rest of the game.

Doom 2 unfortunately couldn't be an expansion pack of Doom 1 even if id wanted to, because it had more levels (32) than Doom 1 of that time (27). Expansion sets are supposed to have fewer maps, that seems to be pretty consistent. In any other case, Doom 2 did feel like a more modern for its time expansion pack. Compare it to Starcraft Broodwar or Diablo Lord of Destruction feature-wise.

I think if id Software have worked some more years on Doom 2 to improve the engine, Duke Nukem 3D would never have relased and id Software would have been the ultimate No.1. in the FPS gaming.

And also, our community would be more exciting if Doom and Doom had had different engines =)

Because editing Doom1 is near the same as editing Doom2. But editing Doom3 is only "half-popular" and also a really hard work, due to the technical differences.

Okay, it wasn't too clear but I hope you'll understand me :D

I think it's not an expansion pack!
Try playing HeXen Death kings, there are no new enemies!
It is therefore a sequel.
And it also has 1, 32 level ep.
Final Doom was an expansion pack.

It could be argued that Doom 2 was an expansion. It added a couple enemies and one gun, and a new set of maps, while re-using a lot of Doom 1 elements to a T. (As in, exact sprites, textures, etc. without any updates or alterations to fit with a new engine's features.) This would generally list it as an expansion pack, as is the case with Perseus Mandate and Extraction Point for F.E.A.R., (the amazing hour long $10 expansion) Reborn for F.E.A.R. 2, etc.

However, the sheer number of new maps and completely different map progression format (i.e. no separate, independently selectable episodes) push it more towards sequel status. That, and the big " II " in the title.

I honestly cannot understand what confusion in terms could've led to this thread being even started and drag on for so long.

It seems to be more about semantics e.g. is a PWAD an expansion?
Are sequels of games with similar engines expansions?
How about Metal Slug?
Mortal Kombat?
C&C
Age of Empires?
Are all Q3/Half-life engine-based engines just expansions?
What about those "data disks" that added just levels to older games and which don't work standalone? etc.

What next, "Was Doom merely an expansion to Wolfenstein/Maze War/Hello World"?

Maes said:

"Was Doom merely an expansion to Hello World"?

Heh, it kind of is.

DuckReconMajor said:

Heh, it kind of is.

Don't fall for the fancy words of those "developers" guys out there that try to sound creative and stuff: all programs are merely expansions to DEV-CPP's main.c template!

Enjay said:

Indeed, it has always confused me why the big 4000 hit point, rocket spewing cyberdemon was the boss of the middle episode and the relatively weak 3000 hitpoint chaingunning spider was the "big boss" at the end.

It's logical, if not satisfying from a difficulty progression point of view, that the final boss wouldn't be as tough as its bodyguard. Otherwise, it wouldn't even need a bodyguard, would it?

Doom 2 has M_EPI1 to 3

skib said:

Doom 2 has M_EPI1 to 3

It also has all the sprites and weapons from Doom 1, for that matter. But there's another reason why it's not an expansion pack proper.

Gez said:

It's logical, if not satisfying from a difficulty progression point of view, that the final boss wouldn't be as tough as its bodyguard. Otherwise, it wouldn't even need a bodyguard, would it?

Well, somebody's got to keep the amateurs out. Surely the Spider Mastermind has better things to do with its time than to sit around all day firing rounds into every space marine who wants to pick a fight.

Anything that uses doom.exe = expansion (shareware -> reg. upgrade, Ultimate Doom upgrade, any doom PWAD... even stuff like Aliens TC).

Doom II has its own doom2.exe, so it's a new game. But it also has expansions (any doom2 PWAD, including Master Levels, even stuff like HacX and Final Doom).

If we keep to the "strict" definition of an expansion pack, if id had released some sort of official super-patch that allowed you to "upgrade" your registered doom.exe to doom2.exe AND add the new Doom 2 (and later TNT, Plutonia)) levels which would be somehow selectable along with the original episodes, then yeah, we would be speaking about an expansion pack.

Wasn't something like this done with the Wolfenstein 3D "Nocturnal missions" and the add-on Quake mission packs? I think both of these required you to have the original game, while with Doom the closest the series ever got to something like this was with Ultimate Doom (and ID in fact, released an "v1.9 to Ultimate" patch which added the extra episode pro-bono, for all registered v1.9 users).

Maes said:

Wasn't something like this done with the Wolfenstein 3D "Nocturnal missions" and the add-on Quake mission packs? I think both of these required you to have the original game, while with Doom the closest the series ever got to something like this was with Ultimate Doom...

Well, and DOOM³: Resurrection of Evil.

hex11 said:

Anything that uses doom.exe = expansion (shareware -> reg. upgrade, Ultimate Doom upgrade, any doom PWAD... even stuff like Aliens TC).

Doom II has its own doom2.exe, so it's a new game. But it also has expansions (any doom2 PWAD, including Master Levels, even stuff like HacX and Final Doom).

That's some faulty logic. For example, Perseus Mandate, Extraction Point[Both F.E.A.R. expansions], and Brood War [Starcraft], for example, have their own executables. They're still expansions, as opposed to new games.(Something critics apparently forgot when reviewing Perseus Mandate.)

Sorry, I don't know any of those games... I just think that the engine is what determines what game you're playing, not what data files it happens to use.

I'm not sure, but maybe Final Doom also has a modified doom2.exe? I still consider that engine to be Doom II though, because it doesn't seem much (if anything) has changed.

It gets confusing with remakes, or source ports, because the same executable can be used to run or emulate different engine behaviors. Chocolate Doom is effectively either Doom or Doom II, depending on how you invoke it (different code paths are executed).

Xeros612 said:

That's some faulty logic. For example, Perseus Mandate, Extraction Point[Both F.E.A.R. expansions], and Brood War [Starcraft], for example, have their own executables. They're still expansions, as opposed to new games.(Something critics apparently forgot when reviewing Perseus Mandate.)

Did they require you owning the original game? If they did, they are still expansions, as opposed to stand-alone (but similar) games a-la Final Doom vs Doom 2.

In general, even "simple expansions" nowadays will have enough engine changes to justify a new executable, rather than being "data disks" in the strictest sense.

hex11 said:

I'm not sure, but maybe Final Doom also has a modified doom2.exe?

Yes, it does, but the changes are not so major, as shown by the fact that the Final Doom iwads can be used as pwads together with Doom2's Doom2.exe. Indeed, TeamTNT and the Casali brothers created their wads with it in mind that they would be used as pwads.