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Cell

When do you start putting tougher monsters into your Megawad?

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Progress has never been a strong point of mine, even knowing that starting off with a couple of Barons of Hell right in E2M1 would be rather a suicide play for almost everyone. Still, the question remained to me: where should exact monsters start in your wads which is "normal progressed" (e.g. not like HR2, AV, KS, WOS, etc.), and do difficulty settings postpone them even three or four maps later?

Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 progresses are both accepted.

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Something else to consider besides toughness, is introducing new elements at the right pace; hold too much back until the end of the game and people might get boerd with the early game. Introduce all the elements too early and there will be nothing at the end of the game to keep them playing. Be that badguys, weapons or visual themes.

In hindsight, I would claim that Doom2 brought in all it's bad guys and weapons too quickly; other than the Arch Vile, they were all introduced in the first 9 maps (the Arch Vile is introduced on Map11).

Though wheter that's an issue with a game we all know inside and out...

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It's not just the monster you need to consider but how many and how they're placed. A sole manc or rev won't cause much of a problem and to me are acceptable pretty early on but hordes should be held back until a little later. Or take the Mastermind in Doom 2. It first appears in MAP06, which seems too early on paper, but it's in a highly compromised position so it doesn't pose it's usual threat. On top of this, you'll have to accept that a) you won't please everyone anyway (as you'll no doubt learn by replies in this thread) and b) Rules are made to be broken. It's not good to be too formuliac.

Furthermore, to me weapon progression is vastly more important than monster progression.

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I envision the idea of placing a Spider Mastermind early in a Doom 2 megawad as an early boss, before the player gets better ammo. Like in Darkening.

Personal opinion: Doom 2 maps should use Doom 2 features right away (I mean especially little ones, like Chaingunners). I've seen several highly acclaimed Doom 2 wads that suffered of "Doom 1 syndrome", where the author thought he was mapping for Doom 1, almost only placing Doom 1 monsters (no SSG either). Examples: Suspended in Dusk, ZPack episode 1...

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When working on Reverie, I tried make the monster progression similar to Doom II. Certain things like the revenant appearing on MAP06, though depending on the difficulty some monsters do appear a little earlier. I think it's best to think of your favorite megawad and what kept you interested; then follow that formula (if you're going to be formulaic). Otherwise, I would agree with the "no rules" suggestion, in that sometimes when building a map I feel the need to place a certain monster in a certain spot because I can imagine that monster being a threat in that particular area.

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Doom 2 gave out its weapons too early for sure. I guess I can understand the SSG on MAP02 from a feature-introduction perspective (though I really prefer it when megawads wait a bit before handing out the trump card), but getting the BFG on MAP08 is just too bloody soon.

In contrast, MAP07 was an awesome introduction to two enemies. Mancubi and Arachnotrons are never seen until that point, and make quite a smashing entrance in a hectic fight. Such a memorable map...

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Xaser said:

Doom 2 gave out its weapons too early for sure. I guess I can understand the SSG on MAP02 from a feature-introduction perspective (though I really prefer it when megawads wait a bit before handing out the trump card), but getting the BFG on MAP08 is just too bloody soon.

You have a point here. I remember WOS scretching the gameplay without even secret SSG until MAP04. The BFG, however, appeared first on MAP07 not even being secret thing and despite it being guarded by tons of Mancubi it wasn't an extra feature to get it without more specific effort.

I was actually asking this because I have a personal project under construction, which received rather hate and refusion from the regular ones in here (except for, I assume, Hellbent), and this kind of progressing idea would have been a good hint how to improve. Still, the list is the one following:
- Zombiemen: MAP01
- Sergeants: MAP01
- Imps: MAP01
- Chaingunners: MAP02 (Med, Hard) or MAP03 (Easy)
- Demons: MAP02
- Spectres: MAP03
- Lost Souls: MAP04
- Cacodemons: MAP05
- Hell Knights: MAP05 (Hard) or MAP06 (Easy, Med)
- Revenants: MAP06
- Mancubi: MAP07
- Arachnotrons: MAP07
- Pain Elementals: MAP08
- Barons of Hell: MAP11*
- Archviles: MAP12 (Hard), MAP14 (Med) or MAP16 (Easy)**
- Cyberdemons: MAP20* **
- Spider Masterminds: MAP29* **

* These are actually features of the speciality of the Wad itself.
** May be ecountered earlier if any of the secret levels are played.

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I use to throw in monsters were ever they fit, but of I have limitation.

in fact so hard limitation, that revenats dont appear before you have been playing through much quite important content of the wad's story

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