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DoomUK

Would you want Doom 4 to be this...

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Disregard the sparse and vague indications of what Doom 4 will play like for a moment and assume it's a blank canvas that's yet to be put into motion. How many of you would like Doom 4 to play exactly like the original game(s)? Terse and very minimal plot and exposition, no scripting, silent protagonist, no friendly NPCs, non-linear level design, the ability to run at inhuman speeds, no jumping, no crouching, no mouselook. And of course a shitload of demons to shoot at or get raped by.

I'm just curious as to whether such a game would satisfy everyone. I have my own thoughts, but I'd rather hear what the rest of you have to say.

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Would I like a modern game with minimal plot, no scripting, a silent protagonist, no friendly NPCs, and inhuman run speed? Essentially, would I like a classic first-person shooter made with the same budget and technology that current FPS games enjoy? You'd better believe it.

Would I like that game to be called Doom 4? No.

I love the original Dooms, and I would love to see more games like that made today, but the Doom franchise is no longer the place to do that. I liked the new, slower, darker approach to Doom 3, and I'm looking forward to seeing a sequel to that game, not another reboot of the series.

**I left out a number of the attributes of your proposed game. I suppose that means I technically didn't answer the question. While I could see by some act of God a modern shooter playing like the classics, things like no jumping, crouching, and mouselook seem like technology limitations rather than gameplay choices. Finally, I dropped simplistic level design because that one just threw me for a loop. If anything, the levels are far more complicated than modern shooters. Unless you meant in terms of architecture, not actual layout.

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I probably won't get my wish of the Titanic: The Game with you as Rose and John Carmack as Jack. So I'm just going to say I don't care as long as it's fun.

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No, I don't actually want it to be like the original game much at all. I already have Classic Doom; I don't need an updated rehash with identical gameplay and fancier graphics.

Of the things that I think could still work well in Doom 4, the fast pacing and ludicrous player speed are what I'd like to see most. They can cram the game full of as much interactive shit and as many characters and cutscenes as they want, so long as the action isn't slow when it does rear its head.

I'd also like some level design that rewards exploration; Doom 3 wasn't actually that bad for this, so unless they make Doom 4 even more of a rails shooter, I'll probably be happy.

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A modern game without jumping and crouching and with no mouselook wouldn't fit very well with 3D graphics. It just wouldn't look right.

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DoomUK said:

How many of you would like Doom 4 to play exactly like the original game(s)?

I'd like that, if for no other reason but to see how well that game would succeed (or not) among other modern shooters.

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I'd like to see some of those aspects, but not all. As Ryathaen said, some things like jumping, crouching, mouselook, are technology limitations, rather than design choices. I actually get a bit annoyed by FPS games that inhibit you from jumping. Bulletstorm does this, instead opting for the annoying prompt whenever you get to an obstacle you're allowed to jump over. CoD games do this as well, and it really restricts exploration, and gives the player a sense that they're on rails. Which they largely are, in the games I just mentioned.

Similarly, any game which is played in a 3D world without the ability to look around on every axis would just be a needless limitation, and would alienate many players. There's no advantage to it at all, in gameplay, story or anything else.

I would like to see a return to classic Doom's level design however. Not the absolute simplistic detail, or even the often abstract designs, but more the layout, and flow of the maps. I'd like to see nonlinearity. I'd like to have to go find a key, and then find another key, in order to progress. I use 'key' as an example from Doom, but these things don't have to be Keys. Doom 3 actually did this more than people realise, because they didn't associate a code or security clearance in a PDA with a glowing red keycard pickup. Doom3 still ended up being pretty linear though, and I would like a return to the more open layout, with options. Normal play might take you to the locked door first, or you might have taken a different turning, and found the key first. Neither is a bad thing. With Doom 4 being developed on IdTech 5, I'm hopeful for this, because of the apparent openness and size of Rage's maps.

And as for more demons, Hell yes (hurrr). Carmack has already hinted at '30 demons at once', which sounds excellent. That's not to say I'd like the game to become a Serious Sam type game. We have Serious Sam 3 for that, and it looks to be covering that base nicely. But the design of Doom3 tended toward encounters of no more than 2 or 3 monsters ever attacking you at once. And by design, I'm referring to the design of the maps, the design of the monsters, and the design of the weapons. The whole game was engineered towards a "no more than 2 schoolchildren allowed in the DoomGuy SweetShop at once, please" kind of feel. The maps were cramped, but beyond that, the design of the monsters meant that they just didn't work well in packs. They got mixed up together, and some would even refuse to use ranged attacks because they didnt get line of sight on the player due to another monster in the way, despite having attacks that could lob over said monster. And the weapons, too. You tended to have to reload every couple of kills, with most of the weapons. And this "kills per clip" number really has a noticable effect on gameplay. If you try adding more monsters without addressing this, the player soon gets swamped and is unable to cope, due to the constant need to reload or switch guns. This is a problem I've run into a couple of times in my work for D3:Phobos. Classic Doom never had these issues because you never had to reload. I'd like to see weapon design done in mind of larger encounters in Doom 4.

But still, these ideas, while taken as examples from classic Doom, wouldn't really make the game "like" classic doom. This post has become really huge, and if you've gotten this far without skimming, thanks for reading. :P

TL;DR: Not really, though there are some design choices which were present in classic doom that I think should be pursued.

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Jodwin said:

I'd like that, if for no other reason but to see how well that game would succeed (or not) among other modern shooters.


Most probably it would be labeled "arcade" and "not tactical enough" by reviewers, or some shit of that sort.

But pipe dreams apart, if ID wanted to make some sort of official super source port of the classic Doom, they'd have already done that a long time ago. Today, a FPS with the design premises of classical Doom would be too different from what the market has developed a taste for, and I don't think id would be willing to take that risk. I wouldn't be surprised if Doom 4 ends up being something akin to Fallout 3 in gameplay.

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DuckReconMajor said:

You can jump in every Call of Duty game I've owned, albeit not very high.


Hmm. I seem to recall not being able to jump freely in one of the Recent SP campaigns. Might have been the new Medal of Honor or something.

Maes said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Doom 4 ends up being something akin to Fallout 3 in gameplay.


I would. Fallout 3 is far more open ended than I think Doom 4 would end up being. I've heard the word 'Cinematic' thrown out in relation to Doom 4, and that to me means telling a specific story, which is very hard in an open free roaming environment like that, without resorting to the Quest type structure which Fallout has. Which works fine for Fallout because it's an RPG at heart.

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DoomUK said:

Terse and very minimal plot and exposition,

Nope. Even if Doom 1 (not 2) has a very solid sci-fi/fantasy setting, it is very laconically story-told, causing utter crap like the comic or the movie to follow (I don't think highly of the novels either). The Doom 3 plot healed this problem, even if it has some corny characters (Dr Betruger -- at least he can be amusing). I prefer the Blizzard story model: completely safe to ignore (just like Id's themes) but totally awesome to listen to.

no scripting,

Again disagreeing. Scripts aren't bad; they're just tools, which can be used for awesome effects or uninspired effects. Sometimes it's more efficient to design a few atomic object movement functions and combine them via scripts, than create tons of combos meant to run only directly.

silent protagonist,

No problem here. Doomguy is much more determined by not talking about things.

no friendly NPCs,

I agree here. See Hexen as an outstanding example. NPCs serve no good purpose in the lands of all evil where everything tries to kill you, not to mention that they look awkward when just standing in place and waiting for your input, like some vending machines. And friendly soldiers? No... They are unneeded when you can survive by yourself.

non-linear level design,

Obviously. Doom needs a breath of fresh nonlinear air. However, this needs editing tools good enough to allow the relatively long mapping time needed for a nonlinear level.

the ability to run at inhuman speeds,

Not as fast as Doom. That's way too fast and makes the need of implementation of vehicles (whose very purpose is to make you travel fast, crush enemies and be aware of accidents) questionable. But make him as fast as in Quake, or a bit faster. As a reference, the Quake ranger runs at 320 units per second and the Doom guy at about 600 units per second. Wow!

no jumping, no crouching, no mouselook.

Absolutely disagree here. These are true 3d games and the marine probably won't be in space anyway wearing a helmet disallowing freelook, or gravity disallowing jumping.

And of course a shitload of demons to shoot at or get raped by.

If they're placed intelligently, yes. But if it's unimaginative slaughtermap design without the charms of vanilla slaughtermaps, forget it.

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Doom 3 is certainly not without its charm, but yes, I would like to see many of "classic" Doom's elements, specifically the large, exploration-oriented maps, the emphasis on demonic iconography/enemy design, and the diversity in themes that Doom 2 explored--techbase, hell, cavern, city, industrial, etc. As far the ridiculous run speed? It would be pretty silly to see a detailed, next-gen Doom guy running around at 50 miles per hour, but maybe it can work. Someone on here made an excellent model of the marine, and added a detail to his shins that implied some sort of augmentation for faster running, which the military is probably already working on anyway. Maybe it could be a upgrade or a temporary power-up.

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Having a "Mega Man 9" style retro revival for DOOM 4 would be kind of neat, but also fairly pointless since a good mod could do the same.

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This is my response to the first opening post of this thread:

Doom 4 would have to be a reanimation of Hell on Earth. Things I recall distinctly about Doom 2: Hell on Earth are that the game was very easy to pick up and play, because by the time it came out, everyone was playing Doom 1 to death. So when they picked up Doom 2, players were playing a significantly elongated version of a game they knew and loved.

Id software definitely fucked up in the pickup-and-play feeling with Doom 3 with the "switch to shotgun, shoot, switch to flashlight, repeat" concept. Coupled with a player that walked like an old lady, cramped dark hallways, wolf3d style labyrinthine exploration, and cutscenes, they're gonna have to take Doom into a new direction.

Ideally, to make something that will last a long time, Doom 4 is going to need to be that game that at any point in time, you can load that game up, shoot stuff till your hearts content, save and document your progress, and put it down. It needs a strong gameplay foundation like Doom 1 and 2 do. So yes. Classic gameplay. Wide open spaces to encourage freedom of movement, tons of enemies, lots of available guns, TONS of ammunition. You are limited to the abilities of running really fast in 8 different directions, rotating left and right to aim, SHOOTING, and operating switches/doors whatever. You can carry a varied assortment of firepower, all with distinct strengths and weaknesses. There are no other controls in the game. No regenerating health, no ducking, jumping, looking up, no body armor, no calling for backup, no throwing grenades, no reloading guns, no mission briefings or objectives, no cutscenes, no special moves or equipment or other unnecessary bullshit. Just raw shooting. Shooting at everything that moves, collecting weapons, health, and ammunition, dodging attacks, and maneuvering across miles of terrain.

The game is divided up into 60 levels. First ten taking place in UAC Earth Bases. UAC Soldiers come in two flavors, zombified or crucified. The unforgiving territory littered with human landfills of UAC personell. crawling with beasts and mutant death machines.

The next thirty levels taking place in the chaotic streets, fortified industrial zones, desolate suburbs, and the crumbling remains of what was once the American Dream. Your hometown, population zero. Cities drenched in floods of blood and human entrails. Homes engulfed in flames. Screams of terror and anguish. Human bodies and skeletons impaled over street signs and hanging out of windows. Fucking swarms of giant minotaur-looking freaks wreaking havoc on the city with gattling guns for arms, breath of fire, and genocide in their eyes. Leading insurmountable numbers of heathen, bent on turning the planet into a regular ground zero.

The following 30 levels descend deep into the core of your home town, the source of the alien invasion. Cyberdemons rising from the ashes and magma, launching volleys of homing missiles that will splatter the player in a single blast. Crashing through the fiery inferno until finally arriving at the heart, the Icon of Sin, the biggest baddest demon spawn of em all, whose only ability is to create intense torment and demise for all things holy by way of summoning an infinite number of demon spawn at a rate incalculable by man.

The player, nothing more than a human weapon must unleash all the firepower he can deliver and more in order to put to rest the worst apocalyptic demon invasion every witnessed by the face of humanity.

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40oz said:

The game divided up into 60 levels.


This alone pretty much reduces your chances of getting your dream game to 0. You're lucky to have an FPS with 30 levels, in most cases.

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I dont fucking care. I don't plan on buying Doom 4 because I'm 100% sure its not going to be like what I said. And I don't expect anyone to create a game like it anytime soon. But this is what I want Doom 4 to be. That's what I posted to say.

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40oz said:

no body armor,

You don't like the armor system in classic DOom?

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It's not really necessary. I mean, it's beneficial as monsters get significantly stronger in Doom 2, especially when hell knights and revenants can take you out in a single blow, I just prefer the feeling of being vulnerable over not avoiding attacks with as much pressure just because I can absorb more damage.

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Doom 4 needs to have the fast game play of the original game and not be too story orientated, not annoying amounts of dark hallways and trying to make the player scared or some shit like its predecessor Doom 3.

Something more mysterious, even the original game didn't give too much away in terms of the story, if you ever played the version of demon souls without the handbook (and not resulting to the interwebs), you'd know what I mean

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Well, wait until we get to see a screenshot or somesuch and a lot of things will be able to be extrapolated from context.

As for Fallout 3, I was referring more to the combat system, rather than the storytelling/character development. Scary, wouldn't it be?

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printz said:

Not as fast as Doom. That's way too fast and makes the need of implementation of vehicles (whose very purpose is to make you travel fast, crush enemies and be aware of accidents) questionable. But make him as fast as in Quake, or a bit faster. As a reference, the Quake ranger runs at 320 units per second and the Doom guy at about 600 units per second. Wow!

Why on earth should Doom 4 have vehicles at all? They are completely unnecessary and should be kicked out from the FPS genre ASAP. As for Quake's running speed, that's still way too slow. Quake is much more boring to play than Doom is, and that speed is a major contributing factor right there.


@Maes: So what if the reviewers would call it arcadey? After all, that's what it would be, and that's what makes Doom as good as it is.

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Jodwin said:

Why on earth should Doom 4 have vehicles at all? They are completely unnecessary and should be kicked out from the FPS genre ASAP.

My only dilemma is how would you be able to shoot things while riding a motorbike (which looks cool), without resorting to mounted machine or gatling guns on the bike (which looks corny). I think that some kind of titanium shield, and the only means of defeating monsters being to ram into them (kinda like being berserk) with a spiked motorbike with their corpses left impaled like shish kebab, then have a button to toss them away to free weight, would be fine enough.

Could work if such a motorbike appears as an optional (not plot-required) powerup to help you live in monster-heavy open spaces.

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Jodwin said:

Why on earth should Doom 4 have vehicles at all? They are completely unnecessary and should be kicked out from the FPS genre ASAP.


Amen to that.

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Jodwin said:

@Maes: So what if the reviewers would call it arcadey? After all, that's what it would be, and that's what makes Doom as good as it is.


Two words: fashion victim.

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Jodwin said:

Why on earth should Doom 4 have vehicles at all? They are completely unnecessary and should be kicked out from the FPS genre ASAP.


Vehicles have their place in FPSes, but I agree, that place is not in a Doom game.

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Modern FPS shooter in campaign mode: 6-10 hours of playing time

Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 in single player mode: 20 years of playing time

Just don't give us any more "link up with alpha team" crap, why does every FPS shooter have to have its variations on this theme?

EDIT: And no over-stretched super-linear tank maps please, make either a tank game or a first-person game, don't blur the lines or you lose focus. Also don't do another Doom 3 please, I played Resident Evil fifteen years ago and that was much, much, much scarier. You can't make Resident Evil out of Doom.

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Jodwin said:

Why on earth should Doom 4 have vehicles at all? They are completely unnecessary and should be kicked out from the FPS genre ASAP. As for Quake's running speed, that's still way too slow. Quake is much more boring to play than Doom is, and that speed is a major contributing factor right there.


@Maes: So what if the reviewers would call it arcadey? After all, that's what it would be, and that's what makes Doom as good as it is.


depends on the player's speed and the landscape. If Doom 4 were a retelling of Doom 2, which is supposed to be set on earth, vehicles would be a must for traveling in outdoor.

But Rage is the only id game that contains vehicles, and vehicles in FPS was one of the reasons Carmack chose to explore in a new theme so it's unlikely to see that to repeat in Doom 4.

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More than anything, I want to see a return to large, sprawling environments with interconnected areas, like Doom and other classic shooters. That's what attracts me to the game the most. Of course I want to see classic idioms, like demonic imagery, badass weapons, fast-paced action and tons of enemies, but more than anything else, I want clever level design.

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