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neubejiita

Doom is like Mario.

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He is wrong on at least one point:

you CAN make two Barons of Hell fight each other, if you get them to claw swipe one another

AFAIK this was never the case (though it was true of demons & spectres in early versions.)

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I fell for the trick he used with that title and thought that I would strongly disagree but that "handsome fat man" is obviously a Doomer. Fun read. Thank you.

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finnw said:
AFAIK this was never the case (though it was true of demons & spectres in early versions.) [/B]

To do this, you'd need some barrels. See E1M8 demos.

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I'm not sure I agree with most of the points, I feel like most of the points he made about Doom being like mario are better suited for another game.

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those mario comparisons aren't very convincing. he makes them sound as abstract as possible, but it doesn't work for me.

...and has abilities and tools tuned very well to the challenges he must face (Mario, and many classic NES titles like Castlevania).

guybrush threepwood has the ability to create a monkey wrench from a monkey. and hold breath for 10 minutes. i guess monkey island is a lot like doom then.

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...and has abilities and tools tuned very well to the challenges he must face

Doesn't this apply to... pretty much every protagonist ever?

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Except Mario has been milked to death as one of Nintendo's flagship IPs.

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tempun said:

To do this, you'd need some barrels. See E1M8 demos.

Yes but I think he was referring to melee attacks accidentally hitting a creature other than the target.

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I don't think that can happen, ever, considering that a melee attack for monsters, as I recall, is nothing but a distance check and then just dealing direct damage to the current target, unlike those of the player, which are short-ranged hitscans.

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Doom is like Rogue. You go down in dungeons, pick up loot (health, armor, weapons, powerups...) and fight monsters, while searching for the exit to the next level. In both Doom and Rogue, you start playing right away, as a basic human fighter(marine), without any special/customizable traits or skills. Both games are ultra-simple and don't have any complicated story or mechanics.

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I don't agree with his strained Mario comparison but I'm with him with his point about Doom 3. I'd also wondered to myself what might have been if id had done with Doom 3 what Capcom did with the new Street Fighter or Nintendo did with New Super Mario Bros.

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Yeah, I'm not really seeing what he's arguing here. Those 'points' he made can be applied to dozens of other games in dozens of other genres. Yawn.

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I enjoyed Doom 3 for what it was, a Half-Life clone, but it's true, Doom 3 failed to live up to the expectations of being another Doom 1 or 2.

I truly hope, but doubt that, DOOM 4 will be this dream DOOM game, with Classic DOOM’s mechanics, aesthetics, and heart thoughtfully updated and improved.

I hope so too, but I won't mind too much if they fail again. There's still a few serious games.

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chungy said:

Doom 3 failed to live up to the expectations of being another Doom 1 or 2.

Excuse me, what would these expectations be? I think Doom 3 did a far better job than if it had been a serious sam with demons or painkiller kinda game. I never saw doom as that, at least the iwads.

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Those expectations would be a fast-paced action shooter; I want hordes of monsters. A slow-paced shooter where action takes a back seat to the story is Half-Life's territory; this isn't a bad thing, but it's not what's expected from Doom.

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chungy said:

Those expectations would be a fast-paced action shooter; I want hordes of monsters.

I would've fucking HATED doom 3 if it was that. When were there ever hordes of monsters in doom 1 or 2? It was mostly mazes with traps! Only a few ridiculous moments here and there like the hellkniht hordes in the caves of Nirvana. Doom 3 was perfect for me. But oh well, this is kinda offtopic here.

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Antroid said:

I would've fucking HATED doom 3 if it was that. When were there ever hordes of monsters in doom 1 or 2? It was mostly mazes with traps! Only a few ridiculous moments here and there like the hellkniht hordes in the caves of Nirvana. Doom 3 was perfect for me. But oh well, this is kinda offtopic here.

Counterpoint: When were there more than three monsters in the same room in Doom 3? "Hoards" may not be the correct term, but there were a lot more monsters attacking you at once in the original Doom games.

Doom 3 failed at being Doom and failed at being a modern game. It was somewhere in between the two, keeping most of the bad aspects of both.

And yeah, the Mario analogy is pushing it, but the article's points about Doom and Doom 3 are spot on.

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Dragonsbrethren said:

Doom 3 failed at being Doom and failed at being a modern game. It was somewhere in between the two, keeping most of the bad aspects of both.

Yeah. I like modern shooters but I can't get more than a few hours into Doom 3 before I get bored and end up starting over months later.

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Dragonsbrethren said:

Counterpoint: When were there more than three monsters in the same room in Doom 3? "Hoards" may not be the correct term, but there were a lot more monsters attacking you at once in the original Doom games.

Doom 3 failed at being Doom and failed at being a modern game. It was somewhere in between the two, keeping most of the bad aspects of both.

A lot of times actually! But i get your point, even though i disagree with it completely. Different people feel differently about the originals, i guess i'm lucky that my "vision" was so close to what we got in doom3. And thank god that it wasn't a "modern game" in spirit, only in technical terms. It took what i felt was almost the essence of Doom 1 and dressed it in modern technology, creating absolutely awesome tense atmosphere. Yeah can you tell i love that game :D

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Dragonsbrethren said:

Doom 3 failed at being Doom and failed at being a modern game. It was somewhere in between the two, keeping most of the bad aspects of both.

It was every bit as much of a modern game of 2004 as Half-Life 2. Demonic invasion of military base on mars with one mute marine left alive and able to fight them off works pretty well as a Doom game as well, albeit a bit closer to the Doom bible than what the final product of the originals was. If anything, it failed at being a good horror game.

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That's, just, like, your opinion, man! I've never felt such a tense and dark atmosphere as d3 could create. Other horror games that aim to be horror are usually cheesy and unscary. With the exception of call of cthulhu DCotE. But that one owed it all to chase scenes.

edit: of course that is not to say that d3 wasn't horribly cheesy in places, like most of Betruger's voice clips. But that was insignificant.

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InsanityBringer said:

I don't think that can happen, ever, considering that a melee attack for monsters, as I recall, is nothing but a distance check and then just dealing direct damage to the current target, unlike those of the player, which are short-ranged hitscans.

In early versions of Doom the demon's bite was a kind of hitscan attack that ignored the Z axis, so you could trick them into biting each other.

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Somehow I got two chaingunners to attack each other on different Z axis levels, so they never hit each other. I guess if i didn't get bored watching them it would have continued infinitely. I believe it was map 28 of Doom 2 Reloaded. Never got it to happen again.

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Antroid said:

like most of Betruger's voice clips.

"I have the soul cube with me in hell, and you'll never find it!" Comes to mind.

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Mario has levels
Doom has levels

Mario is a plumber
DoomGuy is a spacemarine

Mario sold systems
Doom sells systems

They are similar

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hex11 said:

Doom is like Rogue. You go down in dungeons, pick up loot (health, armor, weapons, powerups...) and fight monsters, while searching for the exit to the next level. In both Doom and Rogue, you start playing right away, as a basic human fighter(marine), without any special/customizable traits or skills. Both games are ultra-simple and don't have any complicated story or mechanics.

Yeah. This is a much more apt comparison. Both games do a simplified but none the less compelling 'struggle for survival' thing well. I'd even take it a step future and say that both games simple goals and strait forward settings leave a fair bit to the imagination: The world is a simple or as deep as your imagination cares to have it.

Also Doom has less annoying fans then Mario does.

Belial said:

The best comparison I've heard is that Doom is like Robotron in 3D.


Ugh. I *HATE* this comparison. It might be fitting to Serious Sam and Painkiller, but Doom has a good bit of exploration, puzzle solving and resource management going on in addition to monster slaying. Sure, there are more monsters in it then many modern shooters, but it wasn't all 'monster Monsters MONSTERS!' like people seem to remember.

It worries me that it's going to lead to Doom 4 being a Bad Serious Sam clone.

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