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skillsaw

Lunatic.wad - idgames download available

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skillsaw said:

By the way, there's one map in Vanguard that I think is fucking terrible. Like really terrible, horrible bad, but somehow no one's called me out on it. Wonder if anyone can figure out which.


I don't have any level in Vanguard I didn't like but here goes the guessing game...Map06? If that's not correct my secondary guess would be Map03. I'd have a third, fourth guess, etc. but I'd like to see if I've guessed it already.

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You haven't guessed it. I'm not sure if I'll give you more guesses. I might take this secret to my grave :P

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skillsaw said:

You haven't guessed it. I'm not sure if I'll give you more guesses. I might take this secret to my grave :P


Nah, now you've really got me curious. Let me look at every map and throw out two more guesses:

Primary guess: Map07
Secondary guess: Map05

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Nope.

Despite both of those maps being done in only a single day each, I'm pretty happy with them.

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Tango said:

i quit mapping. again.

(again)






(again)


Is it my imagination, or do we always seem to quit mapping at the same time? Because I saw this, and yeah... I quit.

skillsaw said:

Nope.

Despite both of those maps being done in only a single day each, I'm pretty happy with them.

The only map I wasn't ecstatic about in Vanguard was Map08... Something about it felt a bit underwhelming compared to the rest of the wad.

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Nice work skillsaw. I enjoyed playing this.

Tested with Risen3D.

Stuff noted ...

Map 01 ...

Lines 3518 and 3528 need to be lower unpegged also ( same as lines 3525 and 2818 )

Map 02 ...

1.Mid tex on line 831 bleeds into the floor in software ports.
2.Notice that the brightness differs at the lower of lines 4124 to 3997 etc. etc.
3.Line special and tags can be removed from lines 20-23.

Map 04 ...

Sectors 132 and 145 can have tag 1 removed.

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Snakes said:

The only map I wasn't ecstatic about in Vanguard was Map08... Something about it felt a bit underwhelming compared to the rest of the wad.


Snakes wins. I hate this map, I was planning on redoing it but I was too burned out on the project go through with it. I ended up including it just to preserve the 5-level episodic structure.

And thanks Hawkwind! I'll add those issues to my list of things to fix.

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I really liked these maps, great job. Obviously I liked map05 the most, but the rest had a very nice and cohesive theme and were fun to play. The altered enemies were challenging, although a bit annoying in that they make no sound when firing, so if you get caught unawares you take a ton of damage. Well, here are my fdas. I think I made a mistake in saying no deaths til 5, I think I died to those plasma guys on map03.

And no snakes, don't quite mapping! (again) You made some fun maps.

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skillsaw said:

Snakes wins. I hate this map, I was planning on redoing it but I was too burned out on the project go through with it. I ended up including it just to preserve the 5-level episodic structure.

And thanks Hawkwind! I'll add those issues to my list of things to fix.


Congrats to Snakes, he wins over me! :) Honestly though I did not hate Map08. One of the weaker maps, but "hate" wouldn't describe it. And per the /newstuff review, I doubt Snakes hated it either.

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Trying to play this in Skulltag survival with a friend. We found MAP01 to be impossible to complete (couldn't get to lowering the red key). MAP02 spawned me inside a small square that was inescapable, and the map was impossible to complete (couldn't get past the the room the red key opened). The maps look really nice though, but we're not getting too far on it. ;)

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tm512 said:

Trying to play this in Skulltag survival with a friend. We found MAP01 to be impossible to complete (couldn't get to lowering the red key). MAP02 spawned me inside a small square that was inescapable, and the map was impossible to complete (couldn't get past the the room the red key opened). The maps look really nice though, but we're not getting too far on it. ;)


Not sure this project was made with survival in mind. If it was, then good constructive criticism.

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This was OK.

Good - new monsters. I really like 'em, especially the rocket dude. In my opinion he can replace revenants completely.

Setting - very unique, and obviously it all looks pretty nice. I really liked the shadows of the first few levels!

I'm not overly a fan of the gameplay though. The main problem I see is the huge amount of space the player gets to run around in. It's totally style over gameplay. This leads to some generally easy action. Almost always when I found myself in a jam I could just back off and let the monsters come to me, picking them off as they trickle in. once enough of the hitscanners were gone it was pretty easy to just find a nice circling pattern to take care of the rest without too much effort.

With such huge amounts of enemies, infighting often played more a role then I did, which I feel often detracts from my sense of accomplishment.

Secrets are pretty unrewarding. They do not open up a new aspect of the map, such as whole new areas, or provide tactical advantages in fights. Most are just big enough for the powerup they provide.

There just isn't much depth to gameplay like this. I feel like DOOM is capable of much more then just shooting monsters, contrary to popular belief.

Best fight - final level. This felt like the proper amount of monsters for all the space provided. This level was the standout of the WAD and fun for sure.

Worst fight - After the 3 key switch of level 3. It opened up a bunch of zombies that I could just stand at a corner of and shoot with my chaingun. They did most of the work for me, and it was just kind of pointless.

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I'm on MAP02 and I think this amazing so far! My only complaint is that MAP01's music seems a bit too...happy IMO. Just as a suggestion, I think DTWID's E1M1 track would fit that map perfectly. It'd be more serious but it'd still keep that 'arcade' feel.

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MAP01's music is from the first level of Tyrian. Its use here is somehow so fitting that it's borderline-legendary in my eyes.

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DTWID's soundtrack blows, please don't use it. :)

NaturalTvventy said:

Wow, way to be a buzzkill. So gameplay that isn't cramped and doesn't close the door behind you whenever a new set of monsters is unleashed is now considered bad? Fuck yeah lets all overkill the set piece arena styled gameplay like "The Awakening" did.

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more fdas
i see you expected that wall trick in 02. i broke one of the teleporter closets in 04, not sure why exactly.

i love this mapset. it could be another episode in vanguard, but a standalone wad is fine too. :) mad props for using tyrian music and final level made me laugh.

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DeathevokatioN said:

Wow, way to be a buzzkill. So gameplay that isn't cramped and doesn't close the door behind you whenever a new set of monsters is unleashed is now considered bad? Fuck yeah lets all overkill the set piece arena styled gameplay like "The Awakening" did.


Opinions? You almost seem personally slighted by what he's said. I've not played this .WAD yet (looking forwards to giving the final version a go though!), but from a general standpoint I can see where NT is coming from.

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Just finished playing this mapset and it is a masterpiece, this was such a pleasure to play through. Thanks a ton for releasing this, Skillsaw. :)

Phobus said:

Opinions? You almost seem personally slighted by what he's said. I've not played this .WAD yet (looking forwards to giving the final version a go though!), but from a general standpoint I can see where NT is coming from.

I can understand that gameplay with alot of monsters that focuses on fast paced arcade styled action while giving you room to run around in probably isn't for everyone. But labeling it design over gameplay and trying to preach about how there is no depth to the gameplay is just ridiculous. I'd rather not get too much into this and derail the thread from the actual wad.

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NaturalTvventy said:
Good - new monsters. I really like 'em, especially the rocket dude. In my opinion he can replace revenants completely.

i like the plasma zombie, he's less predictable than arachnotrons and surprisingly deadly in close combat. i'm not sold on the rocket guy, he takes forever to spawn the projectile like he's laying eggs, but then it appears too high considering his sprite size. ssg nearly removes any threat from him, because he lacks the rev's speed and health.

Setting - very unique, and obviously it all looks pretty nice. I really liked the shadows of the first few levels!

i actually thought the outdoor parts looked a bit like uac ultra and the buildings resemble skillsaw's own vanguard. :P

I'm not overly a fan of the gameplay though. The main problem I see is the huge amount of space the player gets to run around in. It's totally style over gameplay. This leads to some generally easy action. Almost always when I found myself in a jam I could just back off and let the monsters come to me, picking them off as they trickle in. once enough of the hitscanners were gone it was pretty easy to just find a nice circling pattern to take care of the rest without too much effort.

i disagree and i think you're missing the point by a mile. when i look at skillsaw's style, i see erik alm's follower. the general spacing seems pretty consistent with, say, scythe 2. i love running through packs of monsters, using all the ungodly speed the doomguy possesses. i can enjoy less roomy design as well, but we get that in the arena minifights in map01 or map03 and basically the whole map02. i also want to see you "pick them off as they trickle in" in map05. :p and to support what deathevokation said, overreliance on cramped design leads to crappy micro-scripted scenarios with little to no variance (and therefore pathetic replayability).

i actually feel like skillsaw is dancing at the edge of falling into the set piece arenas hell himself, there's quite a few "locked in a room" fights for just 5 maps and there's usually very limited space - it's tolerable, but any more and the gameplay would feel choppy and forced. so you have to be complaining about the more impressive large areas with tons of monsters you gotta "conquer." i like that style and i'll leave it at that.

With such huge amounts of enemies, infighting often played more a role then I did, which I feel often detracts from my sense of accomplishment.

uh, i disagree fervently. infighting is one of the very best features of doom and i feel like job well fucking done when i manipulate a horde into decimating itself with me just dancing around/through and picking off targets of interest. map05 feels like surviving a massive battle, it'd suck a lot with monolithic hordes and dumb weapon spam.

Secrets are pretty unrewarding. They do not open up a new aspect of the map, such as whole new areas, or provide tactical advantages in fights. Most are just big enough for the powerup they provide.

this is true, but secrets often cause imbalance if they are too rich. it's actually a bad habit to stick a weapon in a secret, but spam the level with ammo for it. that doesn't open new aspects, that's just penalizing the player harshly for not finding your secrets. i'm intrigued by what you mean by tactical advantages... if you mean shortcuts or safe spots in otherwise tough battles, then that is a great idea, but i don't recall ANY wad that'd really work like this.

There just isn't much depth to gameplay like this. I feel like DOOM is capable of much more then just shooting monsters, contrary to popular belief.

um, what? you first complained about too much running away, then about too much infighting, now about too much dumb shooting. i think you're contradicting yourself A LOT.

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dew said:

um, what? you first complained about too much running away, then about too much infighting, now about too much dumb shooting. i think you're contradicting yourself A LOT.


Not strictly true - a lot of "less intelligent" gameplay would boil down to a mixture of running around an infighting horde shotting away indiscriminately until everything is dead. These tend to be quite linear, not involve much in the way of exploration or puzzle-solving.

I see no contradiction in what he said and I don't see why his personal opinion is "preaching", "ridiculous" or needs such a large amount of hate rallied against it. Yeah you can disagree with him, but that doesn't make him wrong and you right.


Whatever the case, I can't form my own opinion on the .wad yet as I'm waiting for the final release.

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MegaDoomer said:

Not sure this project was made with survival in mind. If it was, then good constructive criticism.

The .txt said that coop starts were in, but that it was untested. I was simply pointing out that no, these maps do not work in coop unless I messed up with the settings somewhere.

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NaturalTvventy said:

This was OK.

Good - new monsters. I really like 'em, especially the rocket dude. In my opinion he can replace revenants completely.

Setting - very unique, and obviously it all looks pretty nice. I really liked the shadows of the first few levels!

I'm not overly a fan of the gameplay though. The main problem I see is the huge amount of space the player gets to run around in. It's totally style over gameplay. This leads to some generally easy action. Almost always when I found myself in a jam I could just back off and let the monsters come to me, picking them off as they trickle in. once enough of the hitscanners were gone it was pretty easy to just find a nice circling pattern to take care of the rest without too much effort.

With such huge amounts of enemies, infighting often played more a role then I did, which I feel often detracts from my sense of accomplishment.

Secrets are pretty unrewarding. They do not open up a new aspect of the map, such as whole new areas, or provide tactical advantages in fights. Most are just big enough for the powerup they provide.

There just isn't much depth to gameplay like this. I feel like DOOM is capable of much more then just shooting monsters, contrary to popular belief.

Best fight - final level. This felt like the proper amount of monsters for all the space provided. This level was the standout of the WAD and fun for sure.

Worst fight - After the 3 key switch of level 3. It opened up a bunch of zombies that I could just stand at a corner of and shoot with my chaingun. They did most of the work for me, and it was just kind of pointless.


Thanks for playing through even though it wasn't your thing. I value this kind of feedback every bit as much as the positive - and you raise several legitimate points.

I've always been poor at including secrets in my maps, and I'll try to go through and add a few here and there before I release the final build of this.

The fight with the zombiemen on map03 has been on my radar for a while and I've been trying to come up with something better to replace it, but I haven't thought of anything yet. Hoping to find some inspiration today.

As far as infighting and lots of open space go, that's just going to be a feature of my maps. We'll have to disagree here. I agree with most of what dew said about freedom of movement and encouraging the use of infighting being because they are so unique to Doom (and its derivatives). I also want to add that there is plenty of health on each map and thus aggressive play isn't punished as heavily as in other maps.

@TMS512: I don't know what Skulltag Survival coop is. If you can provide me with some information I _might_ be able to add support depending on how it is implemented.

@Da Werecat: All nitpicking is welcome! I'll add that to the list.

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NaturalTvventy said:

I'm not overly a fan of the gameplay though. The main problem I see is the huge amount of space the player gets to run around in. It's totally style over gameplay. This leads to some generally easy action. Almost always when I found myself in a jam I could just back off and let the monsters come to me, picking them off as they trickle in.


I loved the open spaces in this wad and the sense of scale felt realistic. Plus variation in the gameplay between map1-2 for instance. Map1 felt like the pacing was building up, then map2 kept the action at a steady level for the most part. I didn't find many secrets in my run. I'll have to play map3 a bit more, I started dying there more often.

I suppose there are a few places where I could intentionally bottleneck the monsters and let them kill each other, but I don't play like that so I didn't particularly notice.

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Guest

My life's goal is to make a map good enough that it causes Tango to quite mapping. Coz you know it's a good map if Tango quits. :P

Tango, you make great maps. Now shush. :)

But for now, enough outta me. I'm off to play this. Looks really good. dew mentioned it being in erik alm's style, and I totally agree, just looking at the screenshots.

Good stuff skillsaw.

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skillsaw said:

I don't know what Skulltag Survival coop is. If you can provide me with some information I _might_ be able to add support depending on how it is implemented.

Survival is coop with lives, if everyone dies, the map gets reset. Aside from that, it's no different than plain coop.

On MAP01, linedef 4289 does not get triggered.

On MAP02, as I said, I was spawned in a tiny room and was unable to escape. My friend only described the breakage as not being able to get past the room the red key opened, from the looks of it, that means that linedef tag 10 didn't get triggered.

We stopped playing there, so sorry that I don't have anything on MAP03 and up. If you would like, I can set up a server sometime soon and you can see it for yourself.

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@DeathevokatioN: Dude, did NaturalTvventy kick sand in your face as a child or something? It's one thing to disagree with his opinion and say likewise (a la Dew, though on that note I don't think NT is missing any points or being contradictory at all), but throwing in a completely random insult toward said someone's wad (twice) in the process is childish and bitchy. It's exactly this sort of stuff that's shitting up the thread, not the people who are (rightfully) calling you out on it. :/

See? Now you're making me contribute, too. :P

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tm512 said:

Survival is coop with lives, if everyone dies, the map gets reset. Aside from that, it's no different than plain coop.

On MAP01, linedef 4289 does not get triggered.

On MAP02, as I said, I was spawned in a tiny room and was unable to escape. My friend only described the breakage as not being able to get past the room the red key opened, from the looks of it, that means that linedef tag 10 didn't get triggered.

We stopped playing there, so sorry that I don't have anything on MAP03 and up. If you would like, I can set up a server sometime soon and you can see it for yourself.


There appears to be some kind of issue with voodoo doll scripts and Skulltag. I don't know if there is any possible fix for this.

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