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PinkLion

Questions about Doom 2 maps

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Posted (edited)

In your opinion, what made the maps in Doom 2 so successful?

 

Was it the colours, perhaps how the levels were laid out? I’m trying to get a good insight towards how Doom 2 was created and the opinions of the community

 

Furthermore, what do you think makes a really unsuccessful doom map? What are things the creators should have completely avoided?

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15 minutes ago, PinkLion said:

In your opinion, what made the maps in Doom 2 so successful?

Nothing, they weren't successful. They're somewhat bland and ugly with unfun gameplay, outside of the first few levels (and 2 or 3 at the end). They don't even utilize the added monsters very well.

They should have avoided the whole "abstract" design philosophy they tried, and double avoided maps like The Factory and Downtown.

 

The only success they achieved was in the form of nostalgia from people who played Doom 2 as their first doom game.

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To me, Doom 2 was successful because it was so experimental, and because they amped up the surreal/abstract aspect in keeping with the idea that the demons had somehow "brought their own reality with them." Every map feels unique, and the combination of visceral combat in the foreground with the sense of reality being consumed in the background is really fantastic. There's nothing else like it. They did really well with the whole "abstract" design philosophy, as well as wide-open exploration maps like The Factory and Downtown. Also, they utilized the new monsters (and weapon) very well.

 

Of course, they also did a very good job with the more realistic feel of Doom 1. The engine lends itself well to a lot of different styles.

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1 minute ago, Not Jabba said:

To me, Doom 2 was successful because it was so experimental

No it was succesful because it was the sequel to DooM.
The things you point out didn't make Doom 2 succesful,they made Doom 2 a great game.

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I think it's mainly the fact that many areas in Doom 2 maps don't have a clear purpose. I mean, they might contain bonus items and stuff, but it's not like the levels really need these locations. And yet they are there. So the design is very unpredictable, there is no clear logic and a lot of mystery in everything. So many maps can be finished without visiting like a third or even a half of the level. This is pretty rare nowadays, usually mappers want you to see everything they've spent their time on.

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Posted (edited)

Don't know what made Doom 2 successful other than it being the sequel of DooM and then it didn't try to reinvent the wheel and just added new levels, monsters and weapons on top of Doom's gameplay. It is effectively "Doom but better" in my opinion( or "Doom but with new guns and monsters" if you want a less bias take on it).

 

As for what caused the community to grow and stay as strong as it is today? I think it's because just how moddable Doom 2 is compared to Doom. Doom maybe more popular but even some of its biggest fans prefer to map for Doom 2 if the sheer amount of Doom 2 wads are anything to go by.

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33 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

Let's not make this yet another "Doom 2 sucks!!" thread

Funny you say that since every time somebody mentions Doom 2 it seems to turn into another "Doom 2 is the greatest game ever made" circlejerk thread, just like this one already has.

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8 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

As for what caused the community to grow and stay as strong as it is today? I think it's because just how moddable Doom 2 is compared to Doom. Doom maybe more popular but even some of its biggest fans prefer to map for Doom 2 if the sheer amount of Doom 2 wads are anything to go by.

 

Interesting, what are the best modded maps available for Doom 2?

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20 minutes ago, PinkLion said:

Interesting, what are the best modded maps available for Doom 2?


Modified IWAD maps you speak of?

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, PinkLion said:

 

Interesting, what are the best modded maps available for Doom 2?

 

12 minutes ago, Glaice said:


Modified IWAD maps you speak of?

 

I believe my word choice was poor. By moddable, I meant how easy it is to create all kinds of PWADs for the game. @PinkLion My personal favorite is Empyrion and I thought ZDCMP2 was pretty awesome. Revilution is pretty good too.

 

Though I haven't played these myself, these seem to be what's the most popular. I think this is the closest you'll come to "best" as that term is subjective.

Sunder, Scythe 2, Valiant, Memento Mori, BTSX (and my mind went blank.)

 

I don't think you'll get modified IWAD maps.

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1 hour ago, PinkLion said:

Furthermore, what do you think makes a really unsuccessful doom map?

 

I'll answer this question first :v .

 

Well first of all, confusing design is one of the first things one should avoid, along with poor enemy placement, overusing traps, damaging floors, terrible platforming, an enemy (type), and poor use of lightning. If the map is frustrating, drags on and doesn't provide any satisfaction once finished then it's not a good map. It may or may not also end up looking beautiful but were talking about a game here, prettiness doesn't help if everything else simply sucks, just like a cover doesn't make a good music album for instance, if what lies withing is nothing more than soulless and uninspired "art" with untalented "musicians" .

 

1 hour ago, PinkLion said:

In your opinion, what made the maps in Doom 2 so successful?

 

Well that's a bit difficult to say. From my own POV and experience it's primarily due to the shift to more gameplay-centered design rather than realism which allows creativity and imagination to flow more freely. The greatly expanded bestiary has also likely fueled its success. While Doom was great on its own, its main issue is that it quickly becomes boring and even tiring due to its lack of enemy variety. The very welcomed addition of the SSG was also a game changer. In short, still Doom, but greatly expanded and trying new ideas. Whether they were good or not varies from person to person, an addition I myself don't like (or, rather, didn't like due to the very poor execution of the idea in Doom 2) is the Icon of Sin boss fights, still, for me it was overall a change for the better. Had Doom 2 sticked to the formula of the original more and brought very little new things to the table large amounts of custom user made content would've probably looked very different.

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10 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

Sunder, Scythe 2, Valiant, Memento Mori, BTSX (and my mind went blank.)

 

Sunlust! Bauhaus! Stardate20x7!

 

Hmm, now I'm out of ideas.

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50 minutes ago, bonnie said:

Funny you say that since every time somebody mentions Doom 2 it seems to turn into another "Doom 2 is the greatest game ever made" circlejerk thread, just like this one already has.

 

Unfortunately that statement is demonstrably untrue. The fact that every discussion on Doom 1 vs. Doom 2 boils down to semi-flame-wars indicates that there is no Doom 2 circlejerk (although a significant portion of these forums prefers Doom 2).

 

With that said, I'll share my thoughts as a person who considers Doom 1 to be a far superior game to Doom 2. Doom 2's maps were successful due to both experimentation and refinement. The gameplay sections of Doom 2 are more interesting than Doom 1, and Doom 2's gimmicks are only rivaled by Doom 1 E3. However, Doom 2 falls short since none of these two aspects were well-executed. Most maps attempt mixing gimmicks and interesting gameplay, but end up with a poor mishmash of both. Doom 1 succeeds in this regard since the tools were limited and demanded focus on one aspect primarily. This resulted in better introduction/weapon progression (E1), better build-up (E2), better gimmicks (E3), and harder maps (E4). Effectively, Doom 2 struggles since the potential of the bestiary and mechanics could not be explored during the limited development time.

 

In this vein, Doom 2's maps are successful because of the ideas presented. Better mapmakers use the tools and ideas in Doom 2 as a foundation to improve upon. Final Doom is an excellent example. TNT is a WAD inspired by the gimmicks of Doom 2, and Plutonia is a WAD inspired by the gameplay. Both do the respective ideas better than Doom 2 (although this is the only way TNT can be considered 'better' than Doom 2 according to me). Doom 2's toolkit is versatile and Doom 2's maps are inspirational. I was disappointed by the immense amounts of missed potential in Doom 2 but it did serve as the second step towards realizing the full depth of the game.

 

So yeah, I think Doom 2 is interesting but not great. Thankfully, people improved the things it did to make modern Doom both interesting and great.

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the progression of Gotcha is just pure Doom 2 to me. 

🎶 it makes no sense and doesn't try, then you fall through a hole in the floor to the sky 🎶

 

imagine a serious mapper putting aside the Craftsmanship and Balanced Placement and Intuitiveness and making something as cool as gotcha

if you like doom 2 check out jim flynn (RIP) and bob carter's insane maps they make me cackle with laughter and confusion

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Posted (edited)

I'm probably one of the few people on here who prefers the original Doom over Doom II.

 

I think Doom 2 was successful because not only is it more Doom, but the levels are bigger and more bolder in addition to the super shotgun and added baddies. Except for the Pain Elemental who spews Lost Souls which is a shared annoyance across all Doom games.

Edited by Ex Oblivione

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Posted (edited)

Doom 2's levels are many times based on special gimmicks.

As someone who likes Doom 1 a bit more than Doom 2, I often think that the gimmicks are not one of my favourite things.

But they actually give personality to the levels they are in and that is what makes Doom 2 stand out (that matters a lot).

 

In my opinion, I find the first levels of Doom 2 (up until O of Destruction) to be really fun and action packed. They are levels that I can gladly replay many times, just like E1.

Then, the levels I love, are the city levels. Especially Downtown, which I believe to be the most unique level in Doom 2 (seriously, they made a town in Doom, ignoring the limitations at the time and it actually resembles a town - tall buildings with different uses, even dark alleys and a sense of freedom), though the Factory is a level I also enjoy.

About the latter levels, I find some of them to be average and others to be good (the Chasm is one I like maybe the most from later levels).

 

Now, for what makes maps bad, I can respond with an example. Barrels o Fun...

Yes it has a gimmick of running from barrels and I like the idea, but it is poorly executed, because it can only be found at the beginning and the rest of the level sucks or is boring as hell.

Too many Pain Elementals, that you won't expect the first time playing, long range chaingunners that were placed in the dark iirc (it is always annoying when that happens), few and bland textures and a boring ass Mastermind fight.

 

Generally, about things that make Doom levels bad, I say incorrect monster placement (too many examples to mention, but I will just say that the geometry of a level is heavily intertwined with monster placement, so the level is both fun and playable, if you nail the monster placement), ammo starvation, when it is not challenging, but annoying, strobe lighting (for the love of God, don't use flickering 255 lights, especially the 1hZ ones, because it feels like it damages the eye - it is horrible) and ugly design (like, make it as basic as you want and I am ok with it, but at least align the textures properly and don't place textures that are in contrast, together - it wouldn't be nice to have 50 shades of Startan without any cohesion).

Edited by ShotgunDemolition

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From what I think I know, Doom 2 was released in  stores before Doom1 (retail version of Doom was ultimate Doom) , which was a mail order, so doom 2 the full game was accessible to more customers, while most players of doom 1 only had the free shareware episode 1 (which many thought to be the whole game according to Romero). 

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44 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

the Chasm is one I like maybe the most from later levels

 

Heretic, how do you like that horrible level lol

It's Abandoned Mines and Living End for me.

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1 hour ago, Glaice said:

 

Heretic, how do you like that horrible level lol

It's Abandoned Mines and Living End for me.

 

Well, I am not sure either. Though if I could guess, it would probably be the big open areas with platforming and Cacos (I would be lying if I said I don't like those), plus the diversity in each room you enter (it feels like many irrelevant small pieces that unite to make the cohesive whole and I love that contrast).

Also, I find it funny when you have to balance on those paper thin platforms, while fighting (it always makes my day).

 

Abandoned Mines is also pretty cool and the Living End had its moments (especially the Cyberdemon at the end), but I felt like it dragged on a bit (I don't remember it much, since I haven't played it in at least 2 years, so it would be better if I replayed it, before writing an opinion).

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Posted (edited)

Seems like DoomII touched a nerve with its chaotic nature which is the very feat I like about it - it was badass and "didn't give a fuck"... love it or leave it.

If all this was on purpose... -I highly doubt- but nonetheless it delivered quite the punch at the time it was released.

 

The map design will always be frowned upon by the "theoretical master mappers warped back to 1994"-crowd but besides some salty cucumbers it was pretty solid(for that time frame) and the worlds created seemed "cosmically contrived" in an amusing manner... plus there are also some neat visuals to be found too.

 

Compared to Doom the levels felt quite different - more erratic, more bombastic, more "3D", more hostile... DoomII as a whole felt pretty tough and menacing as the predecessors scifi/bible belt touch had somewhat faded. It was just a gory zoo... and that's why the "on earth" spin seems a little bit more tangible than just a sales slogan... it was a nice pun on this crusty prison in overdrive.

 

The strongest maps, in order of "perceived awe", were

Tier01 ... Map02 to Map06(oh gee), Map11, Map17, Map19, Map20, Map22, Map26, Map27, Map29

Tier02 ... Map01, Map07, Map08, Map10, Map13, Map14, Map15, Map18

Tier03 ... Map09, Map12, Map16, Map21, Map23, Map28

Tier04 ... Map24, Map25    

Tier X ... Map30, Map31, Map32

 

...with Map30 being X-Files in a good way and Map31-32 being "a hoot" for its time BUT in hindsight there could have been a really cool Wolfenstein inspired map addon(more than two maps) which maybe fit DoomII's architectural standard... a secret worth discovering.

 

In contrast Doom's Ep01 mapset was legendary - talent + right place + right time.

It also fit together and the only maps that, in their own way, may be regarded as vaguely similar in "tightness" were Map02 through -06 to me.

All others, with a few exceptions, had some kind of "let's get this done" syndrome, where one could easily imagine

 

-Romero slacking off before catching steam

-Peterson being bombarded with halfassed Map-stubs that need to be finished even if it means his death

-McGee's blooming talent but not havng the impact it deserves on the final mapset

 

Who knows, maybe there's some info on this contrived scenario in MastersOfDoom...?

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, PinkLion said:

In your opinion, what made the maps in Doom 2 so successful?

Although you've asked about the maps, I'd venture to say that the success of DooM2 was largely because of the new weapon (SSG) and the expanded bestiary. The arch-vile alone, was worth the price of admission.

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On 26/03/2018 at 12:30 AM, ReX said:

Although you've asked about the maps, I'd venture to say that the success of DooM2 was largely because of the new weapon (SSG) and the expanded bestiary. The arch-vile alone, was worth the price of admission.

 

This is actually REALLY helpful information, thanks a bunch :D

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