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StevenC21

What's your Opinion on Linux?

Linux Opinions.  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your opinion on Linux?

    • Only pure Open-Source Distros.
      9
    • Ehh, Linux is Linux, it's all good.
      21
    • I prefer Windows.
      39
    • I'm a Mac Heathen.
      5


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I honestly don't even know how to unravel that. The kernel absolutely has access to the internet, else your Android apps themselves would be incapable of connecting to it. There's a number of reasons wget might have failed for you, kernel capabilities ain't one.

 

If we're bringing up anecdotes anyway, I regularly run Debian under a chroot on Android and it has no problems at all with internet access.

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Then how Android apps connect to the internet? I am assuming Google disabled Internet access on the kernel to avoid serious security issues.

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The kernel needs internet access if any applications are expected to access the internet. Android isn't special, and access is not disabled in the kernel at all.

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Posted (edited)

Cacodemon345's arguments (maybe, unwillingly, or unknowingly) emphasize just how flexible Linux really is. It can obviously handle a large variety of shells and program bundles, which is a huge strength of Linux. It is within this realm where the "look and feel" is created.

 

Most people that attack Linux are really attacking a particular shell and/or software bundle, without realizing that many of the other devices they love are also running Linux.

 

Strangely enough, the strength of Windows is that the shell is always Explorer, and the bundle stays relatively intact from version to version, making it easy to learn.

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Posted (edited)

Linux (on PC, not talking about Android here) certainly has it's uses but I can't be arsed with it because I always feel like it's actively getting in my way of doing things. Always some hoop you have to jump through. Fuck that. I can see how programmers would like it. But for anyone who doesn't delve into that it's nonsense. Plus the artwork programs for Linux (like Blender and Gimp) are vastly inferior to what you can get on Windows.

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I think the real and actual reason why Linux isn't popular is it's lack of proper support for other languages.

 

It's never going to change, sadly...

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2 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

I think the real and actual reason why Linux isn't popular is it's lack of proper support for other languages.

 

I don't think that is the problem.

Like I said before, I believe for any modern operating system to be successful the GUI needs to be front and center of it, not some tacked on part that may or may not be supported by software through some libraries that may or may not be installed.

 

In both Windows and Mac there is some OS provided API for the standard GUI. It has been like that for over 25 years.

Compared to that overall design Linux seems to be stuck in a time loop. After all this time the GUI still doesn't feel like a natural part of things, without using the terminal it still feels like trying to operate some amputated system.

 

Take software development as just one example: On Windows the default is Visual Studio - a powerful GUI based tool. On Mac the default is XCode - also a powerful GUI based tool. But on Linux the default is an Autotools script - something that was developed some 40 years ago and what it presents to the user is a mess of incoherent files that have "Do not look at me" written all over them. Yes, sure. Some software is starting to replace it with CMake - but that may get some raised eyebrows from people who are deeply entrenched into the "way to do things."

And it's this mindset that is clearly showing in many parts of Linux - and if it persists, it all will feel very, very hostile to modern computer users which were born after command line interfaces stopped being the primary mode to control a computer.

 

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I think Linux's software needs a lot of languages available to make more people use Linux.

 

A lot of people use Windows with a different language, which explains the reason why Linux isn't really popular.

 

But I do agree with you.

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4 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

I think the real and actual reason why Linux isn't popular is it's lack of proper support for other languages. 

My first impression was programming languages, which is dumb, but reading further context, I think you mean translations for user interface? Linux not only pioneered multi-lingual UIs, but it continues to have excellent support. Even anecdotally, I know someone in the Netherlands that will never use Windows in Dutch because the translation is so bad, but he's more than happy to run his Linux desktop entirely in Dutch.

 

4 hours ago, Jerry.C said:

Like I said before, I believe for any modern operating system to be successful the GUI needs to be front and center of it, not some tacked on part that may or may not be supported by software through some libraries that may or may not be installed. 

I'm not sure what is or isn't tacked on, but I heard the same argument in the Windows 95/98 days about how it was just "tacked onto" DOS. It's a dumb argument either way. Also mind how versatile Linux is and much of that is owed to how portable Linux (the kernel) is and how it's able to fit to many kinds of devices and services. There is zero reason, for example, to run a GUI on a server, so you simply don't need to have it installed. That's fine.

 

4 hours ago, Jerry.C said:

Take software development as just one example: On Windows the default is Visual Studio - a powerful GUI based tool. On Mac the default is XCode - also a powerful GUI based tool.

Linux has Eclipse, NetBeans, Visual Studio Code, Code::Blocks, KDevelop, GNOME Builder, and quite a few more IDEs available.

 

4 hours ago, Jerry.C said:

But on Linux the default is an Autotools script - something that was developed some 40 years ago

Autotools is a build system, not an IDE. and it was started only as early as 1990 (it really evolved into proper projects around 1994 after forming around ad-hoc scripts being used by multiple projects). IDEs can (and do) provide graphical tools to interact with it.

 

4 hours ago, Jerry.C said:

Yes, sure. Some software is starting to replace it with CMake

CMake is awful and worse IMO, in many ways, than Autotools. But again neither are related to a GUI IDE.

 

4 hours ago, Jerry.C said:

And it's this mindset that is clearly showing in many parts of Linux - and if it persists, it all will feel very, very hostile to modern computer users which were born after command line interfaces stopped being the primary mode to control a computer. 

I have a few people in my family who are quite happy running Ubuntu that don't know what a terminal is.

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46 minutes ago, chungy said:

CMake is awful and worse IMO, in many ways, than Autotools. But again neither are related to a GUI IDE.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who dislikes CMake and prefers Autotools...

 

4 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

I think Linux's software needs a lot of languages available to make more people use Linux.

languages.jpg.223b900ace639eeae95e686df506fd0e.jpg

 

Yeah, dang that lack of languages...

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Posted (edited)

Yawn. I see we are back to the beginning with some people saying that Linux has certain problems and then thr Linux users coming out of their holes

1 hour ago, chungy said:

I'm not sure what is or isn't tacked on, but I heard the same argument in the Windows 95/98 days about how it was just "tacked onto" DOS. It's a dumb argument either way. Also mind how versatile Linux is and much of that is owed to how portable Linux (the kernel) is and how it's able to fit to many kinds of devices and services. There is zero reason, for example, to run a GUI on a server, so you simply don't need to have it installed. That's fine.

 

Versatility doesn't matter. When comparing Linux as a desktop system to Windows and macOS all those other components and the capability to run it as a server do not matter. All that matters is whether it all provides a seamless experience. And sorry, Linux does not. I mainly use a Mac at work and never or at most very rarely have to dig out the terminal to do some stuff.

On Linux it seems to be impossible to use the computer in any advanced fashion without launching a terminal. No matter what, some software always comes along that only exists as a command line tool.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Autotools is a build system, not an IDE. and it was started only as early as 1990 (it really evolved into proper projects around 1994 after forming around ad-hoc scripts being used by multiple projects). IDEs can (and do) provide graphical tools to interact with it.

 

So? I can't say because developing Linux software is not my job. I occasionally have to compile some stuff but that's it.

 

 

Quote

 

CMake is awful and worse IMO, in many ways, than Autotools. But again neither are related to a GUI IDE.

 

CMake has two major advantages over autotools:

 

1) It runs on all operating systems.

2) It can create project files for both Visual Studio and XCode.

 

Yes, the scripting language itself is bad, I won't deny that. But the overall tool kicks autotools in the butt ten times over. You want proof for that? You actually do not even have to leave the Doom community for that. There's at least two of the major ports that use CMake exclusively as their cross-platform build system, that's 3DGE and GZDoom. I doubt you can do that with autotools.

 

 

Quote

 

I have a few people in my family who are quite happy running Ubuntu that don't know what a terminal is.

 

Good for them if all they need is some standard software. I guess my brother who mainly uses his computer for surfing the internet won't have any issues either, but he doesn't really use his computer for anything more advanced.

 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Jerry.C said:

Versatility doesn't matter. When comparing Linux as a desktop system to Windows and macOS all those other components and the capability to run it as a server do not matter. All that matters is whether it all provides a seamless experience. And sorry, Linux does not. I mainly use a Mac at work and never or at most very rarely have to dig out the terminal to do some stuff.

There seems to be a very fundamental disconnect here. Linux doesn't have a display server built into the kernel, but so what? Plenty of desktops like GNOME and KDE provide the seamless experience on top of it (using either the X or Wayland display servers, but that's an implementation detail).

 

53 minutes ago, Jerry.C said:

On Linux it seems to be impossible to use the computer in any advanced fashion without launching a terminal. No matter what, some software always comes along that only exists as a command line tool.

What counts as an advanced fashion? I know there's plenty of cases on Windows or Mac where you can't get a job done without pulling out the terminal either. (And honestly, the #1 reason I ever hear people advocating Mac is that "it has a command line too now!")

 

53 minutes ago, Jerry.C said:

So? I can't say because developing Linux software is not my job. I occasionally have to compile some stuff but that's it.

So... you don't need to use the terminal if you don't have to. Wasn't that your original gripe?

 

53 minutes ago, Jerry.C said:

CMake has two major advantages over autotools:

 

1) It runs on all operating systems. 

2) It can create project files for both Visual Studio and XCode.

1) is true of autotools as well, and the second isn't a significant enough advantage, imo, to bother with cmake's atrocious language and toolset. If curious, there is no simple equivalent to "./configure --help" -- I've been told of an equivalent (and long) command to put forth to cmake sometimes but it seems easier to just open up CMakeLists.txt and try to figure it out.

 

53 minutes ago, Jerry.C said:

But the overall tool kicks autotools in the butt ten times over. You want proof for that? You actually do not even have to leave the Doom community for that. There's at least two of the major ports that use CMake exclusively as their cross-platform build system, that's 3DGE and GZDoom. I doubt you can do that with autotools.

I honestly have no clue what the point being made here is... that two projects use CMake? That's not really news, and quite easy to accomplish with autotools as well (and plenty of Doom source ports and software do use it successfully: Chocolate Doom, Prboom-Plus, DeuTex...)

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8 hours ago, chungy said:

My first impression was programming languages, which is dumb, but reading further context, I think you mean translations for user interface? Linux not only pioneered multi-lingual UIs, but it continues to have excellent support. Even anecdotally, I know someone in the Netherlands that will never use Windows in Dutch because the translation is so bad, but he's more than happy to run his Linux desktop entirely in Dutch.

Some people (including me) believe that Linux's software is useless for people who are non-English-Speakers.

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1 hour ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Some people (including me) believe that Linux's software is useless for people who are non-English-Speakers.

Belief is irrelevant to cold, hard facts. The most common languages in the world (eg: Spansih, French, German, Italian, Russian. Japanese, Chinese...) get professionally-paid translators by the likes of IBM and Novell to get complete coverage. Smaller languages are iffier.

 

I don't know what your native tongue is, but to say it's useless in all cases just because it might be a lesser target... is a bit silly.

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So, I'm thinking again about using Linux. But I want the next distributive:

1) It must be a stable (after update it mustn't fall);

2) Must be an easy;

3) Must completely replace Windows;

4) And support many drivers.

I know only one distributive that meets requirements - Linux Mint. 

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I would recommend Ubuntu over Linux Mint any day 😛

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1 minute ago, chungy said:

I would recommend Ubuntu over Linux Mint any day 😛

I used Ubuntu, but it wasn't stable after update and install another GUI (KDE). 

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I only have a small bit of experience with Linux on a PC. I installed Ubuntu many years ago (10.10, I believe) just to test the waters. The idea was to have the dual boot option, where I could use Linux in some cases, and Windows 7 in others. There were a couple of issues with that idea however. Back then, I didn't have a SSD, so booting wasn't as convenient as it is now--it was easier just to stay in one of the two operating systems (Windows, mainly). Second, many of my preferred editing applications were not compatible (Sony Vegas, Photoshop, Reason and Ableton Live). Third, there weren't any available drivers for my sound card (one of Creative's gaming-oriented X-Fi models from the time). I basically removed it after a I ended up accidentally blowing away a bunch of system menus and I couldn't figure out how to get them back.. Not exactly a great user experience (granted, I was a complete newbie, but still..).

 

I do intend on getting my feet wet with it again as it would certainly help for work (for instance, I have Kali Linux installed on a spare machine for work purposes, but haven't done a single thing with it yet other than stare at the desktop). I am lazy though.

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I started in Linux with Ubuntu, but never managed to feel at home with the Unity desktop. Then tried Mint for a while, found it very user-friendly but after a few months the update system stopped working properly. Have since discovered MX and LXLE, both of which seem well designed, reliable and easy to handle. Still only use them out of curiosity and as a bit of a distraction though, and doubt whether they could ever replace Windows for many purposes.

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On 5/5/2018 at 1:02 PM, Jerry.C said:

Even lowly third party developers manage to create something better.

And the latest example is this, where a third-party managed to patch a security issue without messing up networking. Even third-parties manage to do something better than Microsoft.

 

DirectDraw is also one of the examples where Microsoft didn't care and instead went on to make driver developers abandon support for it with their new WDDM display driver model. Other people managed to retain DirectDraw support.

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I did try Ubuntu one time, when I read [H]ard|OCP's review on Windows Vista being, IIRC, a very unstable OS, at the time. It was good, but not having to use compatible software... it just didn't feel the same. I did manage to learn how to use the GIMP, which most people struggle using because of the interface, which would give my life a huge advantage later on.

 

By the time Vista SP1 came out, I had a new motherboard, and I ditched Ubuntu. Never had any problems with SP1. Call me crazy or an eccentric fool, but I didn't even bother upgrading to Windows 7! I guess I'm just damn lucky.

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Week ago I've installed on my old PC "Slitaz". I tried many distres for old PC: Puppy Linux, Tiny Core Linux, Slax, Lubuntu, Damn Small Linux. But only Slitaz was great for that because another distres worked so slow and always slowed down (although, Tiny Core and Damn Small Linux were so fast but were difficult in install on HDD). It works great, although sometimes slows down too, but there's no problems. So I'm very glad that I've installed Slitaz.

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So, I have another (one?) opinion on Linux.

 

I was forced to move back to Windows after I found it to have issues with MIDI. WINE's MIDI didn't work properly (no music at all.) And then the lack of native games and with higher requirements for those AAA games released on it was another reason. Plus the fact that the lack of proper Windows-only game support in WINE was another reason for it. I would have stayed with it for longer if it had VSTi software, but there's none, sadly. The fact that you have to enter a password everytime you need to install software through package managers is annoying. The fact that pretty much literally FUCKING everything open-source you download from the internet requires compilation, unless if it provides .deb packages.

I also have to say that the speed of Linux Distro releases make it hard to keep with it. I would rather upgrade my computer at will if I'm obligated to do so, rather than seeing repos pulled out for the lack of support and having forced to update Linux.

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Linux user now for 20 years, although I spent around 4 years recently using a Mac laptop as my main machine, I've been back on Linux exclusively since last Christmas.

 

Settled on Debian very early on (Potato, around 2000 ish) and stuck with it.

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5 hours ago, Jon said:

Settled on Debian very early on

If Slackware ever goes the way of the dodo (god I hope not...), I'd probably go with Debian.  Or Arch.

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1 minute ago, StevenC21 said:

I understand that it is very important to some people. 

This is kind of an understatement, but yeah.  Depends how its current funding crisis plays out, I guess.

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Yeah it looks like its not going to play out super well. But I hope that it doesn't die.

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I prefer Windows but im probably gonna switch to Linux after Windows 7 kicks the bucket since Windows 10 and its 1000 hour forced updates that killed any concept of productivity made me hate it forever.

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