Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
ETTiNGRiNDER

[Heretic, vanilla/chocolate] Tyrant's Tomb (beta release)

Recommended Posts

ETTiNGRiNDER, thanks for vanilla Heretic map! Like other your maps - this one also I liked, the map itself and some new textures are good.

Gameplay on skill 4: as before, your strategy is to complicate the life of the player - to deprive him of ammo and artifacts, well... I personally never realized why the maps authors are so worried about complexity and are trying to reach it in this way. In Heretic I need my weapons, ammo and artifacts, I need this all at once to destroy these bastards monsters from all sides, this is a game, not a sniper school. Many times I read how the people say that in Heretic is bad: that monsters drop ammo, that Mage drop tome, Lich drop egg, etc, - all this breaks them (the map authors) - balance. When the Mage gives me a book - I'm smiling, I understand, that game engine is trying to help me, I take this book and beat these monsters on your map, I'm happy as a child at this moment! I do not understand why it's bad - it's good, I'm playing a Heretic game! But when I do not have ammo, because I missed a couple of times and did not hit, there are no artifacts - it's a sadly gameplay... Balance on the map is always important, but not through player limit strategy, this is just my opinion, I understand, that many Heretic guys will disagree with me.

A few small moments that I noticed on this map:
- secret area with chaos device contain 2 secret sectors (2in1 secrets);
- some wall torches far from walls;
- areas near green key very dark;
- firemace does not appear on its spots on skill-4,5 if map started for the first time. Possible try changing things quantity in steps of about 5-10 (any things: monsters, ammo, lights, decorations, etc). It would be good if map P_Random allowed to appear firemace on any skill levels if map start for the first time. Also, there are very few ammo for firemace, why?

I'm not sure, that this my demo records in vanilla format will be interest to someone, but I recorded them for myself, in attachment: first attempt, speed (skill4,5), pacifist, max (skill4), nomonsters. I would be glad to see any demos in vanilla format for this map from other Heretic guys!

ETTiNGRiNDER, you made another good map, I played some interesting hours on it, thanks!
 

Tyrant-PVS.zip

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, PVS said:

- firemace does not appear on its spots on skill-4,5 if map started for the first time. 

In vanilla Heretic, the Firemace always has a 75% chance of spawning. Like a lot of things in the Raven games, this was done Because Reasons.

 

I agree that the map feels a bit ammo starved (which is something that a lot of Heretic pwad creators do, perhaps also Because Reasons). I don't think having to Gauntlet all those melee golem ghosts actually made the map harder, just more tedious, and I would personally advocate for just putting some more Crossbow and Claw ammo on the map. Combat was generally frontal, and some more Disciples and other tougher enemies might have improved it from a challenge/gameplay variety standpoint, but it's a pretty nice map overall, and the textures are great!

Share this post


Link to post

For whatever reason it sends me an error everytime I want to decompress the file, could you upload it in .zip or .rar? 

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, Not Jabba said:

and I would personally advocate for just putting some more Crossbow and Claw ammo on the map.

or he could just put more time bombs and a few tomes ;)

Share this post


Link to post

This was an awesome map!!!!

An idea I had Ettin, was a puzzle where you have nothing but the Necromancer's Gauntlets and a Tome of Power or three. Fight ghost monsters. ;)

Share this post


Link to post

Turned out I had an specific program for 7z files in my laptop, oops... Anyway, played the map on skill 4 with Chocolate Doom, I liked the overall light variation, not seeing the monsters from a certain distance in pitch darkness made me approach them in a more conservative way, but still I could go close enough for some face to face action, as far as Heretic goes this wasn't so tricky. The spacious areas coupled with lots of guys made for easy infighting, reason why I never had issues with ammo, apart from using the gauntlets frequently. No deaths, almost a max except for one secret and maybe a few items in it, the item count in the tally was complete thanks to the many books I got from disciples. The texturing and detailing was all pretty neat. One only personal criticism: when you get the blue key you have to backtrack to the start of the map, although it's a short way, nothing else happens (no monsters released), so a teleporter that opens near the placement of the key would avoid it. Overall, it was fun, thanks for sharing it!

Share this post


Link to post
23 hours ago, Not Jabba said:
On 3 мая 2018 г. at 8:59 AM, PVS said:

- firemace does not appear on its spots on skill-4,5 if map started for the first time.

In vanilla Heretic, the Firemace always has a 75% chance of spawning. Like a lot of things in the Raven games, this was done Because Reasons.

Of course, but if you working in editor over your map - you can control some points from this "75% chance" for firemace in one constant for game engine situation - when map started for the first time. Further need a more deeper technical conversation, which will be a problem for my bad English, but if you're interested - I can try. In any case, you will need to spend your time to test this moments and see it yourself, not relying solely on someone's words.

If I work on my map and add firemace - I want the player to get it, this can be easy controlled by changing the number of things on the map, this will change the overall map random factor. When map is almost finished I always check that firemace appear on all skill levels (easy, medium, hard) when map started. When player dies, press space and reborn - this is other situation and it is impossible to control map random factor in this case.

For this "Tyrant's Tomb" map I add around 10 wall torches and firemace began always normally appear on skill-4,5 when map started for the first time, as well as on easy and medium skills. In any case, this is not a very important moment, but only a small technical question, and of course, I'm talking only about original game and fully vanilla compatible engines in this case.

I see, that ETTiNGRiNDER have some small optimizations for the cooperative mode on this map. I'm ready to test this on Chocolate Heretic 2.3.0 if someone makes me a company. Also, we can record some vanilla coop demos, this is my personal interest :)
 

Share this post


Link to post

If you have to deal with rng monster/item spawns just add redundant items/mobs, that way you can be way more sure that at least 1 will spawn :D

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/3/2018 at 2:59 AM, PVS said:

Gameplay on skill 4: as before, your strategy is to complicate the life of the player - to deprive him of ammo and artifacts, well... I personally never realized why the maps authors are so worried about complexity and are trying to reach it in this way. In Heretic I need my weapons, ammo and artifacts, I need this all at once to destroy these bastards monsters from all sides, this is a game, not a sniper school. Many times I read how the people say that in Heretic is bad: that monsters drop ammo, that Mage drop tome, Lich drop egg, etc, - all this breaks them (the map authors) - balance. When the Mage gives me a book - I'm smiling, I understand, that game engine is trying to help me, I take this book and beat these monsters on your map, I'm happy as a child at this moment! I do not understand why it's bad - it's good, I'm playing a Heretic game! But when I do not have ammo, because I missed a couple of times and did not hit, there are no artifacts - it's a sadly gameplay... Balance on the map is always important, but not through player limit strategy, this is just my opinion, I understand, that many Heretic guys will disagree with me.

It's the old conundrum of dealing with the "hard is default" vs. "hard is hard" camps when it comes to dealing with skill levels (and whether there's any point in implementing them at all).  It's designed more with the "hard is hard" philosophy and the assumption that it's going to be played by crazy Doomgods who are probably better at the game then I am, so it twists the thumbscrews some.  I'm willing to hear specific suggestions of things that could be tweaked but if you want easier... try easier setting. ;)  There's some expectation that you'll infight the monsters and make smart weapon use (i.e. not crossbow against ghosts if you can help it).

 

On 5/3/2018 at 2:59 AM, PVS said:

- firemace does not appear on its spots on skill-4,5 if map started for the first time. Possible try changing things quantity in steps of about 5-10 (any things: monsters, ammo, lights, decorations, etc). It would be good if map P_Random allowed to appear firemace on any skill levels if map start for the first time. Also, there are very few ammo for firemace, why?

There's not a lot of firemace ammo because you're not guaranteed to get it and I didn't want it to swing the situation too much.  Think of it as a lucky bonus you can take advantage of like the aforementioned Tomes/Ova from monster drops.  The placement there is also probably somewhat of a relic of the notion that it would be part of an episode.  I was unaware that you could game the PRNG to make sure it appears, though.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 2:59 AM, PVS said:

- secret area with chaos device contain 2 secret sectors (2in1 secrets);
- some wall torches far from walls;

Noted to fix.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 2:59 AM, PVS said:

- areas near green key very dark;

It's meant to be gloomy, but not blind.  You mentioned using Doomsday so I wouldn't be surprised if this is a case of GL rendering screwing the intended light levels.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 2:59 AM, PVS said:

I'm not sure, that this my demo records in vanilla format will be interest to someone, but I recorded them for myself, in attachment: first attempt, speed (skill4,5), pacifist, max (skill4), nomonsters. I would be glad to see any demos in vanilla format for this map from other Heretic guys!

Thanks for the demos!  I took some time to watch them and it was pretty entertaining.  I particularly liked how you rushed to the wings in order to use them in clearing the rest of the map in the max run.  Made me glad to have included an extra pair even though the thought behind that was only to give an extra chance at them if the player didn't figure out their intended use right away (though I like to think it was obvious).  Also I did not know that trick of getting the timebombs to spawn on a ledge above you, will have to remember that one.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 7:03 PM, Not Jabba said:

I agree that the map feels a bit ammo starved (which is something that a lot of Heretic pwad creators do, perhaps also Because Reasons). I don't think having to Gauntlet all those melee golem ghosts actually made the map harder, just more tedious, and I would personally advocate for just putting some more Crossbow and Claw ammo on the map.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 7:37 PM, SOSU said:

or he could just put more time bombs and a few tomes ;)

More bombs / claw orbs, maybe.  I think there should be plenty for the crossbow if you're not slinging a lot of it at the ghosts or wasting the quivers on partial pickups.  I also wonder if anyone tried the easy setting, where the dragon claw and hellstaff can be collected earlier--maybe it makes for a better layout in general?

 

On 5/3/2018 at 7:03 PM, Not Jabba said:

Combat was generally frontal, and some more Disciples and other tougher enemies might have improved it from a challenge/gameplay variety standpoint

I could try working in more Disciples and/or a lich or two more, I suppose.

 

13 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

One only personal criticism: when you get the blue key you have to backtrack to the start of the map, although it's a short way, nothing else happens (no monsters released), so a teleporter that opens near the placement of the key would avoid it.

It takes like 5 seconds?  Or you could use the Chaos Device if you still had it.  I could potentially retool things to make the blue key loop drop you closer to where it's used, though it'd require rearranging some areas.  Adding a teleporter seems like a lame solution.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:32 AM, ShadesMaster said:

An idea I had Ettin, was a puzzle where you have nothing but the Necromancer's Gauntlets and a Tome of Power or three. Fight ghost monsters. ;)

Sounds kind of like a secret level gimmick.

 

13 hours ago, PVS said:

I see, that ETTiNGRiNDER have some small optimizations for the cooperative mode on this map. I'm ready to test this on Chocolate Heretic 2.3.0 if someone makes me a company. Also, we can record some vanilla coop demos, this is my personal interest :)

I'm sure I flagged a thing or two for multiplayer but I don't make any guarantee of those settings being sensible or viable, I didn't really review them.  But if you do try it, let me know how it works out.

 

Anyway thanks for the feedback all.  I'll probably do a somewhat revised version sometime soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

It takes like 5 seconds?  Or you could use the Chaos Device if you still had it.  I could potentially retool things to make the blue key loop drop you closer to where it's used, though it'd require rearranging some areas.  Adding a teleporter seems like a lame solution.

 

Fair enough, I did not remember the chaos device at all, it's one of those items I rarely ever find a situation to use. Regardless, the backtrack is so short, I don't know why I complained. My bad. 

 

Here's a pacifist: tyrant_01pacifist.zip

 

Chocolate Doom's demo recording is limited, a TAASM-max (UV) takes longer than that limit unfortunately. I could record one in ZDoom if you use that port. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

galileo31dos01, all original Heretic demo recording limits (128Kb limit, multi-levels, dies, etc.) have been expanded in Chocolate Heretic 2.3.0 (2016) and higher, need add -demoextend command line parameter, example:
chocolate-heretic -file Tyrant.wad -warp 1 1 -skill 4 -record MyDemo -demoextend

Thanks for pacifist demo: your time 2:11.11, this is magic, because I have exactly the same time in one of my demos! What Chocolate  Heretic version did you use here?
 

Edited by PVS

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for explaining me that! I have 2.3.0, but since it's not my usual port of choice there's some stuff I lack knowledge. 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×