Female Protagonist in the new Doom movie?

[an_mutt]

3 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

That is an objectively wrong statement and is of a mindset that is causing no end of controversy in modern media between companies and fans of their media.

 

The politics of the matter are none of my concern but the simple dismissal of the fact that people care about "breaches" (for lack of a better term) of artistic integrity is one of the most out of touch things you've said and is the mindset of corps that are causing controversies such as this.

 

Just because you aren't part of that crowd doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I did a poor job of expressing the main point I wanted to make in my last post (and people I like are telling me off elsewhere for being an angry dipshit on the Internet), so let's try this again.

 

When I say "nobody gives a shit about the artistic integrity of a franchise/piece of media", I specifically mean that people who complain about topics like the one we're currently in don't care about the artistic integrity of the media/entertainment they consume, until that piece of media makes a production choice that goes against their own internalised canonicity of what that piece of media is. A very low number of people will be watching a Marvel/DC movie, or the next Doom movie, with the intention of exploring the artistic landscapes of these movies afterwards. There will probably never be a written/video essay produced that discusses, say, the socio-economic topic of the Marvel cinematic universe, or the colonial or environmental aspects of the upcoming Doom movie. And that's because these pieces of media aren't being made for artistic exploration, but because they're made by companies that want to pry the money from your wallet. The 'artistic integrity' of a product rarely comes up as a topic for discussion, until fans of a product are informed that it isn't being made 100% as they want it - of course, you'd look like a crying moron if you say "This movie isn't being made exactly how I want it!", so instead these people dress up their concerns as an anxiety over 'artistic integrity' and to make it sound more important than it actually is.

 

So, basically, nobody gives a shit about any given internalised canonical opinion, except for whoever internalised that opinion in the first place, along whoever happens to share that opinion. But these same people are very eager to tell you that you should be concerned about the violation of 'artistic integrity' that is occurring when Doomguy is suddenly Doomgal, or when some random comic book character who will barely effect the plot of the movie they are in is played by a black/BAME actor, which is why I'm happy enough to tell these people that nobody gives a shit about (their perceived notion of) the 'artistic integrity' of the thing they like.

 

Another thing in Impie's post that sat completely off with me was his assertion that this corruption of "artistic integrity" is just as much the fault of left-wing political ideology as it is the Capitalist drive to garner as much attention and profit from every human being that they possibly can, and that the only people not at fault for recent mainstream media trends is the most voluminous and frequent consumers of these pieces of media - i.e. young white males. As if production companies don't purposefully do these things, knowing that angry dipshits on the Internet will do a significant amount of the advertisement of their schlock for them, such as RIGHT NOW WITH THIS VERY THREAD. And like when Impie reminded me about comic book movies doing it too. I'm, like, roughly 99% certain that I would not have known anything about this Doom movie, or Ghostbusters 2016, or who Nick Fury even is, had pissed off assholes on Youtube not have found their way into my recommendations feed to inform me via their screaming mugs in their video thumbnails, with their all-caps titles, that FEMINISM/MARXISM IS DESTROYING ARTISTIC INTEGRITY*. And Impie has - along with this random bullshit about The Left suddenly being to blame - the nerve to try and enforce the idea that left-leaning people are hypocritical and just as prone to being outraged when a white actor is cast in a role previously defined by a non-white actor. I don't know about anybody else, but I recall the most recently significant example of this (Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell) being met almost uniformly with exasperation and "why am I not surprised at the latest bullshit from Hollywood". Versus the fucking cataclysm of anger at just the trailer (a bad trailer, admittedly) for Ghostbusters 2016. But nah, it's the outrage of the left we have to always be aware of. These companies would not follow these practices if it brought them less attention and made them less money than they otherwise would have made, except they can rely on people like Impie and the thread's OP to do their work for them. Is it their fault that they get played like this? No. They just want to enjoy the media they consume. Is it the fault of left-wing ideology that identity politics has been completely commodified by Capital practice? No. I am completely fucked off, however, when the assertion is made that The Left and identity politics itself is as equally culpable for the modern day decay of mainstream cinema as a production company's prioritising of profit above actual artistic integrity.

[bemused]

I really dont understand much of this thread, if you dont agree with the way a story is portrayed, dont pay to watch it. It really is that simple, regardless of your political stance.

[Adahn]

I think it's more to do with the fact that people on the right don't like seeing certain groups of people in their films, tv shows, games, Etc. And they complain when movies are made diverse. Which is why there is a lot of political fighting going on... to be honest I kind of see where an_mutt is coming from, I mean people's reaction here was pretty extraordinary, the article didnt even explicitly say anything about a female doomguy, just that the lead would be female... 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Jthom : Text

[mrthejoshmon]

That's a much more reasonable response.

 

I'd say that you have a point about the care for the overall lore in the universe in most cases, however I feel the views on "artistic integrity" at play here are less than the expanded universe but more towards keeping the core themes, characters and visual styles of the base mater franchise the same and untampered with (even if unfounded, for now).

 

Less the overall "artistic vision" like the deeper scope of the universe it takes place in, but more towards the literal visual art such as the base premises of Hell and demons, the design of the main character and the basic traits of the character.

 

On those basic points alone a lot of the criticism directed at the original Doom movie is found, it's weird because it's less "artistic integrity" of the people behind the media but more about the "artistic integrity" of the media being altered (so maybe "artistic integrity" is not the correct term).

 

As for the politics, I don't have an investment in any of it, not my topic.

[scalliano]

1 hour ago, Jthom said:

I think it's more to do with the fact that people on the right don't like seeing certain groups of people in their films, tv shows, games, Etc. And they complain when movies are made diverse.

This is a sweeping generalization which does not sit well with me. As a centre-left libertarian (last time I checked), I too would take issue with a character who is explicitly portrayed as the Doom Marine being female. I am all for a female lead in a Doom movie, even an awesome ass-kicking character, so long as she is her own character and not just a cynical checkbox-ticking genderflip. Hell, base the movie around Crash. That would be ace.

 

Diversity is not the issue here - the issue is corporations screwing around with established works and alienating existing fans in a misguided attempt to appeal to groups of people who were never going to be interested anyway. As stated earlier in the thread, a female Doctor has basis in canon (we'd already had the "Mistress" by the time the new Doctor was announced), and as I said before, I'm a huge Alien fan. If Fox was to announce a reboot of the franchise with a lead character called Lt. Alan Ripley, I would lose my shit.

 

@Cafffeine Freak: Perhaps "capitalize" wasn't the right word, but the movie's director in particular definitely tried to deflect any and all criticism and dismiss it as nothing more than misogyny. Kind of like the way the gaming press threw the community under the bus during Gamergate, branding us all as alt-right homophobic trans-panic woman-haters rather than take a good look at how they conducted their business.

Edited May 2, 2018 by scalliano

[Liberation]

2 hours ago, Jthom said:

I think it's more to do with the fact that people on the right don't like seeing certain groups of people in their films, tv shows, games, Etc. And they complain when movies are made diverse. Which is why there is a lot of political fighting going on...  

 

Most people that are right wing leaning (people that vote conservative in the UK for example) couldn't give a toss about that sort of thing, your talking about the extremes.

 

2 hours ago, an_mutt said:

 

 I am completely fucked off, however, when the assertion is made that The Left and identity politics itself is as equally culpable for the modern day decay of mainstream cinema as a production company's prioritising of profit above actual artistic integrity.

 

People class the 2 together, saying that the left are pushing identity politics on everyone etc etc,

 

However this (as in your) view point is correct and is what I've been trying to say, it not politics its about money.

 

People need get over right/left venomous bullshit and accept the facts. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Liberation

[geo]

On 4/29/2018 at 2:19 PM, Jerry.C said:

Wait, what?

 

People actually care about a Doom movie?

 

No matter what they try, it will surely suck - like nearly every single movie based on a game out there.

No they're just bored enough to talk on a forum about whatever topic is the hottest.

 

Once they have a female protagonist, people or Fox specifically may realize Doom = Aliens. Imps = Xenomorphs. Doomguy = Ripley.

[Halfblind]

I for one don't mind a female main character just as long as it is based upon a different story than the one we all know and love. Maybe she can be the Doomguy's daughter or something. Amy Manson has been cast as the main character to which I was a great fan of her work on Once Upon A Time when she played Merida from Brave. I would love to see her more TV and movies even if it is a new Doom one.

[Grain of Salt]

Quick advice to impie, mrjoshman, and some other idiots.

 

Don't cry directly onto your keyboard.

[SGS Man]

@an_mutt Just wanted to chime in. I have to disagree with some of your points. A simple YouTube search for 'Marvel Video Essays' gives you hours of content discussing the successes and failings of the MCU and Comics in general. There is even a brilliant seven-part video essay series by Lindsay Ellis (Formerly 'The Nostalgia Chick' from Channel Awesome) that analyzes the Transformers films and makes a strong argument as to why Michael Bay is a good example of an auteur. The quality of all these essays aside, the fact remains that a lot of individuals have attempted to decipher why these movies are so successful and the formulas behind them.

 

Just because you deem these films as 'the lowest rung of art' (which I kinda agree with), it doesn't absolve them of all of their artistic merit, artistic exploration, and artistic integrity.

 

Furthermore, the companies behind all these projects are just the modern equivalent of patronage. They are larger and may have more control than the patrons of the past, but even then there are clear visions and styles for every director and actor funded by them. Michael Bay, Zack Snyder, Josh Wheaton, the Russo Brothers and all the other members of that ilk still impart their own flair and nuances to each movie they direct. But yes, money plays a significant role in art, but when has it not? All of the 'classics' of the past have survived primarily due to the money poured into them during and after the creator's lifetime. We only remember the 'classics' because a lot of money and/or controversy was used to lengthen their lives. Their inherent quality is rather questionable, even if they are consistently 'good'. Plus, most mainstream stuff in any medium is mediocre and has been for ages.

 

I'll even suggest that there's more artistic exploration now than ever before given the sheer number of media available to experiment with (books, film, TV, games, animation, comics, the internet, etc.) and the increased accessibility of funding (from indie to companies).

 

Finally, people do care about their favorite characters. They do care a lot. Change the race or gender of a popular character and there will be a lot of backlash, irrespective of the 'relevance' to the plot or not. The Marvel movies have succeeded in large part due to their rather formulaic characters. And billions of dollars have poured in because of that. Change any of that now and there will be a dent in profits. Doom isn't that popular now, so taking a risk for the movie is viable.

 

Simply put, no one cares about how artistic something is. All they care about is if they enjoy it. They aren't duped or tricked or played, they just don't give a shit about 'artistic integrity'.

 

As for the politics, yeah nope.

[Lila Feuer]

10 hours ago, KVELLER said:

@an_mutt I won't discuss whether you're right or wrong, but I think you could've made the same point without insulting anyone.

Agreeing to disagree on the internet now is hard.
 

2 hours ago, scalliano said:

Diversity is not the issue here - the issue is corporations screwing around with established works and alienating existing fans in a misguided attempt to appeal to groups of people who were never going to be interested anyway.

 

God you nailed it. It just leads to threads like these where certain members of the public show their true colors, when no one asked for their shitty opinions in the first place.
 

1 hour ago, Grain of Salt said:

Quick advice to impie, mrjoshman, and some other idiots.

 

Don't cry directly onto your keyboard.

You've proven every chance you get you do plenty of that already.

[vinnie245]

The Doomslayer keeps their helmet on through the whole movie until the end where you find out its Daisy!

Those rabbits have quite a temper.

 

[Tompig]

The manual clearly states that YOU are the doomed space marine... ergo, I guess DoomGuy has a %50 of being female.

 

 

As long as they are demons from hell this time and it's not resident evil in space I'm happy.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Depending on how the studio works the plot, a female lead certainly has potential. If it's based on Doom (2016), then I could see the protagonist being Olivia Pierce and the film possibly exploring her degrading mental state as a result of her central nervous system brace/enhancement/thingy and eventually bringing her to join with the leader of Hell and into conflict with Samuel Hayden.

We could also possibly see Hayden's expedition into Hell to recover the Doom Slayer as the failsafe he/she/shklee was intended to be in the event Pierce did something rash, or hear about it through a third party, and explore the ramifications therein.

Finally, at the end of the film, I imagine we see the first Lazarus Waves and finally the opening of the Slayer's sarcophagus, which leads into the story/events of Doom (2016).

Just a thought off the top of my head, though.

[leodoom85]

5 hours ago, bemused said:

I really dont understand much of this thread, if you dont agree with the way a story is portrayed, dont pay to watch it. It really is that simple, regardless of your political stance.

I think I'm totally agree with you because of how this thing is advancing.....besides, your avatar makes an accurate depiction of what's happening here...

[Arctangent]

4 hours ago, scalliano said:

Kind of like the way the gaming press threw the community under the bus during Gamergate, branding us all as alt-right homophobic trans-panic woman-haters rather than take a good look at how they conducted their business.

I mean in all fairness, this was and still is mostly true. Hell, it's probably only grown more true due to the repercussions of Gamergate. If you only frequent a handful of gaming communities, you'll only see vileness of the community leak in on occasion, but explore a lot of them and you'll find it absolutely rampant.

 

It really isn't a sweeping generalization so much as just the truth of the matter. The gaming community is a hellhole with pockets of pleasantness that aren't even breach-free.

[Caffeine Freak]

5 hours ago, scalliano said:

@Cafffeine Freak: Perhaps "capitalize" wasn't the right word, but the movie's director in particular definitely tried to deflect any and all criticism and dismiss it as nothing more than misogyny. Kind of like the way the gaming press threw the community under the bus during Gamergate, branding us all as alt-right homophobic trans-panic woman-haters rather than take a good look at how they conducted their business.

 

I completely agree, and I know exactly what you're talking about. And honestly, I don't think studio execs really give a shit about identity politics the way directors and writers do, they just pander to that crowd if they believe it will boost ticket sales. Whether that's a successful business tactic is highly questionable. 

 

EDIT: I'd also like to add that it's kind of surreal to see the people involved in controversial projects like these react the way the Ghostbusters director did (branding the fans as sexist) when they encounter backlash. Even if you think it's true, isn't it kind of dumb to castigate the very fanbase that make up a portion of the audience who will see your movie/buy your game?

Edited May 3, 2018 by Caffeine Freak

[CARRiON]

This thread sucks. Much like the new DOOM movie will regardless of what's between the protagonist's legs.

[Doomkid]

This thread and nearly every reply therein gave me cancer.

 

Hopefully the female actress will have something to do with an Olivia Pierce storyline, that'd be cool.

 

Some of you really should learn to not be reactionary ass-clowns, primarily for your own benefit.

[notjimmyboigreez]

On 29/04/2018 at 2:43 PM, Eris Falling said:

radical suggestion but I could see a Doom movie working better if Doomguy isn't the main protagonist, there's no character there for that to really work in a film context. I like the idea of Doomguy instead being a mystery - it's neither man or woman, black or white, gay or straight etc etc, and no one knows what's really under that helmet. Then you could have more normal central characters as protagonists and if they're female or black then whatever, who cares. Doomguy would still of course have to be a very important character in the story, but it's better left without forcing a character into someone that has none imo.

 

doom marine has always been a white guy.

 

you never seen hard boiled? the main character doesn't need to have oscar worthy content in each scene  

 

hardcore henry?

[Tristan]

no

 

if what doomguy is is never actually shown in the film, he can be the whitest guy you can possibly imagine if that's what you want.

[Man of Doom]

just how the shit did we go from “oh look another doom movie” to “oh noes a doomgirl is in the movie and will therefore suck because es-jay-dubbulewes” and other political bs

 

EDIT: Seriously guys, we don’t even have the faintest idea of the goddamn plot or if it even has anything to do with established Doom canon from ANY of the games. Calm the fuck down. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Man of Doom

[Koko Ricky]

It's pretty telling how quick some are to go to shallow political talking points. Not everything is a leftist conspiracy.

[Crunchynut44]

Nothing explicitly says that there will be a female playing the roll of doom guy, but doom guy is meant to be a huge muscular imposing tank of a human being capable of taking on the denizens of hell. I don't care who's offended but there is no female who can fit a role like that, hell there aren't many males that can fit that role. Though it's been said it makes sense that doomguy isn't the central character and the movie is very open to a female lead in that respect.

[Arctangent]

5 hours ago, Crunchynut44 said:

but doom guy is meant to be a huge muscular imposing tank of a human being capable of taking on the denizens of hell.

Nowhere has it ever been established that the Doom guy's anything more than buff. Hell, if you go off the view height in the classic Doom games, he's actually several inches shorter than your typical UAC soldier, even the mook-y ones that got turned into zombiemen.

[Doomkid]

17 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

Nowhere has it ever been established that the Doom guy's anything more than buff

You're a marine, one of Earth's toughest

[Arctangent]

2 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

 

 

"tough" is something quantifiable in a lot of ways. Given that Doomguy grits his teeth, dies before episode 2, and yet still continues tearing Hell asunder, I'd say he's the toughest person from Earth through sheer determination alone, even if there were other marines or even civilians that were outright stronger.

 

And heck, even in terms of physical strength, you always have the short, yet stocky folks who can easily overpower anyone taller who hasn't also put as much effort into their strength. For all we know, Doomguy could be 5'1".

[Memfis]

14 hours ago, Grain of Salt said:

Quick advice to impie, mrjoshman, and some other idiots.

 

Don't cry directly onto your keyboard.

Can you for once actually write some thoughts and arguments instead of just calling people idiots? Because it doesn't help.

[seed]

Looks like a tornado hit this topic, what the hell happened on this page lol.

 

Eh, it was interesting while it lasted.

[scalliano]

17 hours ago, Arctangent said:

I mean in all fairness, this was and still is mostly true. Hell, it's probably only grown more true due to the repercussions of Gamergate. If you only frequent a handful of gaming communities, you'll only see vileness of the community leak in on occasion, but explore a lot of them and you'll find it absolutely rampant.

 

It really isn't a sweeping generalization so much as just the truth of the matter. The gaming community is a hellhole with pockets of pleasantness that aren't even breach-free.

That isn't the gaming community, that's the internet in general. The sweeping generalization that I was referring to was the assertion that people on the right are inherently prejudiced and don't like seeing diversity in their media.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but the notion pushed by the anti-GG side that I, by default, am a racist, sexist, homophobic neo-liberal, basement-dwelling shitlord simply by virtue of identifying as a gamer is not one that I am willing to bow my head and take like a scolded puppy. I am sure as hell gonna defend myself in light of such allegations. When it came to GG, the shit was flying in both directions, but nobody gave gamers a platform at the UN.

 

Is there toxicity on the internet? Of course. Thing is, most people are reasonable, but as I learned on my first day of school, it only takes one or two arseholes to ruin your day.

 

#ActuallyHardlyAny