Less considered aspects of the characters

[Quasar]

Some food for thoughts:

 

The Doom Slayer

• His main character flaw is that he allowed himself to be blatantly manipulated. He is so absorbed into his righteous quest against Hell that he'll take any opportunity or excuse to bring a fight against the demons, despite his obvious intelligence in other actions he takes and the thought he puts into some of them. If he was really from Argent D'Nur and witnessed its fall first hand, he would surely have to know what the Crucible was - indeed, he himself knows without having been told that it can free the souls of the Wraiths from their enslavement in the Well by using it as a knife. He just doesn't seem concerned with the fact that Hayden is lying about it - when Hayden up and says Olivia must have been after the Crucible, note that there's zero evidence anywhere else for this assertion. He just comes up with this out of thin air.
• He will not harm a human being, even if their actions are evil and will immediately advance Hell's cause. He twice has an opportunity to kill Olivia with a clean, quick shot, and both times he instead waits to see what she's going to do, the first time letting her give a little speech before jumping into the Argent energy stream - an event which opens a Hell portal on Mars, which as a champion against the dark realm, you'd think he'd rather prevent - EXCEPT for the all-important fact that this lets him get back to Hell, and that's what he really prefers over everything else, as mentioned above. In the end, he waits while the totally dejected, disarmed Olivia has been transformed into the Spider Mastermind. Now that she's a demon, and demons being what he hates, he totally destroys her without a second thought - but only after that transformation is complete.

 

Olivia

• We're supposed to hate her because she's the "bad guy", the villain, but she is actually the most tragic and sympathetic character in the story. Her body and mind have both been corrupted by Hell to the point that she is arguably insane and is in constant physical torment. All this for a job she didn't originally want, until *somebody* sent her a mysterious artifact that somehow instantly changed her mind (more on that in a moment...)

 

Samuel Hayden

• We're supposed to look at him like some kind of goodly father figure, and he himself tries to portray himself as some kind of generous benefactor of humanity. All this while he orchestrates and oversees - with full knowledge, by his own admission - everything Olivia and the rest of the UAC is doing. He's not unaware of the human sacrifices, or the Lazarus demon projects - he has tacitly approved of them. He may even be involved in some of them personally - his office is full of artifacts from Hell, including a tablet that shows a picture of the Crucible, which he clearly knows much more about than he ever lets on - acting as though he just figured it out from the Doom Slayer's vision on approaching the Helix Stone (how the hell did he see this, anyways?), meanwhile he knows where it's stored (in the Titan's Realm) and can activate its sword functionality.
• He is a master manipulator. Not just with the Doom Slayer, either - if you read into his backstory, it was him who first offered Olivia the job on Mars, and it was him who sent her the mysterious Argent Fracture relic that seems to have had some kind of effect on her to change her mind completely about her desire to work there. VEGA was not immune either, going through with Hayden's plan to have himself destroyed but, at the last, expressing to the dear Doctor that he has "many regrets." If you ask me, and it's a long shot, but one I can't quit coming back to in the end, I think there's a good chance that Hayden deliberately engineered the entire catastrophe on Mars and has been playing the long game toward it for a very long time. Whatever his motivation - to gain political or corporate power, prestige as a "hero", or perhaps even literal godhood through the dark magic and artifacts he keeps acquiring and making use of - the end result is that he's the only survivor and makes off with a toy he wanted very badly. He pretends to have suffered so much loss, but so much of it was of his own design.
• He's a wicked man in the end. In Doom VFR, he terminates Dr. Peters' machine mind after the latter succeeds in shutting down a Hell portal. What was Hayden trying to do with the portal? Watch him coldly walk through Hell to the tomb in the Kadingir Sanctum while his Elite squadron is slowly wiped out. He doesn't give a shit about those guys; he only brought them along to spare himself from needing to kill so many demons and make his own job easier - they're disposable to him.

[Caffeine Freak]

I have to admit I'm rather puzzled by some of your interpretations here. I'll address the biggest ones.

 

Regarding the Doomslayer, I see little evidence that he 'knows' about the Crucible or how it can be used to power down the well before he is told so. He's sent to Argent D'Nur with those basic instructions, and the rest he seems to figure out piece by piece, like many other things he does. When he uses the crucible as a blade, he first walks up to each of the three Argent energy points, looks up at where the energy is directed, pieces it together in his mind, and then uses the crucible in the way that seems most obvious to him---stabbing at the energy sphere right in front of him. Given his aggressive mindset (slamming buttons, punching open boxes and upgrade drones, etc.) this seems the most likely thing he would do. None of this suggests that he knew about the crucible beforehand or how it could be used before someone told him. 

 

Olivia was physically ill long before being sent to Mars, if my memory serves correctly. This is the reason for the implanted braces in her body, nothing to do with hell corrupting her. And while it's conceivable that she may have been 'normal' in some sense at one point, the constant evidence we see in the Doom universe is that hell gradually corrupts everything it touches, and the closer the proximity someone is, the more corrupt they become. Olivia is a willing participant in the hell invasion the same way everyone else who had knowledge of it was. I hardly see how her developing an obsession with something makes her a sympathetic character or a victim in the slightest, except to her own twisted desires.

 

Personally, it's never once crossed my mind to see Hayden as some sort of father figure, or to even necessarily see him as an objectively good character. I always saw him as a character who clearly had his own motivations that he preferred to conceal, (which were probably questionable in many ways) but who shared a common interest with the Doomslayer in shutting down the hell invasion, even if it wasn't for the same reason. To me, it was always clear this was why he was helping you, but beyond that, his motives were somewhat murky and suspect at times.

 

As for the possibility of all of the invasion being some grand conspiracy Hayden was working towards, I can't conceive of that being possible even if he was the coldest, most selfish character imaginable. The cost of sacrificing the entire base, so much technology, VEGA, every single UAC member, so many artifacts... all so he could gain power, or look good in the public eye? How? And what for? If you read the back story in the game, you realize that the UAC controls the flow of Argent energy back to earth (which has been spared of an energy crisis because of this), and Hayden himself is in charge of the release of energy from Mars to Earth. Given these facts, Hayden is already the most powerful 'human being' ever to have existed in the history of mankind---he literally controls the switch that sustains all of human civilization and prevents it from collapsing. How is the destruction of the UAC base going to grant him more power, and what would he need that for anyway?

 

Even the crucible itself wouldn't be worth that price. It essentially gives him a path to rebuild everything, but why would he willingly sacrifice the entire base just so he could start from scratch?

[Quasar]

To address a couple points there:

Presumably, the Crucible was used to originally forge the Well by Daeg Grav; I'd assume it was the weapon that slayed the Wraiths in the first place. It is depicted in artworks from Argent D'Nur (in particular, some statues of the Night Sentinels are depicted wielding it, and their primary function was to both guard and protect from the Wraiths). As the one who "wore the crown of the Night Sentinels," it'd be bizarre for the Doom Slayer to have no knowledge of this artifact. It's literally the object that set his current quest in motion.

 

Olivia's sickness developed after she took the job on Mars and was exposed to Argent energy - "A few months after arriving at the Argent Facility, Olivia was diagnosed with acute idiopathic scoliosis." Note that idiopathic specifically means "of unknown cause," or in other words the doctors couldn't figure out what caused it. This parallels Samuel's development of cancer while working on the tower.

 

As for Hayden, it's mostly interpretation so I won't further argue it, other than to say power's end is usually to obtain more power. I think that Hayden might envision creating a new Well himself that he can fully control, without the demons being in his way. That's just my best guess though and I'm ready to be proven wrong at any time if they develop his character further. What or whom he would have to kill to create the new Well is also a disturbing question - the original was created by slaying creatures that were revered as gods, after all.

[Caffeine Freak]

Fair point about the Doomslayer and the Crucible. I don't remember the specific details of that part of the back story, I guess.

 

Regarding Olivia, I'm still not convinced she developed cancer as a result of working with Argent energy. If both her and Samuel became sick from Argent energy, it would stand to reason that masses of people all over the base would develop cancer from the same culprit, and that's one thing I never remember reading about anywhere in the game. 

 

Again, Olivia changing her mind about staying on Mars likely has to do with her falling strongly under the same corrupting influence that affects everyone one the base. I don't see how this makes her a sympathetic character, especially when she has prior knowledge of the invasion that others do not. 

 

I'll say one other thing about Hayden: while his intentions are morally questionable, to me, it seems more likely that his mindset is simply 'x is costly and will require human lives, but this is for the greater good', as opposed to some deeply narcissistic megalomaniacal motivation. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Caffeine Freak

[Touchdown]

I might be a simple man but I personally wouldn't go that far with this. My interpretation is pretty straightforward:

 

Regarding Hayden, I don't know if it's because of his personality alone, being a consciousness in a robotic body or both but I've never really seen him as a villian, like some people do. I think he's actually doing what he's doing in the name of greater good. As horrible as the means are, UAC did solve the energy crisis. I certainly do not think he had some fundamentally malicious intent, he's just detached enough to focus on benefits for the mankind instead of bothering with morality that would hold the progress back. I don't believe in progress at all cost but Hayden certainly does.

 

I also think Hayden is not affected by the Hell's corruption because he's not a human being anymore. Unlike Olivia who tried to bring about the end for her own reasons.

 

(a side note: it might be just an easter egg but I wonder if the Soul Cube that Olivia has in her private stash is the artifact the Hayden has sent to her)

 

Doomguy on the other hand is a mystery. It's implied that he was the leader of the Night Sentinels and perhaps he was also the Betrayer who wanted demons to bring back his dead son. He went on a rampage against Hell in retaliation after being betrayed himself. Like Hayden said, he thinks that the only way is to kill them all. But I find it weird that he's quick to destroy the production of Argent Energy but has no problems using demonic runes to make himself more powerful.

 

I do like that moment when he backs up Vega though. Maybe Vega will return as a talking companion in DOOM5.

 

9 hours ago, Quasar said:

• when Hayden up and says Olivia must have been after the Crucible, note that there's zero evidence anywhere else for this assertion. He just comes up with this out of thin air.

 

Didn't he say that because the Helix Stone has the Slayers mark on it? He assumed that Doomguy might be able to get some answers from it because of that. And he did. Then, I don't know, they scanned his brain during the vision or something and could pinpoint the location of the Crucible.

[Quasar]

50 minutes ago, Touchdown said:

Regarding Hayden, I don't know if it's because of his personality alone, being a consciousness in a robotic body or both but I've never really seen him as a villian, like some people do. I think he's actually doing what he's doing in the name of greater good. As horrible as the means are, UAC did solve the energy crisis. I certainly do not think he had some fundamentally malicious intent, he's just detached enough to focus on benefits for the mankind instead of bothering with morality that would hold the progress back. I don't believe in progress at all cost but Hayden certainly does.

Perhaps; I do entertain the possibility that that's all there is to him. I just can't help the feeling that he might secretly be much worse than he seems on the surface. You assume he isn't affected by Hell, but, what if he is, and he's just better at hiding it than Olivia? He does still have an organic brain after all.

 

Interesting idea about the Soul Cube by the way. If that were true, it would seem to imply that the Argent Fracture is somehow connected (transdimensional nonsense, maybe?) to the Hell Hole that was sealed in Doom 3. I like it.

 

59 minutes ago, Touchdown said:

Didn't he say that because the Helix Stone has the Slayers mark on it? He assumed that Doomguy might be able to get some answers from it because of that. And he did. Then, I don't know, they scanned his brain during the vision or something and could pinpoint the location of the Crucible.

That's true, but it doesn't explain to me why Olivia would be after the Crucible - that detail feels like it was invented by Hayden as justification for why the Doom Slayer should go get that particular item, bringing it conveniently within his reach. I don't see that she would have any personal use for it, unless Hell intended to establish another Well in the dimension of which this Mars is a part.

[Touchdown]

For some reason I've always assumed it's like Soul Cube in DOOM3 - Olivia is interested in it because it can be used to stop the invasion so she wants to prevent that. Not sure if that makes sense though because it's already guarded in Hell.

 

But to be perfectly honest, a lot of stuff in the DOOM4 lore feels like a bunch of disconnected ideas and it's hard to make sense of it. The whole cult thing has always been weird to me, the Advocates and such. The entire Doomguy backstory raises so many questions that it feels like there's no point in even trying to figure it out. They can literally take it anywhere because it's so loose.

 

Then again, don't get me wrong. I've always been interested in the backstory in DOOM, especially DOOM3 so I definitely approve of such discussions. It's just that with DOOM4... there's lore for so many things, for every aspect of the gameworld but none of those topics are properly explored.

 

On 1.05.2018 at 2:28 PM, Quasar said:

Interesting idea about the Soul Cube by the way. If that were true, it would seem to imply that the Argent Fracture is somehow connected (transdimensional nonsense, maybe?) to the Hell Hole that was sealed in Doom 3. I like it.

 

It's always hard to say what is a mere reference and what is canon. A lot of people like the idea that DOOM4 is actually a sequel to all other games in the franchise so they just assume it's all evidence. But I'm not sure. I mean you can find a Hydralisk in WarCraft III but it seems more like a reference than a prove that it's all in the same universe.

 

But there's more to that too. I think I posted it in the easter egg thread that on one of the Hell reliefs you can see a guy with a cube in hand fighting demons - like the Martian Hero from DOOM3.

 

I gotta say though, I hope they don't end up supporting the 'all DOOM games are connected' theory. I'm afraid they'd have to say it's all multiverse and multiverse is something I generally do not approve of. It's a cheap tool to fill the plotholes. I mean sure, the "oh it's because of multiverse!" twist is effective the first time around but it basically throws everything into chaos. Because if there's multiverse, pretty much anything can be "explained". But who am I to judge, people like it so I'm sure we'll see more clues for that down the road.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Resisting the urge to say that Doom Slayer didn't kill Olivia when he had the chance was all because of the Rule of Drama.

 

Please note I haven't played Doom (2016) since March, so I'm a little fuzzy on details.

 

Throughout the game, the Doom Slayer shows more disdain for Samuel Hayden than anyone else. On the other hand, he becomes aware that if he's going to prevent Hell from invading Earth, he must, at least in some capacity, do what Hayden tells him to. As I remember, the Doom Slayer pauses for a moment before smashing the Argent machines in the complex at the base of the Argent Tower, suggesting that he knows Earth needs Argent Power, but ultimately decides it's for the greater good to destroy them. As for his backstory, I note it to be rather ambiguous. Frankly, I believe that the Doom Slayer could be Doomguy from an alternative timeline (Multiverse Hypothesis), but it's ambiguous enough that he could be one of the Wraiths' Sentinels or even the Traitor of Argent D'Nur.

 

Agree wholeheartedly on Olivia. 'Nuff said 'bout that.

 

Samuel Hayden seems to be attempting to salvage a bad situation such that Earth maintains its supply of Argent Energy. It's very possible (quite probable, even) that he really wants to secure his hold over Argent Energy, and with the Tower and all its constituent parts destroyed, this damages his goals. That said, he likely knows that despite the fact that the Doom Slayer is a rogue element, he can't cast him away lest he need him again. Also, it's possible he believed Olivia was attempting to recover the Crucible, given her affiliation with Hell, it's likely she was informed of its importance (though why she's recovering it herself raises lots of questions). As for how he knew, it's probable that some of the artifacts received from Hell detailed what the Crucible did, given they kept detailed records of the Doom Slayer's Roaring Rampage of Revenge through Hell.

 

VEGA is most likely just attempting to put an end to the invasion and he understands the Doom Slayer to be the best shot at that, so he helps him at every possible turn, via upgrading his equipment and granting him vital information on his current task. Even at the end, VEGA continues to help the Doom Slayer shut him down so as to open a portal through which he can reach Argent D'Nur. Most probable, as recognition for VEGA's help, the Slayer saved a backup of his (computational matrix/primary program/brain) for future use or to grant him new life, possibly as redemption or just because it's right.

 

There's my interpretation of the primary cast. Make of it what you will.

[Duke of Pathoris]

On 5/1/2018 at 1:27 PM, Caffeine Freak said:

If you read the back story in the game, you realize that the UAC controls the flow of Argent energy back to earth (which has been spared of an energy crisis because of this), and Hayden himself is in charge of the release of energy from Mars to Earth. Given these facts, Hayden is already the most powerful 'human being' ever to have existed in the history of mankind---he literally controls the switch that sustains all of human civilization and prevents it from collapsing. How is the destruction of the UAC base going to grant him more power, and what would he need that for anyway?

I agree with that. I don't see how the hell invasion would have helped him, it would have only made him lose power. It seems he realised Olivia was a problem but feared her, hence why he wouldn't intervene (she could set demons on him), yet brought the Doom Slayer out, so that he could use Doom Slayer.

[Reaper8888]

On 4/30/2018 at 7:09 PM, Quasar said:

 

• We're supposed to hate her because she's the "bad guy", the villain, but she is actually the most tragic and sympathetic character in the story. Her body and mind have both been corrupted by Hell to the point that she is arguably insane and is in constant physical torment. All this for a job she didn't originally want, until *somebody* sent her a mysterious artifact that somehow instantly changed her mind (more on that in a moment...)

 

 

Perhap's you're right, but it's still necessary to clear the UAC facilities of the damage she has done, thus making her a legitimate antagonist. Besides, you don't actually kill her until after she has transformed into the spider-brain, at which point it would be crazy not to fight back...

[DooM_RO]

Hayden is kind of like Illidan from WC3/WOW, he plays with fire but only because he has to.