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cannonball

Demonic Deviation - 11 Map episode for Doom 2 (R/C)

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Hornet's nests! Hornet's nests everywhere!

 

I'm always super impressed with what you can do with square architecture, these are some great maps right here. Can't wait for a full release.

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Oh, yes, it's a Doom 2 cannonball episode! Does this one play similarly to Hadron? I've been thinking a lot about how the encounters in that series sustain a kind of guerrilla combat across sprawling, open networks, and whether it can be replicated as well in Doom 2 granted full use of its assets. It's perfectly chaotic—honestly the most fun I have with Doom—and it's troubling that almost all the sets I've played that either achieve or tend toward this kind of play are for the original game. Something to do with the lack of an SSG making it difficult for players to stand their ground for too long, maybe, forcing them to pull the herd to another unexplored corner of the layout? Or maybe you've found a way to have this all work out and it's not nearly as difficult as I make it sound.

 

Looking forward to playing this one. I'll try to keep my expectations in check.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Alfonzo said:

Oh, yes, it's a Doom 2 cannonball episode! Does this one play similarly to Hadron? I've been thinking a lot about how the encounters in that series sustain a kind of guerrilla combat across sprawling, open networks, and whether it can be replicated as well in Doom 2 granted full use of its assets. It's perfectly chaotic—honestly the most fun I have with Doom—and it's troubling that almost all the sets I've played that either achieve or tend toward this kind of play are for the original game. Something to do with the lack of an SSG making it difficult for players to stand their ground for too long, maybe, forcing them to pull the herd to another unexplored corner of the layout? Or maybe you've found a way to have this all work out and it's not nearly as difficult as I make it sound.

 

That is what I liked about Hadron the most too. It takes Doom's 'limitations' and teases positives out of them.

 

- No SSG coupled with careful parceling of rockets/plasma means that the horde of meat -- usually cacos and barons -- are going to stay alive for a while. Incidental low-tier threats (imps and shotgunners and souls and such) keep you from safely plinking away at the horde indefinitely. The goal is often to acquire that high-tier ammo while not getting trapped or worn down by attrition. 


- OG Doom mid-tiers are overall a lot more infight-resistant. Cacos are some of the toughest mid-tiers to get involved in most types of infights (those not involving boss monsters, where they can often be easier), because they are elevated on the z-axis. Barons are so tanky that it's impractical to get them to infight anything but those hard-to-infight cacos. When deploying a mix of species in Doom 2, infighting will generally thin the hordes to some extent. 

 

- Lack of viles and pain elementals (and to some extent chaingunners) pushes the gameplay more towards the slow-boiling sustained sort we see in Hadron. Doom 2 'sprawling' setups that involve oppressive 'kill on sight' threats will tend to have a lot more peaks and valleys if they are 'balanced' -- the threat level will be high at first when they are alive, and drop a lot when they are dead.

 

So I think this points at the proper approach for creating similar setups in Doom 2: 

 

- Restrict SSG access, or limit the number of shells for it. 

 

- Use a limited number of mid-tier species in most areas. Variety can be added in spots where the player shouldn't realistically be able to set up infighting as easily -- e.g. dead ends where hordes of monsters can't be safely funneled into, areas with much more platforming and damaging floor and highly awkward terrain.

 

- Viles should supplement the threat, not define it. Being able to flee and hide from them for stretches of time is a plus, as the tension still exists as long as they are alive. Vile turrets that can deny space but aren't really 'that' oppressive can be put to good use, especially when the high-tier ammo calculus is such that the player might actually be better off not killing them. 


- The same goes for PEs. They should be used to distract and complicate the player's handling of other threats, rather than being positioned as a 'kill this first' type of monster with other monsters interfering in some way with that. These don't count to the limit of primary roaming mid-tiers because obviously their infighting is typically hamful. 

 

- Chaingunners offer a good alternative to shotgunners, but shouldn't be overused relative to them. A good ratio is probably 1:3 among 'roaming hitscanners' and 'oppressive snipers'. (Non-oppressive turrets that deny localized pockets of space don't count towards either.) Shotgunners' inconsistent damage output makes them better as 'latent threats' (forcing you to pay attention to what might be roaming around where), and their lower HP allows them to be dispatched a lot more quickly even in packs. So they aren't the attention whores that chaingunners are, thus work better as supplements to the horde. 

 

Edited by rdwpa

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Really liking this so far. Finally figured out that if I can't find a way into a secret, look around for a long-range GR switch. Every author has their own stylistic touches. Currently stuck on MAP07 past the Blue Key door. It looks like there's no way out without the Red Key. Which I don't have. I did an SR up the stairs to reach the Blue Key platform. I'm thinking now that was not your intent. Guess I'll clip out and go get the Red Key.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, EffinghamHuffnagel said:

Really liking this so far. Finally figured out that if I can't find a way into a secret, look around for a long-range GR switch. Every author has their own stylistic touches. Currently stuck on MAP07 past the Blue Key door. It looks like there's no way out without the Red Key. Which I don't have. I did an SR up the stairs to reach the Blue Key platform. I'm thinking now that was not your intent. Guess I'll clip out and go get the Red Key.

 

That was a serious oversight on my behalf to not allow the player to exit that area. One for the fixing list but for now I'd advice anyone playing this to get both keys before proceeding forwards.

Sorry, I think manage I achieve this level of derp-ness on every wad I make, return to hadron had a missing key in one the maps on lower difficulties for instance. :P

 

Speaking of the discussion above, it would be an interesting concept to try and create layouts like the ones I have done in some UDoom maps and applying this to doom 2 with the beastary only being used sparingly alongside the UDoom monsters, kind of like a mix of some classic wads like Memento Mori coupled with the faster playstyle of the likes of Valiant. Alas this wad probably doesn't fit too cleanly into this category. Perhaps this something I could keep in mind for another time.

Edited by cannonball

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So I sat down to try a couple of maps before work and got so caught up in it I almost missed my bus. :o) Currently at the start of map 7 Prison Break and will finish this off after work. Very well done and loads of fun, thank you so much for this. \o/

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Neat maps, especially towards the end. 10 is probably my favorite. And hey, a prison break map that I actually ended up liking, now that's rare.

Recorded some FDAs, attaching below, the current version of the wad is included as well to make life easier for anyone who happens to care, fwiw.

Thanks for sharing this work of yours, cb, will be waiting for more!

ddeve1_dem_FDAs.zip

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10 hours ago, Demonologist said:

Neat maps, especially towards the end. 10 is probably my favorite. And hey, a prison break map that I actually ended up liking, now that's rare.

Recorded some FDAs, attaching below, the current version of the wad is included as well to make life easier for anyone who happens to care, fwiw.

Thanks for sharing this work of yours, cb, will be waiting for more!

ddeve1_dem_FDAs.zip

Great to see some demos for this set. Managed to get up to map09 before having to run some errands and then watch infinity war. I don't know whether I should be disappointed at the lack of danger you were in throughout (know I was never intending to make this set too difficult I guesss). Still these demos have given me a few ideas of where I could improve a couple of maps.

I shall watch the last two later or tomorrow but thanks a lot for the feedback.

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Done through Map04 now and loving it! My favorite part so far was the tactical play at the start of Map03 - do you go for the chainsaw or rush by, and then what do you use your rockets on? Will play through more as I have time, really looking forward to updates on this.

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MAP09, linedef tag 7. You have three different W1 linedefs to close the door, but the switch to open it is S1. Should be SR. I went back to grab ammo and got stuck.

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Posted (edited)

Right here is an update

So after watching a couple of streams, demos and general feedback. I have implemented various changes to some of the levels from bugfixes to adding, removing stuff to hopefully make the maps play a little better. I have played around with implementing some of the mechadon skies as well for a change of pace. I think the E1 sky works well at least.

I have also implemented co-op starts and difficulty settings for the first 11 maps.

 

ddeve1f.zip

 

Moving forward I have already made maps 12 and 13, we will see how things progress from here. I guess I should probably focus on other projects for the time being.

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18 hours ago, cannonball said:

I guess I should probably focus on other projects for the time being.

*cough*hadrone3*cough*

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Bumping this to make an update;

 

Given my situation at the moment where I am realy struggling to find time for doom, I have gone through and editted the first 11 maps and packaged them as a single episode wad. Difficulty settings and co-op elements have been added. This should be the final release which I will put on idgames in the next week.

FIngers crossed I will be able to find more time soon, if only to finish Hadrone3 and possibly get UDINO rolling again, but otherwise it is time to tie up a few loose ends.

ddev.zip

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Shame this won't become a full megawad. I'm sure it would've turned out amazing. Good luck with your rl stuff, mate. I shall await the release of Hadron E3 with great anticipation.

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Played through it again. Still fun. Always like your maps. Two things on MAP10 that I don't remember noticing last time.

 

Linedef tag 20 switch - no way to open closet from the inside if lift closes behind you.

 

You have two Blue Key doors. Both are S1 and have linedef tag 34, but only the lower one has sector tag 34. I assume the upper door is missing the tag rather than that the upper door can never be opened.

 

Awaiting the next great adventure.

 

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