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AbsorbedHatch

Enough about good shotguns, let's talk about the worst!

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2 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

The mission's called "Espresso-to-go!", I think. I didn't know the Leone's carried micro uzi's in that mission, but like I said, it's been a long time since I played a Grand Theft Auto game.

 

Side missions and Rampages are definitely almost impossible in Portland after the mafia swears blood on the player. Every time I started a new GTA 3 game, I always do the side missions first. Saves a lot of pain. 

 

That's the mission. Yeah, they scripted the mafia to carry the micro uzis for that one specific mission since I guess the developers realized how difficult it would be driving in there with the shotguns blowing up your car every time. That's the only mission in all of GTA 3 where they did any scripting.

 

GTA 3 is the most random of the older games since it has no scripting. It's so random that there are times when the "Pump Action Pimp" mission will have the Diablo car spawn right outside the club where you got the mission (and that mission is probably the easiest example of how overpowered the dumb shotguns can be in that game since it's so early in the game and probably is your first death from a mission) 

 

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12 minutes ago, DeadAstronaut said:

 

OH MY GOD, that one mission I did forget on purpose. That one is so notorious they referenced it in GTA 5. 

 

That problem clearly demonstrates the ridiculousness of mission scripting. Every GTA game after 3, started introducing scripting in the missions. Vice City had it, but it was minimal and most players won't even realize the scripting since it's so minimal. Most of it in Vice City was simply armoring the boss enemies, like Diaz in his mansion and Sonny Forelli in the endgame (That's why you can't just 1 shot kill either of them with the Python pistol, and Forelli is scripted not to fall down from it). 

 

San Andreas though was the game where you can see the scripting effect some of the missions. That mission with the train is a great example, cause all the men on the train are scripted to have body armor, which is why they take so damn long to die. There's also missions in that game where the enemy AI will be driving shitty cars, yet they're so hard to chase due to the mission scripting. 

 

GTA IV I think had the most frustrating mission scripting of the whole series. The mission scripting in that game with chase missions had the cars become bullet proof so you can't shoot them enough to catch on fire or shoot out the tires. And the enemy AI cars in those chases can also knock out giant vans and push other cars around. Every chase mission in that game was scripted so you have to follow the entire script before killing the enemy AI, and some of them are scripted just to activate the cut scenes where Niko gets the special kill scenes (like the one with Playboy X). 

You can still easily kill Ricardo Diaz, Lance 'Dance' Vance, and Sonny Forelli if you keep the M-60 from the Phenom Penh '86 mission or steal it from the guard tower at Fort Baxter Air Base. Never played San Andreas, but I picked the aforementioned train quote because it is recognizable. Honestly don't care about GTA 4 and GTA 5, found them quite boring and gritty.

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Guys, you can use private messages, remember? This is a thread about shotguns that suck. You're free to make a thread about GTA, too, it's just a little off-topic now.

Back to the topic at hand, Realm667 has the AA-12 automatic shotgun that's massively underwhelming. Each shot fires like five "bullets" so you're better off using a slower shotgun that actually does damage.

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3 minutes ago, Starkiller said:

You can still easily kill Ricardo Diaz, Lance 'Dance' Vance, and Sonny Forelli if you keep the M-60 from the Phenom Penh '86 mission or steal it from the guard tower at Fort Baxter Air Base. Never played San Andreas, but I picked the aforementioned train quote because it is recognizable. Honestly don't care about GTA 4 and GTA 5, found them quite boring and gritty.

 

Yeah, that's true. You can kill all 3 of them easily if you know what you're doing with that gun. I played GTA 3 and Vice City on consoles years ago. It wasn't until about 2011 when I finally ran them on the PC and realized how they played a bit different. 

 

I hated GTA 4 and 5. They tried to be way too serious while doing the same immature edgy humor from the older games and it just don't work well. GTA IV has a lot of game mechanic issues cause it plays so damn clunky. Player movement, combat and driving are clunky. The driving is easily the worst part since the cars handle so awkwardly. I mentioned the problem with mission scripting in that game, which is a major problem at times. 

 

GTA 5 at least fixed the car handling and you can drive the cars properly, and they also fixed the combat mechanics a bit. But the game is just so edgy and unbearable (or maybe it's cause I'm older now and understand how childish and pointless their attempts of shock factor are). There are points in that game where they're just outright trying to be offensive and edgy for no reason at all, like the awful character of Trevor. But other than that, they created a massive overworld sandbox that gives you nothing interesting to do. GTA 5's overworld is far more about pretty graphics than fun things. There's so much crap to collect that gives you no reward. At least the older games had hidden packages that led to gaining weapons. The overworld feels so empty and one of the biggest issues is how you have to micro-manage the missions with a guide on how to maximize how much money you're going to have at the end of the game, cause you barely get any money at all. San Andreas and even the little handheld Chinatown Wars games at least gave you ways to make money outside the missions. GTA 5 was a huge disappointment and I don't regret selling my copy after I finished it. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Guys, you can use private messages, remember? This is a thread about shotguns that suck. You're free to make a thread about GTA, too, it's just a little off-topic now.

Back to the topic at hand, Realm667 has the AA-12 automatic shotgun that's massively underwhelming. Each shot fires like five "bullets" so you're better off using a slower shotgun that actually does damage.

 

My apologies for going off topic. 

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It's all good, it happens sometimes.

Oh! Another Realm667 shotgun I find somewhat underwhelming: the EgoSmasher, which is weird because in Xaser's Zen Dynamics it was awesome.

Of course, they all sort of pale in comparison to the SPAS-12 you can find in the repository because its alt-fire doesn't use any ammo.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DeadAstronaut said:

GTA IV I think had the most frustrating mission scripting of the whole series. The mission scripting in that game with chase missions had the cars become bullet proof so you can't shoot them enough to catch on fire or shoot out the tires. And the enemy AI cars in those chases can also knock out giant vans and push other cars around. Every chase mission in that game was scripted so you have to follow the entire script before killing the enemy AI, and some of them are scripted just to activate the cut scenes where Niko gets the special kill scenes (like the one with Playboy X). 

I hated the mission GTA4 where you had to chase after a train with a car on the road, it made for some frustrating moments.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Guys, you can use private messages, remember? This is a thread about shotguns that suck. You're free to make a thread about GTA, too, it's just a little off-topic now.

Back to the topic at hand, Realm667 has the AA-12 automatic shotgun that's massively underwhelming. Each shot fires like five "bullets" so you're better off using a slower shotgun that actually does damage.

My bad. I'm still trying to adjust myself posting in the forums. Sometimes I can't help myself. 

 

1 hour ago, DeadAstronaut said:

 

Yeah, that's true. You can kill all 3 of them easily if you know what you're doing with that gun. I played GTA 3 and Vice City on consoles years ago. It wasn't until about 2011 when I finally ran them on the PC and realized how they played a bit different. 

 

I hated GTA 4 and 5. They tried to be way too serious while doing the same immature edgy humor from the older games and it just don't work well. GTA IV has a lot of game mechanic issues cause it plays so damn clunky. Player movement, combat and driving are clunky. The driving is easily the worst part since the cars handle so awkwardly. I mentioned the problem with mission scripting in that game, which is a major problem at times. 

 

GTA 5 at least fixed the car handling and you can drive the cars properly, and they also fixed the combat mechanics a bit. But the game is just so edgy and unbearable (or maybe it's cause I'm older now and understand how childish and pointless their attempts of shock factor are). There are points in that game where they're just outright trying to be offensive and edgy for no reason at all, like the awful character of Trevor. But other than that, they created a massive overworld sandbox that gives you nothing interesting to do. GTA 5's overworld is far more about pretty graphics than fun things. There's so much crap to collect that gives you no reward. At least the older games had hidden packages that led to gaining weapons. The overworld feels so empty and one of the biggest issues is how you have to micro-manage the missions with a guide on how to maximize how much money you're going to have at the end of the game, cause you barely get any money at all. San Andreas and even the little handheld Chinatown Wars games at least gave you ways to make money outside the missions. GTA 5 was a huge disappointment and I don't regret selling my copy after I finished it. 

 

I'm glad we see that both GTA 4 & 5 suck. Let's leave it at that.

 

Moving on topic, I find the Type 97-1 in Rogue Warrior terrible to use. Awful sights, and the powerful feeling of holding a satisfying boomstick is non-existent. It's better to just 'Kill move' every commie in your way.  

Edited by Starkiller

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3 hours ago, cyan0s1s said:

The MP5 in VC is also devastatingly powerful.

 

I haven't played any GTA games (yet) but that sentence is pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect in... any other game, ever.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2018 at 5:25 AM, Pegg said:

I found the Doom 3 shotgun overpowered as fuck as long as you pretend it is the SSG with way better reload speed, monster death sounds cover it that way at least :p.

The monsters die easier. That's not the same as a weapon being overpowered. Even then, you can't miss with the SSG at point blank, unlike the Doom 3 shotgun, which more than once COMPLETELY MISSED A TARGET AT POINT BLANK RANGE for me. Utter garbage, even compared to the rest of the garbage arsenal.

 

I'd also like to nominate the Riot Gun from Shadow Warrior. Awful fire rate, wasteful alt fire, and either way you're forced to reload after only four shots. Even regular pump-actions have a minimum of 5 shots before they go dry, plus one in the chamber. It has a magazine and four gatling barrels. The damn thing should be a fully-auto shotgun, not a pepperbox gun with one shot per barrel. The riot gun LOOKS awesome, but it's borderline worthless.

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@Impie There is pump-actions that only load up to 4. Also the Riot Gun looks like a chaingun.
 

18 hours ago, DeadAstronaut said:

There's a mission at the end of the game where you have to crash these little stalls on the side of the street, and they're on all three islands. One of them is located in Saint Marks near Salvatore's home. I forget the name of the mission, but it's interesting to note that in that one mission, the developers switched the shotguns into micro uzis, cause it's so easy to just drive in there and get killed by the mafia since their shotguns can blow your car up so quickly.


'Espresso-2-Go!' is regarded as one of the hardest missions not just in GTA III but also the entire 3D series. It was very annoying yeah, as the finale with Catalina was much easier after that.
 

18 hours ago, Starkiller said:

Side missions and Rampages are definitely almost impossible in Portland after the mafia swears blood on the player. Every time I started a new GTA 3 game, I always do the side missions first. Saves a lot of pain. 


Having not played GTA III in 9 years (I played through it again on PC since my PS2 copy is long gone) I forgot that the side mission 'Trial by Fire' by El Burro would perma piss off the Triads, effectively making any Paramedic, Taxi, Firefighter or Vigilante missions in Portland a chore. I'll have to remember this next time, it can be pretty mean of the game to do things like this when the player doesn't know they've screwed themselves.
 

18 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Back to the topic at hand, Realm667 has the AA-12 automatic shotgun that's massively underwhelming. Each shot fires like five "bullets" so you're better off using a slower shotgun that actually does damage.


You can modify the weapon's properties with SLADE.

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I know, I just prefer to leave them as they are unless its a problem that interferes with its function directly or (in the case of the SPAS-12) makes it ridiculous to use, because somebody coded a sequence of states to play the pump sound twice. Besides, I ended up replacing the AA-12 in the wad I had it in with a quad shotgun. Quad shotguns are more fun.

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11 hours ago, Impie said:

The monsters die easier. That's not the same as a weapon being overpowered. Even then, you can't miss with the SSG at point blank, unlike the Doom 3 shotgun, which more than once COMPLETELY MISSED A TARGET AT POINT BLANK RANGE for me. Utter garbage, even compared to the rest of the garbage arsenal.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it misses point blank. The monsters collision were tight around them, so at some angles shots will pass between their limbs. Shoot their face or get closer and that won't happen. Point blank IS point blank in the case of the doom 3 shotgun, not even 1-2 steps away!

 

I still think the shitty as fuck bioshock infinite shotgun wins. All the cons of the doom 3 shotgun, maps are huge, most enemies are hitscan or too tank and the list goes on. Who the fuck thought that shotgun was even going to compete with all the sniper rifles in the game.. Hell there is even a vigor that does the shotgun's job 100X times faster and on stronger enemies.

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Posted (edited)

 

Since I brought up GTA, I might as well bring up a GTA clone. 

 

Anyone play the licensed Scarface game back in the day? For the time and still to this day, I thought it was a good game that had some flaws. There was a lot of neat ideas in play and still to this day, the game sticks out for it's ideas. For a GTA clone, there were parts of the Scarface game I thought were done better with combat mechanics (though this is hard to tell due to the bad level design with hordes of enemies thrown at the player). It did weapon customization long before GTA finally did it (and unlike GTA 5, the weapon upgrades are actually useful in this game). I do like the ideas and some of the empire mechanics in Scarface and for years I've wished that someone would come along and make a game similar with those features or expand on it. The game also had a brilliant OST of synth instrumentals by Marc Baril. The soundtrack to that game is incredibly underrated and worth checking out if you like synth wave stuff. 

 

I never found the shotgun in that game to be useful. Scarface in particular had some pretty bad level design with a lot of the missions and it's combat usually consisted of surrounding the player with hordes of enemies to slaughter. The whole "blind rage" mechanic is probably the most useful thing in the whole gameplay, since there are times when you'll need to use it just to refill your health.  

 

But back to the shotguns; the shotgun itself takes at least 3 hits to kill an enemy at close range. Scarface has an odd mechanic system where you get points (or as the game calls it "balls") with your shots connecting to limbs. It's pretty easy to hit an enemy and have them limp forward and still do damage cause the shotgun is that weak. The shotgun is completely useless when doing a gang nest or mission and you get surrounded by a horde of enemies and have to kill them all as a one man army. In the beginning of the game, they give the player the Micro SMG since you most likely need a machine gun to deal with how the game just throws hordes of enemies at you. Late in the game, you most likely will have one of the two assault rifles on you at all times due to this. The shotgun is completely useless at the end of the game. 

 

When enemies use the shotgun, they can easily kill you in 2-3 hits close range and because that game has bad level design with the missions, it's so easy to get surrounded by a horde of enemies from every corner and if they have shotguns and are in close range, you're dead if you don't have a full points meter to activate blind rage. 

 

 

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The shotguns in Fallout 3 and NV were pretty lame, unless to took perks like "Shotgun Surgeon" and "And Stay Back", then they pretty much became OP. However, just by themselves they're nothing special.

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11 hours ago, Impie said:

I'd also like to nominate the Riot Gun from Shadow Warrior. Awful fire rate, wasteful alt fire, and either way you're forced to reload after only four shots. Even regular pump-actions have a minimum of 5 shots before they go dry, plus one in the chamber. It has a magazine and four gatling barrels. The damn thing should be a fully-auto shotgun, not a pepperbox gun with one shot per barrel. The riot gun LOOKS awesome, but it's borderline worthless.

 

I had exactly the same reaction as I just started replaying Shadow Warrior again. The design of the weapon looks amazing but it's exactly that, slow fire/reload, and then the special mode that can be wasteful, I have a hard time aiming enemies at the proper timing for some reasons, something with a little delay in animation when firing maybe.

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Battlefield 4 shotguns, all of them. You can miss target from 2 meters range, but sometimes you can be killed from 30+ meters with standard pellets. Shotguns look cool, sounds great, but, nope, "balance" ruins these nice weapons.

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1 hour ago, DeadAstronaut said:

Anyone play the licensed Scarface game back in the day?


I played it, I thought it was great until I realized how shallow and incomplete it feels compared to other GTA clones. The world has nearly nothing to do, akin to Mafia III. The soundtrack and in-game advertisements make me wonder if this was suppose to be a Scarface game or a Bodog music commercial that happens to have a video game about Scarface attached to it. The story missions largely consist of 'what's wrong with your business? oh some assholes are giving you shit? I'll take care of them for you and then I can get a percentage of your business.' outside of missions involving hits, which came off as extremely lazy. The story is also poorly written and super cliche.

I was also able to reach level 8 (lit up the SCARFACE logo) while still on the first island from grinding and breaking the system (getting those phone calls from Sosa sure were threatening having done nothing to warrant them at this point). Also I was able to get early weapons like the M16 and M60 by exploiting the law enforcement (and gunning down the chopper gunner on the first mission involving a hit and retrieving his dropped M60). Weapon vendors will refill ammo for any weapon, even if you don't own it. I also got the AK-47, MAC-10 and M79 early from recruiting the driver and enforcer henchmen and just putting their arsenal into one of my cars' trunks. Well designed this game was not.

Also I don't remember the shotgun being that weak, it would one-shot people if you aimed at the head or limbs. It also had an undocumented and unrealistic alt fire where you can spam the shotgun semi-auto (hilarious at getting police attention almost instantly when fired in public). There was some improvements over GTA regarding the ability to drive-by with any firearm and in any direction, before Saints Row did it I think, owning and calling in your personalized vehicles, also like Saints Row, and participating in actual conversations with pedestrians, which could be quite humorous (I remember there being a fat guy in a wrestling outfit who shouted nonsense like an absolute nutter).

I do agree Marc Baril's compositions were excellent and interestingly well before the retrowave scene had arrived 6 years later.

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2 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:


I played it, I thought it was great until I realized how shallow and incomplete it feels compared to other GTA clones. The world has nearly nothing to do, akin to Mafia III. The soundtrack and in-game advertisements make me wonder if this was suppose to be a Scarface game or a Bodog music commercial that happens to have a video game about Scarface attached to it. The story missions largely consist of 'what's wrong with your business? oh some assholes are giving you shit? I'll take care of them for you and then I can get a percentage of your business.' outside of missions involving hits, which came off as extremely lazy. The story is also poorly written and super cliche.

I was also able to reach level 8 (lit up the SCARFACE logo) while still on the first island from grinding and breaking the system (getting those phone calls from Sosa sure were threatening having done nothing to warrant them at this point). Also I was able to get early weapons like the M16 and M60 by exploiting the law enforcement (and gunning down the chopper gunner on the first mission involving a hit and retrieving his dropped M60). Weapon vendors will refill ammo for any weapon, even if you don't own it. I also got the AK-47, MAC-10 and M79 early from recruiting the driver and enforcer henchmen and just putting their arsenal into one of my cars' trunks. Well designed this game was not.

Also I don't remember the shotgun being that weak, it would one-shot people if you aimed at the head or limbs. It also had an undocumented and unrealistic alt fire where you can spam the shotgun semi-auto (hilarious at getting police attention almost instantly when fired in public). There was some improvements over GTA regarding the ability to drive-by with any firearm and in any direction, before Saints Row did it I think, owning and calling in your personalized vehicles, also like Saints Row, and participating in actual conversations with pedestrians, which could be quite humorous (I remember there being a fat guy in a wrestling outfit who shouted nonsense like an absolute nutter).

I do agree Marc Baril's compositions were excellent and interestingly well before the retrowave scene had arrived 6 years later.

 

Everything you summed up here is true. The missions were done very badly and the overall writing just takes the Scarface caricature and ramps it up on steroids. The story lacked all of the seriousness of the film, completely missing the point. The game had some neat ideas to it, but was poorly done. There's some things I like about it, while others are frustrating. You pretty much summed up everything I liked about it with the features. I like the combat too, though most of the levels are poorly designed by just spawning enemies randomly everywhere. I could talk about this at length since I toyed with it years ago on certain missions and caught it respawning enemies, usually at random places. The combat mechanics offering the box where you can shoot limbs was what I found to be most neat. 

 

Did not think about that with the shotgun one-shotting enemies by aiming at the head. Now I am tempted to load up the game and give that a try, been years since I played it. I think I was wrong about that now. What you mention about the helicopter in the first mission dropping the SAW gun, I found that out years ago and used that to exploit the game and make it easy as hell early on. 

 

You summed up most of the problems though with the bad game design in general that people forget about. IMO I like to think that the Scarface game had a lot of neat ideas that probably could've worked elsewhere, especially not in a game that was a licensed "alternate ending" sequel to a movie that didn't need it. 

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11 hours ago, Pegg said:

I don't think it misses point blank.

It does. Maybe you were lucky, but it's happened. I have rubbed up against a monster, pointed the gun in their mouth, pulled the trigger, and left a Looney Tunes outline around the unharmed monster.

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Don't care how hated my comment is about to get but:

 

 

Half-Life 2's shotgun. That thing is WAY too unpredictable. One moment I can take down an enemy in one or two shots, other times it takes a good few. And I mean same enemies.

 

Plus the really tiny amount of ammo you can hold for it means I burn through it too fast. (Don't tell me to use SMG, the SMG is worse!)

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I actually liked the shotgun from HL2. I never used its secondary because its "double-shot" didn't actually do double damage (something like 175% damage actually), so I stuck with primary fire which seemed to have a fairly good range.

The shotgun from the first HL was difficult to get used to at first because it had a properly tight spread and its double-shot was remarkably accurate, and actually did do double damage.

 

Tomb Raider Anniversary's shotgun was supposed to be a simple rehash of the one from TR1 (which was pretty beast), but it somehow sucked, so I ended up defaulting to the large caliber pistols or the base pistols the whole game.

However, the golden shotgun from the same game was hysterically overpowered. One shot kill on anything? Yes, please! Using either it or the dual silver machine pistols made the time trails trivial, because using cheats didn't disqualify your time, for some reason.

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