Why do a ton of older megawads always have slaughter maps occupying the map32 slot?

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

maps mustn't be meant to test your skill.

How else is a map difficult, if it doesn't test a player's skill? And what good is a map that doesn't put you on the edge of your seat here and there? I don't like playing things that aren't difficult in some way. It makes me feel like I spent my time on something that didn't really manage to hold my attention.

 

Besides, all video games are a test of skill. Literally all of them. It's just that some games are easier/harder than others.

 

9 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

By unnecessarily difficult I mean exactly those - maps that are meant to test someone's skill.

Every map does that. All of them. Exceptions merely confirm the rule. If nothing tests your skills, then "beating it" is meaningless.

 

11 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

The map itself feels like it's meant to be difficult.

Because plutonia is meant to be more difficult than OG Doom. That's why.

 

11 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

And slaughter maps especially - one cyberdemon is enough of difficulty.

No... One cyberdemon means nothing these days, unless you're stuck with it in a very tight space where it's hard to evade his rockets. A single cyberdemon in the wilds is nothing people get "excited" about. This isn't the 90s anymore. People have moved on, and they became better at the game. You should play some custom WADs like "Valiant" or "ancient aliens" to see what the "popular baseline" for gameplay is these days... Rest assured, it's nothing like the iWADs.

 

Video below shows me playing a map that isn't even difficult in terms of slaughter. Virtually anybody on these forums who plays regularly will be able to beat it eventually without much of an issue. Most maps I enjoy playing are significantly more difficult. And there's others like me.

 

 

 

 

[mrthejoshmon]

I've always actually wondered slaughter maps are usually put into MAP31/32 slots rather than late 20's to 30's slots.

 

I feel as though, if done correctly, a gradual build could lead to slaughter maps being the natural progression to a megawad rather than a surprise buttfucking for finding the secret exit. I suppose that having 1000 monster clusterfucks appear later in a mapset would turn off a few players from starting it all together but if handled well I think they could be eased into pseudo slaughter maps by the end rather than ambushed by it at MAP31/32.

 

I feel as though MAP31/32 could be used for more unique experimental/uncomfortable maps by the developers (with easy dismissal of potential failure due to it being a throwaway secret map).

 

Also, horses... Apparently.

[leodoom85]

Here we go again with the eternal slaughter topic that many are divided for.

Seriously folks. If you check the secret maps previously and find that there's hard to do it, then skip it and don't waste more time on it if you're not capable. It's really that simple.

 

PS: looks like horses are added into the recipe. Weird.

[spd7693]

@Nine Inch Heels Even this is a map I consider unnecessarily difficult. That's the type of maps I'm sick of seeing. And that's why my opinions I have. I respect the choices of people like you. Such maps are interesting for more skilled players, even speedrunners like you. 

 

I don't play Doom to speedrun and just slay monsters. I just see that most people that play Doom these days are like you and like @Fonze explained. I don't see doomers like @Altima, like LightningBoltForever and like myself any longer. People who enjoy the game for its journey, for just playing it, walking through the maps. Not saying my maps are very enjoyable to walk within them. But my goal is to see more players like me who don't give a s*** about speedrunning a game. For non-professional gamers. I did expect to see some pros here. But not the majority of you to be pros and speedrunners. I also expected to see people like me - who just enjoy playing on UV and not give a s*** about speedrunning. 

 

I basically almost never enjoy slaughter maps. I enjoy maps like Memento Mori 14 - why are no longer maps made that way? This is a model map for me. Well, one of them. 

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I know I said I'd stand aside, but apparently I lied, because I'm putting forth my two cents once more.

 

First, I must note that horses are involved somehow and I'm not the cause, how did that happen?

A game without challenge is usually agreed to not be fun by general consensus.

Slaughter is a genre of sorts that some like and some don't.

As @Nine Inch Heels pointed out (at me, no less), Plutonia isn't slaughter. It's difficult because of superb monster placement, which I really like.

Off that topic, not everybody agrees on the same thing. 'Nuff said.

And I'll stay out of the slaughter/whatever-this-became debate from here on (ie, I'll shut up).

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, spd7693 said:

I just see that most people that play Doom these days are like you and like @Fonze explained. I don't see doomers like @Altima, like LightningBoltForever and like myself any longer. People who enjoy the game for its journey, for just playing it, walking through the maps.

There are still plenty mappers who build stuff that doesn't turn into adrenaline fueled murderfests. YukiRaven is one of them, and she recently released a map that I played and wrote a review for.

https://www.doomworld.com/files/file/19093-umbra-of-fate/

 

That being said, these maps are still being made.

 

10 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

But my goal is to see more players like me who don't give a s*** about speedrunning a game.

You can't keep people from speedrunning your maps if they feel inspired to do so. Rest assured, most people don't care about speedrunning anyway, but what people do care about is getting to play something that they deem worth their time for one reason or another. Speedrunners are always in the single digit vicinity of the total amount of players anyway. That said, most people are like you, and would never consider speedrunning anything. Even people who like to play or create hard maps aren't necessarily speedrunners, but it sure is nice to be able to build something for myself when I need the workout, not that I'm much of a speedrunner to begin with, though.

 

15 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

But not the majority of you to be pros and speedrunners.

That is entirely wrong. Most of "us" aren't pros or speedrunners. You need to realize, though, that everybody here who spent a good deal of time with this game, has some "advanced" (relative to what iWADs require) expertise to begin with. And since we don't want to derail this thread ad infinitum: The reason these maps are in secret slots is because most people at the time would consider those to be too hard to be part of the main progression.

[leodoom85]

2 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

You need to realize, though, that everybody here who spent a good deal of time with this game, has some "advanced" (relative to what iWADs require) expertise to begin with.

This in a nutshell I agree. If anyone feels that it's capable to deal with hardships, then keep practicing until you get accostumed to it.

[spd7693]

@Nine Inch Heels I'm glad we're finally finding common ground to be honest. Unless you think we aren't. And yes, if people wanna speedrun my maps, I totally appreciate that. Furthermore... Let me tell this to you in PMs, because I don't want the others to read too much nicities here. 

[spd7693]

26 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

It's difficult because of superb monster placement, which I really like.

 

This is why Milo Casali is my favorite mapper. Dario too, but Milo is superrior. Too bad Milo stopped making Doom maps after 1995... 

There is only one map maker I enjoy the "slaughter" maps of and his name is Milo. 

 

Disclaimer: I said that map 13 of Plutonia - made by Milo - is unnecessarily difficult. I personally don't enjoy it. But it's not a slaughter map. What I'm targeting is Memento Mori map 23

[Benjogami]

15 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

I enjoy maps like Memento Mori 14 - why are no longer maps made that way?

 

I went to check out this map. Lots of maps are still made that way. I suppose these days they don't often have shit tons of extra ammo like this one does.

[Deadwing]

If you don't like slaughter stuff, then don't play it. 😛 Especially if its a secret level, meant to be optional. There are tons of very high quality stuff that doesn't feature any slaughter stuff at all. 

 

Personally I don't like this style of gameplay (to be more precise, "huge setpieces encounters envolving large and long fights in a very large level"), but let the people who likes enjoy it. I do enjoy a bit of slaughter-lite gameplay though (which I would classify as a larger setpiece in a normal level)

[Marcaek]

I'm glad it's less of a trend in any case.

[Bob9001]

8 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

As I remember, TNT MAP31 was made by the Casalis, and it was (especially for the set) extremely unique, and MAP32 seemed to be somewhat generic.

I didn't very much like TNT except for MAP31 because the set was shit it seemed to be of lower quality than Doom/Doom II/Plutonia.

But, you know, it's just, like, my opinion.

I like this opinion!

 

But on the other hand, TNT is different based on the fact that Map 31 is supposed be Egypt and Map 32 is supposed to be somewhere in the Caribbean. That to me is originality.

[GarrettChan]

The author can lazily counter people who talk $hit on slaughter maps by saying he/she can do whatever on secret maps.

 

3 hours ago, spd7693 said:

Disclaimer: I said that map 13 of Plutonia - made by Milo - is unnecessarily difficult. I personally don't enjoy it.

Just curious, would you mind explaining the reasons?

Edited May 11, 2018 by GarrettChan

[AD_79]

The Crypt has like one room that could be potentially considered as such in my mind, and that's the blood pit on the east side with the chaingunners and the archvile. That's only because actually going in there without a BFG is pretty dangerous and as such, the room ends up promoting camping from the entrance and taking SSG potshots at the vile, if my memory serves me right. BTW, this totally isn't the thread for this, but the "official mapper credits" for Plutonia on Doomwiki or wherever aren't entirely accurate. Analysis of the maps will reveal that MAP08, 13 and 25 lean way more towards being Dario creations. I really hope this can get cleared up at some point, so people who love Milo's mapping can accurately point to his stuff when they need to, heh.

 

Just so I don't get yelled at for being too off-topic, here's my two cents: Slaughtermaps are great (I don't like every single one, of course, but that's true for everything in life. I'm also terrible at them, do keep that in mind), and the secret slots are an excellent place to put them so people who complain constantly about them don't actually have to play them as a sort of "hey, want an optional challenge?". Those aren't mandatory, you know, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. I like to point toward BTSX E2 for this; Fireking Says No Cheating is an awesome map and isn't something you should push through just because it's there. It's for the people who want something a little more extreme in their megawad. Don't force yourself to play something you don't enjoy, and please don't yell at the community for making stuff that you don't enjoy. There's something for pretty much everyone around here, and if there isn't, I'm sure it'll exist at some point.

 

I should add that I really don't mind being tossed into a map of that sort in the main progression either; it can serve as a nice change of pace. 

[GarrettChan]

22 minutes ago, AD_79 said:

BTW, this totally isn't the thread for this, but the "official mapper credits" for Plutonia on Doomwiki or wherever aren't entirely accurate. Analysis of the maps will reveal that MAP08, 13 and 25 lean way more towards being Dario creations.

I thought the difficult room of Map13 would be the last one where you need to rush the Arch-vile and there are so PE around you or sort. Anyway, I always want to know who made which map in Plutonia, but it seems I can't find this information. How can search for the so called "official mapper credits"?

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

"official mapper credits"?

Check the wiki and look at each individual map entry.

[GarrettChan]

1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Check the wiki and look at each individual map entry.

Arrrgh, I swear I've done that (yeah, I know there are two similar wiki things, but I definitely checked both of them), but it turns out me being dumb. Thanks anyway.

[spd7693]

AFAIK in Plutonia all the odd maps are by Milo except 31 and all the even are by Dario except 32. I'm sure that Abattoire, Twilight, Go 2 It, Tombstone and Odissey Of Noises are by Milo. And I'm sure that Onslaught, Speed, Impossible Mission and Sewers are by Dario. 

 

Wait... How is Hunted by Dario? It plays more like a Milo map... Perhaps that's what we've been used to think before Dario stated he had made more maps??? But a lot of people I see don't believe the Doom wiki, so I don't know... 

[Quagsire]

The thing with Plutonia though is that it wasn't designed in a way that relied on you using only the BFG. It was constructed in a way where all weapons come into play most of the time, and not primarily the BFG alone.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Really, every weapon had its own little niche in Plutonia, but I found myself defaulting to the SSG and rocket launcher most often. For me, the BFG only ever came out either in dire circumstances or situations in which not using it would be even costlier. Go 2 It had a few of each moment by itself.

[AD_79]

Yay, I finally get to pull out this list that I've had stashed away for a while. Kind of an odd thread for it but whatever. After some careful analysis of Plutonia's maps and talking with some other people about it, here's who I think did what:

 

DARIO: 02, 04, 06, 07, 08, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 20, 22, 25, 26, 31

MILO: 01, 03, 05, 09*, 12, 15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 23, 24, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32

 

This is still up for debate, and we may never get a perfect list (especially as this doesn't line up with either of Dario's estimates on who did what, 16/16 and 14/18), but in terms of the styles shown off in each map, this is as close as I can manage. 09 is the one I'm not sure about. 09 was originally uploaded to the archives as a Milo map, but the exit room seen in the Plutonia version screams Dario, with the imperfect, very un-Milo shape of the circle being the primary factor. Is it possible that Dario took the existing map and built a new, less underwhelming exit?

Edited May 11, 2018 by AD_79

[SOSU]

@AbsorbedHatch If you don't like slot 32 slaughter maps i recommend playing slot 31 maps as well as EXM9s of Doom/UDoom wads ;V
Also we shouldn't complain about a maps genre since it's probably not meant to be played by someone that doesn't like that genre (skipping levels with commands is a thing you know),Absorbedhatch is basically saying that he dislikes Super Mario for the sole reason of it being a platformer and not a visual novel.
The only thing that comes close to complaining that we should do is giving constructive criticism to all the maps out there! 😄

[Quagsire]

What I was saying though was that a lot of older megawads share this same minor but agitating detail, and that I don't understand why it was such a trend.

[GarrettChan]

46 minutes ago, AD_79 said:

(Map09)

Em, very interesting information. Until just now I found out that the entrance of Map09 is not unified as most of the Plutonia maps, so it should be a map finished prior to Plutonia and gets modified. Thanks for the summary, so I can be lazy not to check each of those.

[geo]

Chances are because you need to be good enough to find map 32... or the knowledge that map 32 is usually a testing ground full of weapons that cheaters use to test things.

[Benjogami]

1 hour ago, AbsorbedHatch said:

What I was saying though was that a lot of older megawads share this same minor but agitating detail, and that I don't understand why it was such a trend.

 

I think it's a common thing to do because it's fun. Even if you like normal Doom stuff most of the time, it's fun to set aside a day for extreme/weird/outlandish stuff. It's sorta like Halloween, and some people like Halloween so much that every day is Halloween.

 

Why don't you like Halloween?

[Spectre.Charles]

Because Slaughtermaps are fun and challenging, just like a secret level should be? And secret levels are optional so them being extremely hard makes sense?

[Quagsire]

True, but they shouldn't be so punishing on the player for finding them. My main issue with Scythe 2's second secret map is how brutal it is compared to any other map seen.

[Quagsire]

23 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

 

I think it's a common thing to do because it's fun. Even if you like normal Doom stuff most of the time, it's fun to set aside a day for extreme/weird/outlandish stuff. It's sorta like Halloween, and some people like Halloween so much that every day is Halloween.

 

Why don't you like Halloween?

That's the thing though, it's hard to look at a secret exit and think "Hey, I'm not at all curious on what's back here waiting for me."