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MattGuy1990

Commissioning mods?

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Posted (edited)

Hi, I'm just dropping by and haven't read too much of this thread, but being paid to make some maps would be very cool. That is, provided people are actually willing to pay for said maps. It's something I've thought about a couple times now. We totally have a shitload of free content by now, but say someone wanted a mapper to make something very specific? Perhaps the mapper could take commissions as a way to make some interesting, unique content on the side, to suit certain tastes? Or if the commissioner wanted a little more of a previous mapset and were willing to pay for its creation? I dunno, I'm kinda spitballing, but the idea does appeal to me (both ways, provided I had the money). I just don't really want to be the first person to attempt it, haha. Admittedly it's part "I don't think I'm at the level required to do so" and part "I have no idea what rates would be fair", but it's mainly fear that the idea wouldn't take off, especially in a community bursting at the seams with content.

 

essel has a point though, if this thread exists then clearly there's at least some interest, heh.

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14 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

This is straight up wrong. You bloody well don't get to decide how much an hour of my lifetime is worth. I make that call, and if you don't like it then maybe we negotiate for something a bit more within the confines of your budged, but I'm not selling my time under value just because you think you, or anybody else, is in a position to dictate the terms. This isn't a buyer's market, you want me to build a map, then you want something from me, not the other way around.

I said: This boils down to what value the buyer places on the product or service

You said: You will dictate the price. It's not a buyer's market, and I can't make you sell for less than you think your effort is worth

I never said you don't have the right to dictate the price, or that this is a buyer's market, or that I can force you to sell your effort for less than you believe you should. You have every right to ask for the price that you deem appropriate. But if I think your price is too high I can walk away. Or, I can negotiate with you, and we can try to come to a reasonable middle-ground. That's what's mostly happening in the DooM community right now, except that the price happens to be zero - this is a price that the modder is asking, and this is the price that community member is accepting.

22 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

Also, I would suspect that the very existence of this thread is pretty solid evidence that at least one person is interested in commissioning custom Doom stuff from creators in the community.

Agreed. One interested party, however, doesn't a trend make. That's not to say that a trend will never develop. Think about the rich people who played Nintendo games as kids, and are willing to pay boat-loads of money (at least compared to the original price of the items) for the consoles and cartridges, all for the sake of nostalgia. DooM community members could have made it big, and would be willing to pay hundreds of dollars to commission a creation made solely for them. It's just not widespread yet.

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13 minutes ago, ReX said:

The question I have been asking is: How many people would be willing to pay what the artist's time and end product might really be worth?

 

From an market economics point of view, what people are willing to pay for it is what it's worth :)

 

As I noted above, the amount of time and effort most artists put into creative work generally translates into a paltry amount per hour.  "Financially speaking, minimum wage is better" kind of paltry.  The same is true of most writers, for that matter.  There are very notable exceptions of course, but making art is a hard way to earn a living.  And I say all this as someone who pretty fiercely advocates for creative types to charge more for their work (and to never work for "exposure", if you intend this to be your career).

 

Now of course I don't think anyone is seriously considering making Doom stuff as a viable career, but in those circumstances if the actual payment you can get for doing it turns out to be a couple of bucks an hour at best, then I suspect a lot of people would rather just work on their own stuff, where the only one they need to please is themselves.

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, AD_79 said:

Hi, I'm just dropping by and haven't read too much of this thread, but being paid to make some maps would be very cool. That is, provided people are actually willing to pay for said maps. It's something I've thought about a couple times now. We totally have a shitload of free content by now, but say someone wanted a mapper to make something very specific? Perhaps the mapper could take commissions as a way to make some interesting, unique content on the side, to suit certain tastes? Or if the commissioner wanted a little more of a previous mapset and were willing to pay for its creation? I dunno, I'm kinda spitballing, but the idea does appeal to me (both ways, provided I had the money). I just don't really want to be the first person to attempt it, haha. Admittedly it's part "I don't think I'm at the level required to do so" and part "I have no idea what rates would be fair", but it's mainly fear that the idea wouldn't take off, especially in a community bursting at the seams with content.

 

essel has a point though, if this thread exists then clearly there's at least some interest, heh.

 

One case could be where someone is making a gameplay mod for Doom, and wants someone to make a map to go alongside with it. Or perhaps he wants a cameo from his/her favourite mapper in his/her own mapset.

Pricing is always difficult, since you have to consider your own work pace, what sort of quality/size/length both you and your client want to settle on... However, I don't expect people being able to pull professional pay from these unless it is an actual commercial project. Then again, I have had bad habit of underpricing my own art shit in past, so what do I know about pricing.

 

And regarding actual production of commission, good communication is important between clients. Some clients are more hands-off, some have lot of opinions on the product (valid or not, they are one paying usually. Thankfully my clients have been kinda insightful usually).

 

And yeah, I don't see Doom mapping in particular being a career. Even where art commissions are blooming, you are probably not gonna make anywhere near liveable wage until you become rather well-known/popular - and even then they usually augment their income by streaming, patreon etc.. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, ReX said:

You have every right to ask for the price that you deem appropriate. But if I think your price is too high I can walk away. Or, I can negotiate with you, and we can try to come to a reasonable middle-ground. That's what's mostly happening in the DooM community right now, except that the price happens to be zero - this is a price that the modder is asking, and this is the price that community member is accepting.

Unless you ask any mapper who knows they're worth their salt to build you a map according to your specifications, you have no proof that the currently asked price is precisely zero.

 

What is happening is that people build the kind of stuff they enjoy playing, and they share it for free. That is not the same as you coming to me, asking me to build you something that you enjoy. Why is that so hard to understand? That's the whole bloody point. You want one certain person, to do one specific thing, in just the way that you want it done. When was the last time ribbiks asked you if you're okay with the difficulty of SunLust map 25?

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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On 5/14/2018 at 6:18 PM, Memfis said:

I will make vanilla maps for money, gimme gimme.

If Memfis had a Patreon account, I'd chip in 10$ per month just to see if it gets him to pump out a map. 

And I might not be alone: the likes on the first page kinda sounds like people saying "shut-up and take my money!".  I wonder if that would be enough incentive to keep mapping, which is already sorta a hobby anyways.

 

38 minutes ago, AD_79 said:

Or if the commissioner wanted a little more of a previous mapset and were willing to pay for its creation?

For what it's worth, I'd also pay 100$ for another d2twid or resurgence megawad before any retail game.

 

I dunno.  I'm just a data point relevant to the thread, i guess.

 

There's also sorta a barrier to broaching the subject in the first place: awkwardness, lack of knowledge in the first place, uncertainty and confusion, logistics, etc.

 

Also, I saw this thread before lunch earlier today and was like: "I'd totally make a shitty speedmap for a burrito right now".  Neverminding the timing and logistic issues that I abstracted away there, I was serious in that statement.  I got price too.

 

g'nite :)

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Posted (edited)

Well I made the final boss sprites for Maskim Xul for free because I thought the project was super duper awesome. Better step up my game to actually make money on an hourly basis somewhere somehow since I'm going to be 20 years old soon. I only do pixel art though (and pen and pencil on paper).

 

Mapping to me is entirely a passion project so I definitely wouldn't take commissions for them (unless maybe it was for a million dollars).

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26 minutes ago, Alfonzo said:

 

Throw in a flat 10K and I'll make Doom 2 every year for the next 10 years plus I'll convert to Mormonism and wear a really colourful bow tie.

 

You work too cheap, 'fonz.

 

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Commissioning assets is fine. But selling mods opens a Pandora's Box.  Once money is involved, expect lots of unscrupulous folk taking other people's freely released mods without credit, and selling it off as their own.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mordeth said:

Commissioning assets is fine. But selling mods opens a Pandora's Box.  Once money is involved, expect lots of unscrupulous folk taking other people's freely released mods without credit, and selling it off as their own.

I feel like you completely missed what this topic is about, but it would probably be a smart idea to have an anti-scam thread where the commissioner can, say, post screenshots of the map layout or stuff so that people can make sure that the person they're commissioning from didn't just take someone else's map and edit it a bit. As someone who follows an artist that does Twitch emote commissions, I can tell you that that occurs more often than you'd hope - but catching someone in the act can mitigate it.

 

'Course, this is a pretty future-focused problem, as the Doom community's pretty dang small ( y'know, compared to the entire online art community ) that there's not really much of an opportunity for an unknown to pop up and start offering to map for cash, since ... I mean, who the heck's going to take them up on that offer with how easy it is to tell who's a prolific mapper and who isn't around here?

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7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Unless you ask any mapper who knows they're worth their salt to build you a map according to your specifications, you have no proof that the currently asked price is precisely zero.

As a matter or record, the only proof you need is that virtually no one is charging for DooM mods. This does not imply that mods are worth precisely zero; just that, currently, the price is zero.

 

Asking talented mappers what their mods are worth is not the same as declaring what the community would be willing to pay for them.

 

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

What is happening is that people build the kind of stuff they enjoy playing, and they share it for free. That is not the same as you coming to me, asking me to build you something that you enjoy. Why is that so hard to understand? That's the whole bloody point. You want one certain person, to do one specific thing, in just the way that you want it done. When was the last time ribbiks asked you if you're okay with the difficulty of SunLust map 25?

It's not difficult to understand, and I have not misunderstood. Read my posts and you'll see I have not suggested that if someone wants a custom map they should be unwilling to pay for it. On the contrary, I have said just the opposite. My principal declaration is that, ultimately, the market will dictate the price.

 

The "whole bloody point" is that commissioning will flourish partly based on the availability of talent for sale (supply), and the willingness of people to pay for that talent (demand). Introduce lots of free, high-quality mods (oversupply), and you will generally have fewer buyers of "paid" mods (diminishing demand). This seems to be the current state of the market for commissioned DooM mods.

 

In contrast, in the early days of DooM modding, when high-speed internet access was not widespread, people paid for data disks containing mods that were freely available on idgames. Once again, the basic laws of economics were at work there. The demand was high, and the supply was limited - many people did not want to spend hours and days to download free mods, when they could pay US$ 10 to get 750 or 1,000 mods that they could pick up at a retail counter in a fraction of the time it would have taken to download that many mods. [The fact that most of those mods were trash does not negate the fact that people were willing to pay for them, possibly in the hopes that some of the mods would be worthwhile.]

 

Let me reiterate what I have been saying all along: I am not against people marketing their talent. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it. If I approach you for a custom mod, or I approach esselfortium for custom music, you both have the absolute right to ask me for payment. If I deem that it is a fair price, we'll have a deal. Otherwise, each one of us has the right to walk away. Furthermore, I've been saying that the price I will be willing to pay is based on the value I perceive I am receiving, and my financial ability. As neither of these parameters will be the same for all members of the DooM community, it is very difficult to definitively declare what everyone will consider a "fair price". These factors make the commissioning of DooM mods a challenging proposition at this time.

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8 hours ago, Capellan said:

From an market economics point of view, what people are willing to pay for it is what it's worth :)

Agreed. It's also pretty much what I've been saying all along.

 

8 hours ago, Capellan said:

As I noted above, the amount of time and effort most artists put into creative work generally translates into a paltry amount per hour..... but making art is a hard way to earn a living.

 

Now of course I don't think anyone is seriously considering making Doom stuff as a viable career, but in those circumstances if the actual payment you can get for doing it turns out to be a couple of bucks an hour at best, then I suspect a lot of people would rather just work on their own stuff, where the only one they need to please is themselves.

Yes, sadly, throughout most of history artists have been relegated to a life of penury. The 20th century changed that, primarily because technologies allowed the rapid and relatively inexpensive distribution of content (radio, TV, internet), and the increase in disposable income. Now, musicians and authors and actors can acquire a degree of wealth that was inconceivable even a century ago.

 

But, I suspect that neither the people on this community requesting commissions, nor the people prepared to offer it, expect that the offerors can make a living off this. They can certainly hope (and even expect) to make some money off their efforts, but it will likely simply supplement another source of income. A small part of the Gig Economy at work.

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The availability of free /idgames/ content is a red herring that keeps popping up in this thread. That's like saying Katy Perry shouldn't expect compensation from Capitol Records because other people's music is available for free on [the radio | youtube | copy mp3s | share cassette tapes | etc].

 

Also back to Vorpal's Wonderful World of Anecdotes, with regards to level design and commissioned work, it was quite popular for many years on interlopers.net (source engine/hammer editor community). And that is just one micro-community of which others probably exist(ed) for that engine, god knows there are/were bigger communities... hell, ours is way bigger.

 

Oh and, inb4 people focus on the fame of Katy Perry in my popcorn example as justification that normies work for a pittance

 

 

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9 hours ago, ReX said:

Agreed. One interested party, however, doesn't a trend make. That's not to say that a trend will never develop. Think about the rich people who played Nintendo games as kids, and are willing to pay boat-loads of money (at least compared to the original price of the items) for the consoles and cartridges, all for the sake of nostalgia. DooM community members could have made it big, and would be willing to pay hundreds of dollars to commission a creation made solely for them. It's just not widespread yet.

 

9 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Unless you ask any mapper who knows they're worth their salt to build you a map according to your specifications, you have no proof that the currently asked price is precisely zero.

This is an interesting thought experiment. Suppose Individual X was a teenager (let's just say male) in the mid-90's and absolutely fell head-over-heels in love with Doom (it changed his life, etc.) and he has held it in high esteem for the last two decades. Now, further suppose that Individual X has become wealthy (by some means, let's say some sort of legal business) and now wants to approach a set of mappers whose work he enjoyed to make him his own custom megawad that he can sit in his mansion and play on his giant media wall (I'm being a bit over-the-top now). Now, let's assume that he wants this to be his own experience, in which case, the following things would not surprise me:

  • He would contact this set of mappers directly, not post a request on a public forum.
  • There would be contracts involved.
  • There would confidentiality agreements covering all the work.

If this set of criteria were true, it would not be unreasonable to me that we would not know about it. So, while I consider it unlikely, it is not completely outside the realm of possibility that someone has privately commissioned Doom levels/mods to be made for their own private consumption.

 

Now, does this mean that there is a mass market for Doom commissions because a wealthy individual or individuals would be willing to privately commission work? No. All I'm saying is that this sort of thing could already be happening and we wouldn't know about it.

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With regard to the issue of the valuation of time, this is how I think about it.

 

About 5 or 6 years ago, I considered doing freelance editorial work of technical documents (scientific papers, etc.) that would be submitted to English-language journals by people who were not native speakers. The way the editorial staff structured the work was that there were two classes of service, Class 1 and Class 2 (I don't recall if that's what they were actually called). For Class 1, you corrected spelling, punctuation, and very basic grammar. For Class 2, you corrected spelling, punctuation, syntax, grammar, suggestions edits for clarity (revisions to sentences, moving clauses around, etc.). Obviously, it was expected that Class 2 work were require more time and expertise than Class 1 work, so the company was willing to offer more for it. The faster you could work (without a reduction in quality), the more of a premium they were willing to offer. Ultimately, I decided that the amount of money wasn't worth the time that I would spend doing the work, so I turned down their offer.

 

On the other hand, I once met an artist who would do commissions of work for people, specializing in paintings of their pets and other animals. He charged a rather high amount, because he was rather skilled and because he considered art as a necessity for life (his words) and didn't want it undervalued. If people were willing to pay that rate, fine. If not, he would not accept less than he felt his skills were worth.

 

Ultimately, the artist (here, the person creating the Doom asset) is entitled to decide how much he/she values his/her own time and expertise. However, the patron (here, the person commissioning the asset) is entitled to decide how much he/she is willing to pay for the work prior to commissioning its creation. Its a two-way street, in that neither side can force the other to charge less or pay more, at least, until a contract is signed.

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15 minutes ago, Pegleg said:

Ultimately, the artist (here, the person creating the Doom asset) is entitled to decide how much he/she values his/her own time and expertise. However, the patron (here, the person commissioning the asset) is entitled to decide how much he/she is willing to pay for the work prior to commissioning its creation. Its a two-way street, in that neither side can force the other to charge less or pay more, at least, until a contract is signed.

 

I would see this as the biggest factor for commissions working/not working in the Doom community. I would assume most of the people here like the game and/or like making content for it, so I would be willing to bet that there is a pretty big pool of people willing to do work on a project for free. This devalues paid commission work, with the exception of those wanting specific mappers / spriters / coders to work on a project. I would also dare say that most aspects of Doom modding are rather accessible for those willing to learn, especially mapping. The work tends to be fun, which is why the people here do it as a hobby. Compare this to drafting a schematic for the middle tube of an expandable baton, or making an informational brochure for Yorkshire Terriers, or designing product packaging for a strobe light. No one is going to to do any of these for fun, they are dull jobs that serve a commercial purpose (which also tends to be where the money is).

 

All of this goes into what people are willing to pay, and how low of an amount artists would be willing to work for. For here, both of these seem like they would be very low.

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Posted (edited)

I've been thinking about this. As other people have stated, the cost for making a doom tc/mod would have to cover what you make OR what you would be happy to live with. 

 

So I have done some math on the subject and this is the cost for making a tc, with the following points:

  • All art work completed prior, ie textures and all sprites.
  • The basic level geometry has been planned on paper.
  • All music and sounds ready to go.
  • Project was for (G)Zdoom or 3dge

So for the extortionate fee which I would be looking for, I would carry out:

  • Coding the weapons, menus and enemies etc
  • 32 New maps.

So, I'm basing this on the fact that I will require 1 week of 40 hours to complete one map and say 20 hours to code everything (which is probably selling myself short), with an hourly rate of £15 sterling.

  • 15 x 40 = £600 (hourly rate x 40 hours per week)
  • 32 x 600 = £19,200 (total labour for mapping, 32 weeks @ £600)
  • 20 x 15 = £300 (coding)

So a total of = £19,500  After which you would have a fully code doom TC with 32 new maps in a beta status. Within a 32 week period.

 

For people that are not British I will convert the cost, so we can all laugh.

 

Euro = 22.336

USD = 22.356

INR  = 1,786,768.80 (Indian Rupee)

AUD = 35,091

 

And last but not least in Somali shilling = 15,213,579.05.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Mik5757 said:

I would assume most of the people here like the game and/or like making content for it, so I would be willing to bet that there is a pretty big pool of people willing to do work on a project for free.

Toss up a topic about asking for help with a project with very specific goals ( as opposed to the "single broad gimmick" or "hey make a map about anything" most community projects do ) with no intention of making anything yourself, and see how quickly you should reconsider ever entering a casino ever.

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4 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

Toss up a topic about asking for help with a project with very specific goals ( as opposed to the "single broad gimmick" or "hey make a map about anything" most community projects do ) with no intention of making anything yourself, and see how quickly you should reconsider every entering a casino ever.

 

Next time one of these topics crops up (and they do), the fine old folk of DoomWorld should ask what OP's budget is. If it's less than @Liberation's just-shy-of-£20k, it's a resounding nope. :P

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2 hours ago, ReX said:

As a matter or record, the only proof you need is that virtually no one is charging for DooM mods. This does not imply that mods are worth precisely zero; just that, currently, the price is zero.

 

Asking talented mappers what their mods are worth is not the same as declaring what the community would be willing to pay for them.

None of the doom mods you can download for free from the archive have been commissioned, for crying out loud. When's that important little detail gonna make it through? We're stuck here in merry-go-round-town, because you think the fact that people build what they like and choose to share it for free means that people will also work for somebody else and not ask for money. You have proven exactly nothing, let alone have any basis on which to declare anything.

 

2 hours ago, ReX said:

My principal declaration is that, ultimately, the market will dictate the price.

It doesn't in this case. If you want one person's labour, then "the market" is actually limited to exactly this one particular person, because you want that one person to do the job, not somebody else.

 

What are you gonna do when you want Slayer to play at your birthday party? Are you gonna tell them you're not paying 12,000$, because Lady Gaga shows up for 9,000$? Because that's what you think is how "the market" works, but it doesn't.

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5 minutes ago, Arctangent said:

Toss up a topic about asking for help with a project with very specific goals ( as opposed to the "single broad gimmick" or "hey make a map about anything" most community projects do ) with no intention of making anything yourself, and see how quickly you should reconsider ever entering a casino ever.

 

With the context of the rest of my post, I'll still stand by my original point that its unlikely that people are willing to pay much for commissioned mod work, with the exception of someone wanting very specific people to work on their project.

Everyone should reconsider ever entering a casino ever (other than for entertainment). The odds are purposely stacked against you. Going into a casino and expecting to profit is comparable to trying to make a living off of Doom mapping commissions. It's unlikely.

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39 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

 merry-go-round-town

This phrase has to be one of the best things I've read today. Maybe even this week.

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4 hours ago, ReX said:

As a matter or record, the only proof you need is that virtually no one is charging for DooM mods.

 

And that's where you're wrong. In the past, plenty of times we've seen somebody just scooping up dozens / hundreds of free mods, burning them to a CD/DVD and putting them up for sale as "exclusive content". And you're going to see an increase in that sort of behaviour once there's a normal in-community online market emerging for paid-for mods. Those scammers are not in it for the duration, but rather do a hit-and-run hiding behind anonymous handles, rake in the suckers, and after being banned will repeat it again under a different handle.

 

And again, no, that sort of behaviour isn't likely to come from somebody who is specifically commissioned to create said content. Because commissioning is, like I said before, a completely different beast.

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4 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

None of the doom mods you can download for free from the archive have been commissioned, for crying out loud. When's that important little detail gonna make it through? We're stuck here in merry-go-round-town, because you think the fact that people build what they like and choose to share it for free means that people will also work for somebody else and not ask for money. You have proven exactly nothing, let alone have any basis on which to declare anything.

 

It doesn't in this case. If you want one person's labour, then "the market" is actually limited to exactly this one particular person, because you want that one person to do the job, not somebody else.

 

What are you gonna do when you want Slayer to play at your birthday party? Are you gonna tell them you're not paying 12,000$, because Lady Gaga shows up for 9,000$? Because that's what you think is how "the market" works, but it doesn't.

It seems that you are unprepared to engage in civil discourse, so I'll be blunt: Your logic is not just circular, it's twisted like a pretzel. My exact words were: "As a matter or record, the only proof you need is that virtually no one is charging for DooM mods." My point all along has been that DooM mods have largely been free for quite a while. I don't see evidence of any significant amount of commerce involving DooM mods, whether the mods are freely available on idgames or otherwise. In other words, the lack of commissioned mods on idgames doesn't diminish the point that few mods appear to actually be making money. [Whether or not they deserve to make money is something I haven't disputed; I'll go one step further and say that I feel some of them do deserve to make money.]

 

Please note that I didn't once say that people should "work for somebody else and not ask for money". In fact, I have repeatedly said the opposite. To wit:

 

"You have every right to ask for the price that you deem appropriate."

"I am not against people marketing their talent. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it."

"If I approach you for a custom mod, or I approach esselfortium for custom music, you both have the absolute right to ask me for payment."

 

Therefore, if you have hopped aboard the "merry-go-round-town", it is because you have chosen to ignore what I have stated plainly.

 

Incidentally, I do know that the word "market" or "marketplace" in an economics context does not require throngs of people; it can consist of just two people. So, in this at least, you and I are in agreement. All it takes is a buyer and a seller to agree on the product/service and a price, and the transaction can proceed. If someone wants to commission a modder in the DooM community, that's fantastic. The modder will get remuneration, which might perhaps even be commensurate with her/his efforts and talents.

 

If I want Slayer or Lady Gaga to play at my birthday party I would certainly expect them to charge me a fee. Likewise, if I want someone to create a custom DooM mod for me, I wouldn't be surprised if they expected to be paid. However, if someone in the community were to offer the same service or product for free, I'm more likely to go with the "free" option if the standards of quality were acceptable to me. This doesn't mean I don't support the right of a modder to seek recompense for her/his efforts.

 

Dial down the hostility, please. You appear to be taking this personally, which was neither intended nor even implied.

 

2 hours ago, Mordeth said:

And that's where you're wrong. In the past, plenty of times we've seen somebody just scooping up dozens / hundreds of free mods, burning them to a CD/DVD and putting them up for sale as "exclusive content". And you're going to see an increase in that sort of behaviour once there's a normal in-community online market emerging for paid-for mods. Those scammers are not in it for the duration, but rather do a hit-and-run hiding behind anonymous handles, rake in the suckers, and after being banned will repeat it again under a different handle.

 

And again, no, that sort of behaviour isn't likely to come from somebody who is specifically commissioned to create said content. Because commissioning is, like I said before, a completely different beast.

I didn't say that people have never made money off other peoples' effort. [In fact, in one of my recent posts I specifically pointed out that it has happened in the early days of DooM.] I was referring to the current situation, where money doesn't appear to be changing hands for DooM mods.

 

I don't disagree that unscrupulous elements could get involved in the sale of work done by others. However, I was not debating the merits or demerits of commercial enterprise in DooM mods; merely, why I don't see commissioning of DooM mods being widely ready to take flight just yet.

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8 minutes ago, ReX said:

It seems that you are unprepared to engage in civil discourse, so I'll be blunt: Your logic is not just circular, it's twisted like a pretzel.

Turn your monitor on

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3 hours ago, Mordeth said:

And you're going to see an increase in that sort of behaviour once there's a normal in-community online market emerging for paid-for mods.

One way to discourage this sort of "piracy" is to do what many commercial companies are doing - lock the software and issue a product key to a genuine buyer. Not an easy technique for an amateur modder to implement, but some enterprising member of the community might be able to come up with a suitable alternative.

 

For commissioned works, of course, (as you said) piracy is not as great a threat.

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16 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

 

Throw in a flat 10K and I'll make Doom 2 every year for the next 10 years plus I'll convert to Mormonism and wear a really colourful bow tie.

That... is... tempting... 

Though you have to wear suspenders too.

I just need to hunt down like twenty other noisyvelvets to pool together with, and then we might have a deal.

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Damn... I caused more of an argument then what I expected O.O .

 

What I understand from all this it's that the fandom (or at least, this forum) seems pretty divided bout the subject. I'm no expert in how the market works, admitedly, but let me share my opinion;

 

I agree with those who says that mods for money shouldn't make it their main job; unless you can handle it,t, that would only cause you to have more requests then you can humanly satisfy in a reasonable time, and in the end what you like as a hobby would very likely become hateful. Of curse, it's their right to decide how much they want to be paid for even one map, what I mean is that they should still have fun while doing it, even if for money.

 

Personally, I think that a mod commission (maps or whatever else) it's something that should be done with the partecipation of both the commissioner and the modder. Of course, that's kinda utopistic since the payers have no right to do that, but for me it would be the ideal solution. Also, be sure that who makes the mod is one with actual experience into it, not a scammer or the like.

 

Sorry if you don't agree with what I wrote here, it's just my modest opinion and I respect yours too ^^.

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