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dsm

Lost Soul - biomechanoid or ghostly figure

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As most of you are aware, I tend to aggresively argue against this being the new lost soul in Doom 3.

I have no problem about this creature replacing the old lost souls as enemies, but it is the name label that people put on it.

I have already partially explained why I feel that there is no way that it could be called a "lost soul" in this thread, but I can follow up on that and say that to me, Doom is all about human marines against mythical demons from Hell - that is the very essence of the game. The story wouldn't appeal very much to me if it was just a gate opened into an alien dimension filled with demon-like monsters, no, what appeals to me that for a change, there was an original plot that not just opened a gateway into another dimension, but that this other dimension turned out to be Hell itself.

I usually dislike the views held by some people here that the demons are just hell-like aliens from a hell-like world, but I do NOT, I repeat, do NOT hold it against them - it's their own views and they can feel that way for all I care.
But keeping my views in mind, I don't like this notion that the bio-mechanoid head is a lost soul, because it seems to suggest that the Doom demons are indeed aliens rather than actual Hellish demons and there is no way that I could accept if id officially labeled the demons as regular alien monsters.

So, having given you my views, I hereby ask you why you feel that it could/should be called "lost soul".

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It's a fiery demonic head thing. The original Doom monster that most closely resembles it is the Lost Soul. That's why. Truth is, we don't know and we're not going to know until there's new screenshots or statements from id.

id could have never even implemented this for all we know.

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Okay...perhaps I have misused the term "Lost Soul." So, TO CLARIFY MY VIEW, let me explain. From what I've seen from the other updated designs, I figured, "Oh what the hell, I guess we'll have to settle for designs that don't quite match up with the originals." To that end, I've loosely referred to the cybernetic head as a "lost soul," only because that's what first comes to my mind when I see it. Yes, I realize that id actually calling the head a "soul" would be ridiculous, seeing as how it isn't a soul at all. As such, I won't refer to it as a "lost soul" any longer. Personally, I think the design for this particualar character is amazing, whatever title id may give it, and I can only look forward to seeing the designs for the remaining enemies.

However, I do have one lingering honest question, DSM, and I beg you for a PEACEFUL response.

You said, "I don't like this notion that the bio-mechanoid head is a lost soul, because it seems to suggest that the Doom demons are indeed aliens rather than actual Hellish demons." If memory serves, the design for the new Demon (http://www.doomworld.com/php/screenie.php?dir=/e32k2/&number=2) shows that at least half of its body is bio-mechanical. Wouldn't this also suggest the demons are merely aliens?

Again, this is an honest q, only put forth so that i may better understand your arguement.

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Prime said:
Okay...perhaps I have misused the term "Lost Soul." So, TO CLARIFY MY VIEW, let me explain. From what I've seen from the other updated designs, I figured, "Oh what the hell, I guess we'll have to settle for designs that don't quite match up with the originals." To that end, I've loosely referred to the cybernetic head as a "lost soul," only because that's what first comes to my mind when I see it. Yes, I realize that id actually calling the head a "soul" would be ridiculous, seeing as how it isn't a soul at all. As such, I won't refer to it as a "lost soul" any longer. Personally, I think the design for this particualar character is amazing, whatever title id may give it, and I can only look forward to seeing the designs for the remaining enemies.

That's what I always assume when I see people use the term "lost soul" about this creature - but I've seen that some people take it serious and believe that this thing is truly a lost soul. And then there's my paranoid fear that id would see it and just name the thing "lost soul" because people seem to be ok with the term.

However, I do have one lingering honest question, DSM, and I beg you for a PEACEFUL response.

You said, "I don't like this notion that the bio-mechanoid head is a lost soul, because it seems to suggest that the Doom demons are indeed aliens rather than actual Hellish demons." If memory serves, the design for the new Demon (http://www.doomworld.com/php/screenie.php?dir=/e32k2/&number=2) shows that at least half of its body is bio-mechanical. Wouldn't this also suggest the demons are merely aliens?

Again, this is an honest q, only put forth so that i may better understand your arguement.

Thank you for your openmindedness.

Well, the bio-mechanic demon is acceptable (I admittedly didn't like the fact that it was bio-mechanical at first), because it is an organic creature like all the doom demons - I know that the term "Demon" originally meant an evil spirit, but people have changed the meaning and turned it into a very often satanic, organic monster.

But "soul" still refers to an etheral spirit afaik (correct me if I am wrong), that's why I don't like to associate a cyborg head with the word "soul".

Lord FlatHead said:

id could have never even implemented this for all we know.

I do hope they implement it - it's too cool to be left out imo.

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hmmm...the concept art skull has never been seen as an actual in game model. right? i think the lost soul is the transparent skull from the beginning of the game play movie because two equal skull-like enemies in one game would be lame. i hope id will see this just as i do. it is like putting in 2 same looking weapons with just different projectiles and textures. this would suck. one skull is enough. i do not like those flying skulls anyway. they were boring in d1/2. the new ones could be better because of their transparency and their power to possess other creatures.

btw: i hope id will put in fights between enemies like in those old days...this was funny

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i really dont think that will be the replacment lost soul just creature that isent going to be fun to meet...............thats enless u have a double barrled sawed off muhahaha now as the part about the game plot stayin as demons from hell i totally agree if they fuck it up and make it aliens from some fukin planet or some shit like dat its officialy ruind! and i really dont think i will enjoy it. Anyway were gunna see all the goodies when it gets released i just hope it dosent take that horrible path like the dreaded duke nukem forever grrrrr iv been waitin for dat for 4 years for christ sakes

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. i do not like those flying skulls anyway. they were boring in d1/2.

Many people think this mechanical head will be new lost soul.not because of its look,but because of its (possibly) attack method.Its attack pattern might be charge-hit-stop and charge again.or it may turn to be kamikaze-like,chage-hit-explode.(a bit too unoriginal IMO)
When someone pointed out the transparent skull in that video.OK that looks like old lost soul with different attack method.
So what can be called "lost soul"?ghostly figure got my pick.but i have no problem att all if id want to call that mechanical head as lost soul.

Off-topic:Just finished RTCW yesterday.(yeah,finally!)the more I approach to the end,the more i like it.X-labs and Castle map was great.
Level design is ok.some are interesting and very atmospheric(?).Venom gun kick ass.my only complaint is , those undead was too boring to fight with (and waste of ammo).Overall, it was great.i hoped they put more type of X-creature.- my 2 cents

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I don't see the problem with a biomech Lost Soul. It is the translucent Lost Soul which I don't like - it is far too cheesy IMO. It worked in RTCW, but I don't think it's right for Doom 3.

Dark-tenshi said:

Just finished RTCW yesterday.(yeah,finally!)the more I approach to the end,the more i like it.X-labs and Castle map was great.

The X-Labs level was excellent - the tension created by the escaped lopers was particularly good.

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GS-1719 said:

I don't see the problem with a biomech Lost Soul. It is the translucent Lost Soul which I don't like - it is far too cheesy IMO. It worked in RTCW, but I don't think it's right for Doom 3.

What's so cheesy about it? It's a skull - more true to the original.
Why don't you think it'll work for Doom? Hell needs restless souls, and the ghostly skulls are perfect for that role - they look all the way like souls should look like - but I do think they should've made them more fiery, with burning, evil eyes in the eyesockets, that would not only have been more true to the originals, but made them far cooler as well.

And just because the cyborg head will have the same attack method doesn't automatically make it a lost soul - the name "lost soul" doesn't fit to a cyborg organism, it's totally out of place.

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dsm said:

What's so cheesy about it? It's a skull - more true to the original.
Why don't you think it'll work for Doom? Hell needs restless souls, and the ghostly skulls are perfect for that role - they look all the way like souls should look like - but I do think they should've made them more fiery, with burning, evil eyes in the eyesockets, that would not only have been more true to the originals, but made them far cooler as well.

And just because the cyborg head will have the same attack method doesn't automatically make it a lost soul - the name "lost soul" doesn't fit to a cyborg organism, it's totally out of place.


I don't know what a soul looks like, assuming it can be seen.

I think it is cheesy because translucent ghosts (or lost souls for that matter) remind me of bad horror films, and because they are completely unoriginal and hardly rare.

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It's obviously the replacement for the Lost Soul (cause of the color it reminds me of the DOOM beta Lost Loul, but it has flames like the normal one.) DOOM III, attempting to be more "realistic" evidently takes a more materialistic approach to the monsters, but by what I see from the artwork it is obvious that behind the monsters there's still an evil "demonic" force.

Oh, by the way...

LOST SOULS ARE NOT TRANSPARENT.

That is something Team TNT introduced in boom, deciding for some stupid reason that lost souls and energy or fire had to be transparent (heh, as if fire lets light from other sources through it... on the contrary, it blocks it.) It was just an option, although unfortunately set on by default... and in zdoom 1.22 or earlier you couldn't even turn it off!

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In the original Doom, the Lost Souls wern't see through, nor were the imp fireballs. It's the new look for a new game in the new millennium and a new generation of gamers.

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iv gotta take a side here (LOST SOUL) which cannot be made of metals hell it isent even organic its a spirit thats pissed off and looking for a host so it can get in there and beat the fuck outa you this is most likely another enemy due to the fact that it is organic and has (((metal))) parts its like somthing out of the terminator series now this is all just my opinion but that is so not a lost soul it cant be it would be retarted better yet not sain for it to be just because it makes abosoulutly no sense whatsoever

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Tyockell said:

iv gotta take a side here (LOST SOUL) which cannot be made of metals hell it isent even organic its a spirit thats pissed off and looking for a host so it can get in there and beat the fuck outa you this is most likely another enemy due to the fact that it is organic and has (((metal))) parts its like somthing out of the terminator series now this is all just my opinion but that is so not a lost soul it cant be it would be retarted better yet not sain for it to be just because it makes abosoulutly no sense whatsoever

My thoughts exactly.

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the problem with the transparent lost soul.. is you cant kill it.. at least.. I think so.. because it goes straight troug walls ets.. so bullets wont stop it.. and the same goes for rockets and the shotguns, and rockets.. ahhwell.. I thought the metal head was the new cacodemon.. call me crazy..

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HAMMER-STROKE said:

the problem with the transparent lost soul.. is you cant kill it.. at least.. I think so.. because it goes straight troug walls ets.. so bullets wont stop it.. and the same goes for rockets and the shotguns, and rockets.. ahhwell..

Exactly, that's why I belive that the lost soul has been given a different role in Doom - not the role as an enemy, but rather as an excuse for why people get possessed. We might even see 'em later as "missiles" launched at the player that you'll have to dodge (kinda like the revenants homing missiles).
I believe that the biomechanoid heads have been thrown in as substitute enemy for the old lost souls (id want the game to be as much like the originals as possible). Hey, something just occurred to me! We have long been worried about id's statement about Doom 3 having "some" of the old monsters - my bet would be that a monster that they leave out would be the original, "organic" lost soul from the old Doom (because the new one is just a ghost and the biomechanoid is not the lost soul - not exactly the same old lost soul). Hey, I'm just trying to keep up my own spirits here :-)

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Heh. Are you guys talking about DOOM (old and new) or something else? It's hard to tell and seems to be more like the latter. Lost souls aren't incorporeal nor translucent, nor do they try to possess people (I don't think you should overwork your imaginations like that, your heads might explode, spawning a Lost Soul or two in the process.) They are just big floating demonic skulls that attack by goring with their horns. Why they are shaped like that only Hell knows. The name "Lost Soul" probably means that this is what humans can become if killed by hellspawn or something. At least this is the interpretation used by Leo Martin Lim in Dooms day of UAC, as he reveals the missing marines have become Lost Souls.

In DOOM III the monsters are pretty much the same as in DOOM, but the art style (and probably the story, we'll see) explains the whys and hows a bit more. So even if this monster were still the result of the enslavement of a hapless human who found his way into Hell, the process of "making" a Lost Soul might be revealed or explained somehow: mixing supernatural power with technology to produce a more believable Lost Soul.

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myk said:
Heh. Are you guys talking about DOOM (old and new) or something else? It's hard to tell and seems to be more like the latter. Lost souls aren't incorporeal nor translucent, nor do they try to possess people (I don't think you should overwork your imaginations like that, your heads might explode, spawning a Lost Soul or two in the process.) They are just big floating demonic skulls that attack by goring with their horns. Why they are shaped like that only Hell knows. The name "Lost Soul" probably means that this is what humans can become if killed by hellspawn or something. At least this is the interpretation used by Leo Martin Lim in UAC Dead, as he reveals the missing marines have become Lost Souls.

The old name lost soul was just given to them because it seemed as a personification of them as the damned souls of Hell.
In Doom 3, id have clearly done more to make their names make sense - that's why we see ghostly transparent skulls in Doom 3 that look suspiciously similar to the old lost souls (and you gotta admit, these skulls look a lot more like the old lost souls than this parasite head)

In DOOM III the monsters are pretty much the same as in DOOM, but the art style (and probably the story, we'll see) explains the whys and hows a bit more. So even if this monster were still the result of the enslavement of a hapless human who found his way into Hell, the process of "making" a Lost Soul might be revealed or explained somehow: mixing supernatural power with technology to produce a more believable Lost Soul.

It's quite simple - the lost souls in Doom 3 are some of the tortured souls of the damned. They have become so tortured and warped by the will of Hell that they have taken the ghostly form of floating skulls that just blindly race around, looking for a body to take possession of in order to carry out the evil will of Hell - these are like dead souls, tortured and enraged at everything living.
At least, that's my interpretation. I don't think that lost souls are "made" as such, they are what people become after their souls have burned long enough in Hell.

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Hmm. I still find it hard to believe that in DOOM III the monsters will be "mythical demons." Lovecraft, for instance, had a theory that fiction and horror in the modern world should go along the lines of science, and not of myth. The general style in DOOM III, and the fact that the artists obviously read that author make me think id is taking that direction.

Can you point me to a screenshot of one of the ghostly skulls?

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i like the new design onf the lost soul =) it makes it up to date.. the pink demon also is half biomechanical in DOOM III.

Or there are two kinds of Lost Souls the old one and the new one ;).. ho knows ;)


BTW... are there any gameplay pictures of Doom III?

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Hicks said:

BTW... are there any gameplay pictures of Doom III?


No. (lie) And I couldn't tell you where to acquire them if they existed. (lie)

I'm with dsm on this... from the first time I saw those translucent skulls I thought of lost souls... and when I saw the picture of the rocket head thing, I was most un-impressed. Not by the artwork, the artwork is fukn awesome, but by the concept.

Eh, I don't think there are any images of the translucent fiery skulls we are talking about... but I could take one or two in a couple of days... Not right now because I barbecued my CPU last thursday, and am still waiting on a replacement, so can't get onto my own PC.

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myk said:

Hmm. I still find it hard to believe that in DOOM III the monsters will be "mythical demons." Lovecraft, for instance, had a theory that fiction and horror in the modern world should go along the lines of science, and not of myth. The general style in DOOM III, and the fact that the artists obviously read that author make me think id is taking that direction.

Can you point me to a screenshot of one of the ghostly skulls?


well if they arnt "mythical demons" then im sorry to say but its not doom lol its a fukin alien/preditor movie

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the concept of marines fighting creatures from hell that go above your imagintion are alot more cooler then

marines fighting ugly alien like creatures that look like strogg

I like the disigns.. but I dont think the doom factor is totally immersed into the disigns
A cool burned pentagram or some hellisch symbol burned into the hellknight's chest would roxx
a totally bloody pinky demon with shotwounds all over the place would look alot cooler then the pinky in doom 3 we saw.. but.. what can we do

still I am fairly happy with what came out of the id minds.. only i hoped fore something else.. something more mythical an more chaotic and EVIL

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myk said:

Hmm. I still find it hard to believe that in DOOM III the monsters will be "mythical demons." Lovecraft, for instance, had a theory that fiction and horror in the modern world should go along the lines of science, and not of myth. The general style in DOOM III, and the fact that the artists obviously read that author make me think id is taking that direction.

Can you point me to a screenshot of one of the ghostly skulls?

The whole fucking point of Doom is that you're fighting Hellspawn - that's what makes the concept so unbelievably cool.

The whole idea that humans open up a door to an alien dismension is used before, but the whole idea that Hell lies in another dimension (instead of beneath the earth) and that humanity messes with the interdimensional barriers and accidentally open a doorway to hell itself is awesome. Much better than the tried and true idea of humans vs aliens - we've seen that a thousand times before. The human vs aliens is seen countless times before, and is a bit unfair because it always assumes that outsiders (aliens) are evil - Doom's theme is much better because demons ARE definitely evil (if they existed that is), so evil that they are evil incarnate, so what is more satisfying than to dish out some pain to evil itself?

The great thing about it is that we see demons as a myth, but what if the myths came true? It's certainly not less believable than space aliens.
Why the Hell do you think id originally referred to them as "demons" in Doom 1?

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There's more than just the stereotyes of E.T.s or medieval-type demons, and that is what I'm talking about. It is evident that they are taking from both these sources; science fiction and classic gothic/fantasy horror. But if they are planning to give their story any depth it is more likely that they will give a more modern touch to it, and that means blurring the boundaries between what's thinkable and fiction. Demons in the christian sense don't fit well with really macabre and ominous horror, instead a less understandable and less caring evil force would be more fitting. That's the quality the original Alien had that it's sequels lost, the beast was in a way flesh and blood, but at the same time it had something god-like about it.

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I'm almost positive that 'Doom' inspired 'Event Horizon', with it's tale of interdimensional gateways creating a passage to Hell.

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It could have, though Event Horizon could have taken that from other earlier sources as well, such as Lovecraft's short novel At the mountains of madness (the probable most direct or at least most important influence), the old movie Black Hole in which the black hole ends up being like hell, taking the bad guy (ship captain) with it, and Alien, which is pretty much like Event Horizon but with a "hell" that is more metaphorical or allegorical.

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Ultimate Demon said:

What is Hellspawn?

Hellspawn = terrors spawned by Hell - simple.
Doom's demons aren't medieval types of demons - they are the modern interpretation of demons.

Personally, the idea of kicking some demonic butt really appeals to me, I'm tired of hunting those poor aliens :-P

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