[GEC] Master Edition PSX Doom for the PlayStation. Beta 4 Released [11/16/2022]

[Dark Pulse]

48 minutes ago, Terraformer9x said:

I second what @Lollie said.

 

That is inexcusably lame if that's the case. I'd even go as far as to argue what's even the point of this project then if there isn't plans to reincorporate them with the commercial maps.

To be clear on this, only the maps, as far as I know, will be excluded. Erick has said essentially they are "out of scope" in the sense that it's supposed to be a project about the cut levels, not the original ones.

Work on restoring the entities, however, is ongoing.

 

 

There are some other notable changes under the hood. Maps can be more complex, vertical texture tiling is fixed, obviously some cut enemies are being restored, two-color wall support is added in, analog control support is added in, etc.

 

Essentially, the custom maps would thus "stand out" compared to the originals, forcing the originals to basically all be adjusted and tweaked to get the same level of polish.

 

We may, however, include additional, exclusive maps to also make up for some of this. Don't quote me on that, but I (and a few of the other mappers) would like to.

[Terraformer9x]

3 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

To be clear on this, only the maps, as far as I know, will be excluded. Erick has said essentially they are "out of scope" in the sense that it's supposed to be a project about the cut levels, not the original ones.

 

There are some other notable changes under the hood. Maps can be more complex, vertical texture tiling is fixed, obviously some cut enemies are being restored, two-color wall support is added in, analog control support is added in, etc.

 

Essentially, the custom maps would thus "stand out" compared to the originals, forcing the originals to basically all be adjusted and tweaked to get the same level of polish.

 

We may, however, include additional, exclusive maps to also make up for some of this. Don't quote me on that, but I (and a few of the other mappers) would like to.

 

Then in my honest opinion, you guys are missing out on an absolutely golden opportunity to make probably the most definitive version of PSX Doom by excluding the original levels big time. As said before, it doesn't make sense why this project is called "Master Edition" since that name implies improvements to the original game. The title is definitely very misleading.

[Erick194]

Hello @Terraformer9x, my goal from the beginning is to incorporate the commercial levels, but certainly there are people who do not like the idea too much, but do not worry once the master edition is finished, there will be an extra version after the final version of the master edition that will include everything that We worked here and the commercial maps, who would not like to play the original levels with mouse support and analog control ?, I would like to 😉.

[Dexiaz]

Much thanks for clarification! I hope this question is closed for everyone.

[Terraformer9x]

6 hours ago, Erick194 said:

Hello @Terraformer9x, my goal from the beginning is to incorporate the commercial levels, but certainly there are people who do not like the idea too much, but do not worry once the master edition is finished, there will be an extra version after the final version of the master edition that will include everything that We worked here and the commercial maps, who would not like to play the original levels with mouse support and analog control ?, I would like to 😉.

 

Thank you very much for the clarification! That does make a lot more sense to release a version with just the cut maps and then eventually merge them with the commercial maps.

[Gerardo194]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:14 PM, Terraformer9x said:

This was probably asked before but is there plans to port this project, once complete, to DZDoom?

Hello and salutatons!!! Please do not accept any fake information from both Dark Pulse and Impboy. They always like to raise fake news about our projects when even they do not chat with us. 

 

The Master Edition for PSXDoom will be added to DZDoom as well. My brothers and I have already discussed this internally. 

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, Gerardo194 said:

Hello and salutatons!!! Please do not accept any fake information from both Dark Pulse and Impboy. They always like to raise fake news about our projects when even they do not chat with us. 

 

The Master Edition for PSXDoom will be added to DZDoom as well. My brothers and I have already discussed this internally. 

Well gee, it'd be a lot less "fake" if we'd actually be informed of what your guys' plans are and what you want to do, instead of having to guess.

 

Impboy is almost always on Discord. I'm idling on it 24/7. Don't give me that bullshit about how we don't chat with you. We're a message away at almost any time. We sit in the Discord. You don't.

 

 

Who's there? Why, we are. Who isn't? Not you! Gee, I wonder why the information is "fake." Maybe because we have no fucking clue what you guys are doing when you keep it to yourselves? Erick will at least keep us informed if we ask him something directly; you barely talk with us and Chris is virtually a ghost.

 

I'm going to hope you meant "mistaken information" because I know English isn't your first languages, and I'm betting that something just got lost in translation. I can forgive you if so, but saying that we're outright LYING is fucking bullshit, Gerardo. We're not fucking trying to lie here, we're trying to communicate what we think you guys plan for and are doing. Sorry if we don't get every little thing right.

 

If you want us to stop giving "fake information," maybe get on Discord once in a fucking while, talk with us a little more, and be available in general for us to ask questions, so that we know what the hell you're doing and what your plans are. Fake information will sure go down then!

 

Otherwise, you can do your own damn PR and wiki updates and try to explain to people why there hasn't been a new release in almost a year and a half at this point.

 

Thanks for talking to either of us before posting that, by the way. If you'd actually like to, you know, talk to me man-to-man, you know where to find me.

 

Hint: I've mentioned it several times in this post and even took a picture of it.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Dark Pulse

[MajorRawne]

I must provide a thruppence of support for previous posters who suggested you incorporate the missing content into a complete edition of PSX Doom. Bear in mind that arguably the best maps already made it into the official PSX Doom - this is subjective, but I rarely play one of the "cut/rejected" maps and think "OMG, if only this had been in Playstation Doom it would have been so much better!"

 

Look at it this way: what you're achieving is a dream for all PSX Doom fans, but on the other hand, you are planning to release a megawad made up of maps like Bad Dream, Titan Manor, The Chasm and Betray.

 

EDIT: When I wrote this post, the fragging thread wasn't displaying properly, so I didn't realise this had been addressed.

Edited July 9, 2021 by MajorRawne

[riderr3]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:31 AM, Erick194 said:

Hello @Terraformer9x, my goal from the beginning is to incorporate the commercial levels, but certainly there are people who do not like the idea too much, but do not worry once the master edition is finished, there will be an extra version after the final version of the master edition that will include everything that

 

Yeah and may be call it like DEFINITIVE edition or something like that 😉 I agree that some people played a lot of normal PSXDoom and Final, and they want to play Master Edition with only new levels (without replaying old ones) as stand alone game.

 

If you really expect to include an exclusive episode, I am in the subject for creating a map or maybe even few. Do not count as advertisement, but for the last decade I made 100+ maps for the Doom and it's derivatives.

[Erick194]

1 hour ago, riderr3 said:

last decade I made 100+ maps for the Doom

That's too many maps, great. 😉👍

[Kroc]

Agreed with @Lollie; it should be the whole experience _but_ for players that have already played PSX Doom in the past a separate release could be made of just the cut content, or a separate selectable "game"/"episode" that contains only the cut content.

[Lollie]

20 hours ago, Kroc said:

a separate selectable "game"/"episode" that contains only the cut content

This sounds like the most ideal solution, if it's possible to set up, since it would mean there's only one "Master Edition" release to manage.

 

You could choose whether you want the "Master Edition" playlist to play all the levels (old & new, mixed together), or the "New Levels Only" to only play the new additions. (And maybe, "Original Doom" to only play the old levels, with the new engine features + fixes?)

 

...That said, if the original maps were to be included, someone would want to fix some of the bugs in the original release. Compared to the new level additions, bug fixes would be much smaller changes, but it would still require time to fix + test.

(a few bugs have been reported in the PsyDoom thread, for example: [one] and [two])

Edited July 11, 2021 by Lollie

[Impboy4]

8 hours ago, Lollie said:

...That said, if the original maps were to be included, someone would want to fix some of the bugs in the original release. Compared to the new level additions, bug fixes would be much smaller changes, but it would still require time to fix + test.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.  I am still very against adding the commercial levels with the cut levels simply because of the fact that the latter uses features the former lacked.

If people really want to add the commercials with the cut levels, they can do it themselves when the tools of the final product are released.

[Dark Pulse]

10 hours ago, Lollie said:

This sounds like the most ideal solution, if it's possible to set up, since it would mean there's only one "Master Edition" release to manage.

 

You could choose whether you want the "Master Edition" playlist to play all the levels (old & new, mixed together), or the "New Levels Only" to only play the new additions. (And maybe, "Original Doom" to only play the old levels, with the new engine features + fixes?)

Might not be a bad idea in the end; albeit it'd also mean that there's technically a heck of a lot of duplication on the disc. (To be fair, I still doubt even with that we'd use up all the CD's Room.)

 

Though having "Original Doom" as an option would be mostly redundant - obviously some of the features (analog support) would work in all maps, but others (increased LEAFS limit, two-color wall texturing) would actually need entirely new/modified maps to work. About the only other feature I can think of that would "just work" would be the vertical tiling fixes, and there's only a handful of areas in PSX Doom where levels had individual walls that got over 256 high - the converters were well aware of the limitation.

 

10 hours ago, Lollie said:

...That said, if the original maps were to be included, someone would want to fix some of the bugs in the original release. Compared to the new level additions, bug fixes would be much smaller changes, but it would still require time to fix + test.

(a few bugs have been reported in the PsyDoom thread, for example: [one] and [two])

I wouldn't mind going over and enhancing the originals, myself, so I'd be down for fixing the maps up. But that call is GEC's to make, not mine.

[Erick194]

2 hours ago, Impboy4 said:

that's not going to happen.

I just have to say that you can't say it's going to be done or not, I know you don't like the idea of adding the trading tiers, but in the end the things on the project are decided by me. And it will be the most correct and convenient decision for the project.

[Impboy4]

1 hour ago, Erick194 said:

I just have to say that you can't say it's going to be done or not, I know you don't like the idea of adding the trading tiers, but in the end the things on the project are decided by me. And it will be the most correct and convenient decision for the project.

I know, and I'm sorry. I just don't really like inconsistency between our work and the ones Williams/Midway has done.  If we are going this route, let us touch up the commercial maps so they don't look out of place.

[Terraformer9x]

I doubt the newer maps will really stand out much compared to the commercial maps? The only thing I can think of in terms of polishing them is restoring entities where they belong like the Archvile in 'O' of Destruction for Doom 2.

[Impboy4]

18 minutes ago, Terraformer9x said:

I doubt the newer maps will really stand out much compared to the commercial maps? The only thing I can think of in terms of polishing them is restoring entities where they belong like the Archvile in 'O' of Destruction for Doom 2.

They do stand out from a technical standpoint because OG PSX Doom doesn't have the features the ME PSX Doom has. It's not as simple to re-add the Archvile in O' of Destruction and expecting it to work because the OG format doesn't recognize the new features and will either not show them or crash. They have to be converted to the new ME format first.

Even then, ME format is still limited in memory and the Archvile has a bigger memory footprint than the Mancubus (more sprites = more memory) so you'd have to cut out one or more monster types to fit him in.

[riderr3]

14 hours ago, Lollie said:

This sounds like the most ideal solution, if it's possible to set up, since it would mean there's only one "Master Edition" release to manage.

 

You could choose whether you want the "Master Edition" playlist to play all the levels (old & new, mixed together), or the "New Levels Only" to only play the new additions. (And maybe, "Original Doom" to only play the old levels, with the new engine features + fixes?)

 

Even this way, this will postpone the release of the final version of the current project. People will wait another year when original maps will be polished and configured to work with new maps without troubles.

 

It is important to note that at the request of the GEC I made a section for a secret exit on They Will Repent, which fits quite well into the level atmosphere. And what, now I have to delete this, to correspond the sequence of levels corresponded to the PC version, in the case of returning original maps from PSX Doom? (And even after compiling old and new maps for Definitive Edition, it's better to play this episodes separately like in PSXDoom TC). It is better not to overload GEC, because they have so many projects, and the community can independently compile Definitive Edition when GEC will upload out all the necessary tools after Master Edition is done.

 

The rational solution here is finish the Master Edition first, and later go to new projects, including compiling new and old maps. Too many contradictions accumulated from the very beginning of this project, ranging from the name of the project and ending with the discussion that what it will containing.

 

Also what about a creating of XDELTA patch for usual PSX Doom/Final to add features and fixes from Master Edition? (such as NM Skill, VRAM Cheat, analog support as well as corrections related to optimization, corrections of animation, textures and the rest which I did not mention). Such a patch will be suitable for those who will play Master Edition and the usual PSX Doom/Final separately.

 

 

2 hours ago, Terraformer9x said:

I doubt the newer maps will really stand out much compared to the commercial maps? The only thing I can think of in terms of polishing them is restoring entities where they belong like the Archvile in 'O' of Destruction for Doom 2.

This is only the tip of the iceberg... Such discussions are formed more and more questions than answers.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by riderr3

[Dark Pulse]

23 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

The rational solution here is finish the Master Edition first, and later go to new projects, including compiling new and old maps. Too many contradictions accumulated from the very beginning of this project, ranging from the name of the project and ending with the discussion that what it will containing.

Pretty sure they intend to finish the Master Edition maps first and then do the combined release. It'd be silly to do it any other way.

 

23 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

Also what about a creating of XDELTA patch for usual PSX Doom/Final to add features and fixes from Master Edition? (such as NM Skill, VRAM Cheat, FPS Counter as well as corrections related to optimization, corrections of animation, textures and the rest which I did not mention). Such a patch will be suitable for those who will play Master Edition and the usual PSX Doom/Final separately.

That would be pretty easy to do, yeah. At least, I know how to do them. To legally distribute the project we'd need to do it as an XDELTA or something similar anyway, something I've brought up to Erick, but for these betas it's fine for now.

[riderr3]

Moreover, I'm not sure what the point is to return Arch-Viles in old PSX Doom/Final maps. As well, it is controversial to change the sequence of classic PSX levels to which players have accustomed for many years (again as example how did in PSXDOOM TC and Lost Levels).

 

But on another side, fixing bugs on old PSX maps is useful (for Definitive Edition or for patch), for example:

-Stucked baron on Command Center

-Stucked imps on Deepest Reaches

-Inaccessible section on The Death Domain

-Some few other mapping related bugs that are mentioned on DoomWiki, pay attention to them

 

In order not to disturb the ecosystem of old PSX maps, it is advisable to use Keens, WolfSS and Arch-Viles on some maps in the Master Edition (hint at Hunted and Wolf3d maps), especially for possible new exclusive episode by the mappers, which will be useful to fill the gaps, as well reveal the potential of those improvements that were introduced by GEC.

Edited July 11, 2021 by riderr3

[Lollie]

10 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Might not be a bad idea in the end; albeit it'd also mean that there's technically a heck of a lot of duplication on the disc. (To be fair, I still doubt even with that we'd use up all the CD's Room.)

Does data need to be duplicated? It doesn't seem unreasonable to introduce a way to tell Doom, "We're playing New Levels Only, so here is the list of levels that we want to play," and then cherry-pick levels from the complete WAD. For example, a set of MAPINFO lumps for PSX Doom, where each one has a different list of "next map" definitions, depending on what playlist is selected.

 

;"Complete" MAPINFO1
map MAP13 "Downtown"
{
	levelnum = 13
	next = "MAP14"
}

;"New Levels Only" MAPINFO2
map MAP13 "Downtown"
{
	levelnum = 13
	next = "MAP15"
}

 

I understand though, this would require a new feature that isn't native to Doom, let alone PSX Doom, and so it's obviously easier said than done. I don't know the inner workings of PSX Doom or what it's capable of, how the current "game select" feature works, etc. I'm just spitballing ideas here.

 

---

 

12 hours ago, Impboy4 said:

I am still very against adding the commercial levels with the cut levels simply because of the fact that the latter uses features the former lacked.

What features, specifically?

 

As far as I've seen, the whole point of the project was to convert the cut levels so that they'd fit the style and limits of PSX Doom. The cut levels are still reduced from their original PC form. Players aren't going to be bothered that some of the new levels have higher ceilings, or that some of the new levels have more detail than the commercial levels.

 

If the problem is that the new levels still look better than the old levels after being chopped down, well. That's probably because the map team here has more experience (and time) than the Jaguar team did when they were chopping maps down to size — maps that ended up getting used across many different console ports, including PSX Doom. In comparison, this project doesn't have the time constraints of a commercial release, and only needs to worry about what PSX Doom can handle.

 

Like, what else can people say? "Oops, these levels don't look simple enough. They look better than the old commercial levels. They need to stop looking so good." Y'know? lol

 

The commercial levels would still benefit from the new engine features and fixes, without needing to touch them up at all. PSX Doom didn't have support for the PSX Mouse or analog controls, so that alone would be a huge step up for the commercial levels. Any optimizations made in the GEC version of PSX Doom also carry across, so the commercial levels would run better.

 

---

 

6 hours ago, riderr3 said:

Even this way, this will postpone the release of the final version of the current project. People will wait another year when original maps will be polished and configured to work with new maps without troubles.

The originals shouldn't need to be polished though, is the thing. Not if the map team has done their best to convert the cut levels to suit PSX Doom. At the very most, the originals could use some bug fixes, like the Baron of Hell stuck in the ceiling of a pillar in Command Center on Ultra Violence, but the changes required would be minimal in comparison. They're also not critical — fixes would be nice to have, but PSX Doom has survived as-is for 25 years.

 

6 hours ago, riderr3 said:

It is important to note that at the request of the GEC I made a section for a secret exit on They Will Repent, which fits quite well into the level atmosphere. And what, now I have to delete this, to correspond the sequence of levels corresponded to the PC version, in the case of returning original maps from PSX Doom?

Does your secret exit in "They Will Repent" lead to "E4M9: Fear", or to another new map at least? Because as long as the secret map is also a new addition, TWR would always have the same secret map to exit to. Either way, no-one is asking for a strictly-PC set of levels, so: No, you wouldn't have to delete anything. It'd probably mean that the secret map after TWR would lead to a different map, depending on what maps are available.

 

Ultimately, *how* the Master Edition's levels and the commercial levels get woven together isn't a big deal. There's plenty of options, and it sounds like it will happen in the end either way.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Lollie : spelling!

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, Lollie said:

Does data need to be duplicated? It doesn't seem unreasonable to introdce a way to tell Doom, "We're playing New Levels Only, so here is the list of levels that we want to play," and then cherry-pick levels from the complete WAD. For example, a set of MAPINFO lumps for PSX Doom, where each one has a different list of "next map" definitions, depending on what playlist is selected.

That actually reminded me, I do think Erick is doing some sort of MAPINFO-style lump for the Master Edition. In that case it might be a heck of a lot easier and not require duplication of maps.

[Nikoka]

Hi everyone😁
It's been some time since I've visited this thread and I've arrived here full of hope and enthusiasm.
I expected to find ready a Master Edition (psx iso) of 600mb and more, full of old and new Doom maps, and instead I note with regret that not even a step forward has been made; too bad!!!....
Hehe....I'm joking, of course, although with a grain of truth. I was ready to follow the work and the new developments of the project but unfortunately everything has stalled again.
So I'll be in touch a little later, waiting for the return of life around here: in the meantime I just bump this thread, perhaps soliciting the intervention of someone interested in the subject...

Greetings, from a user who values and appreciates your commitment and dedication.😉

[VGA]

Let's GOOOOO

 

 

[riderr3]

From good news: I took my hands on the modded Japanese model PS1 SCPH-7000, including the original gray Dualshock. It will be interesting to test added analog control.

[Muusi]

Oh wow i didn't even notice all this stuff about analog controls. Any update the standalone xdelta(?) patch for OG PSX Doom? Would it be even remotely possible to add rumble support? I'm absolutely not expecting it to be a thing ever but i like to daydream. 

[OpenRift]

How do I run this in PsyDoom? I'm new to the port can't seem to figure it out.

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, OpenRift said:

How do I run this in PsyDoom? I'm new to the port can't seem to figure it out.

https://github.com/BodbDearg/PsyDoom/blob/master/docs/PsyDoom Modding Overview.md

[OpenRift]

34 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

https://github.com/BodbDearg/PsyDoom/blob/master/docs/PsyDoom Modding Overview.md

Uh... so do I need to extract the contents of the BIN/CUE files and run the -datadir parameter?