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Erick194

[GEC] Master Edition PSX Doom for the PlayStation. 1/10/2019 (Beta 3 Release Now!, Are You Ready For More Action?)

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Guys, are you really interested in making new levels for this project? Since you said you guys don't want to see the levels from PSXDoom and Final Doom included in it. I had the idea of how it could be the UD and D2 episodes complete, but as Riderr3 said before, we could leave it for another complete version...

 

@Job came up with the idea of making a new episode called "Into The Darkness" you could decide if it could be a 9 levels episode or more. Let's suppose we already have two levels for it. the two Romero's maps. What do you think?

 

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I've got level designs from years ago sketched out in a folder of graph paper. They're kind of simplistic, but that's perfect for the PSX limitations, and honestly it was actually kind of what I was envisioning when I made them all those years ago.

 

I'd like to take a stab at one or two, if nothing else. 

 

That said, I definitely think Doom 2 and Final Doom should be complete for the project. Let the conversions be completed without adding any original maps from the team, and let the 100% original maps from the team be their own "episode."

 

This way, we get the best of both worlds - all the originals got converted, and there's a fresh new PSX Doom experience from the same team of mappers/converters.

 

There's also the possibility of extending the Master Levels from authors in them, don't forget. There's definitely room for more Dr. Sleep and so on, in my opinion.

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Did someone say at some point that Dr Sleep has passed away? That was always my favourite Internet user name, so evocative, and Crossing Acheron which I believe is a Dr Sleep level is incredible with the PSX Toxin Refinery music to it. Without doubt, his were some of the best levels in PSX Final Doom, well in all of Doom! Vesperas was amazing. That had the Toxin Refinery music too. Odd coincidence.

 

If you do decide to go down the route of creating a new set of maps, you need the bloke who did this. That was without a doubt one of the great Doom wads of our time. Although of course, there is no way those maps would run on the real PSX. It would be nice to see what he could come up with.

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5 hours ago, CoTeCiO said:

I don't know if PSX Doom likes to have sky on floor flats, but I assume it works, since it does on vanilla.


Applying any sky flat on floor wouldn't work, it's mentioned in the thread previously. But with floor transparency it's possible to see sky on floor, BUT the main problem is the sky will not tiling and most times you see blackness instead of sky. If there was a possibility or a hack that could allow the sky to repeat in the lower part of screen.

Current test build already have fully transparent flat F_BLANK for special purposes.

 

2 hours ago, Gerardo194 said:

 

@Job came up with the idea of making a new episode called "Into The Darkness" you could decide if it could be a 9 levels episode or more. Let's suppose we already have two levels for it. the two Romero's maps. What do you think?

 

 


If you have free space for one more episode with about 9-11 maps, I think it's good idea, because Phobos Mission Control and Tech Gone Bad is actually usual PWAD maps and not as part of some IWAD. Also Doom1 part will have too much secret maps if Romero maps will added. I think Romero maps is supposed to be secret, but in bonus episode it would be as usual maps. And we already have Super Shotgun on D1 Sewers, I like the idea from PSX Doom where you can find SSG on secret map of Doom1. Phobos Mission Control also have SSG.

Especially the fact I'm a long time mapper, I can contribute a map or even two (don't count for advertising, but I’ve released two megawads and also many community maps). Some tricks which I not realized in stock maps possible to implement in custom map and it would be as a showcase and example for other people. Also I like if the bonus episode will use Final Doom engine, so we can use some extra features and FD textures. I don't think that E1M4B/E1M8B will suffer.

 

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

I've got level designs from years ago sketched out in a folder of graph paper. They're kind of simplistic, but that's perfect for the PSX limitations, and honestly it was actually kind of what I was envisioning when I made them all those years ago.


Fun fact, but I still have a pair of paper sketches from 1999 in my storage room. And moreover, in those years I made sketches of actual PSX Doom maps, with the hope of making such maps in the future (with NM Demons, hooks and without arch-viles). I may use parts of layout in my map.

 

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

There's also the possibility of extending the Master Levels from authors in them, don't forget. There's definitely room for more Dr. Sleep and so on, in my opinion.


I will say a simple reason: the choosing of these maps can cause controversy between the GEC and the other participants. Because the authors of Master Levels have released many decent stand-alone maps, and there will be debates about which one to choose. And again, these maps are not included in any IWAD, and not being scheduled at PSX Final Doom release, except a Doom2 MAP14 Homage, which planned to be included to Final Doom, but cancelled. This does not mean that I reject this option, I just want to come to a compromise.

Currently ML part have 9 maps. I can assume basically this is mostly enough for a separate episode, only need to make a secret exit for Doom2 MAP14 Homage (need a new name based on Inmost Dens, but not an Innermost Dens, because it will repeat Lost Levels TC).

So here is 3 variants for Master Levels of Master Edition (sorry for the pun), I accepting any of this variants but in the third variant needs to voting and comprehension:

1) Stay ML as is, 9-map episode even it's not too much. Also the sequence of maps can be changed, as it was on ML from PSX Final Doom. I think this is the simplest option that will not take much time to coordinate/compiling.

2) If we have 21 maps on TNT part, the rest 9 maps from ML can be added as sub-episode of Master-TNT. You will choose them like in PSX Doom menu between "Ultimate Doom" and "Doom 2". Also GEC can made them separated (but in one menu), for example, after ML there will be a text intermission and after that exit to the menu where you can choose ML maps or TNT. And after TNT, monster cast will be shown.

3) Making a voting and debating about adding another maps from the creators of Master Levels. I don't think that we will lose much if we do not include these maps, because the Master Edition already has enough maps. But they need to be chosen carefully, given the complexity, weapon progression, bugs, features and other aspects. This will undoubtedly prolong the development of the Master Edition, given that we will already plan to create episode with bonus maps.
 

Edited by riderr3

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39 minutes ago, MajorRawne said:

Did someone say at some point that Dr Sleep has passed away? That was always my favourite Internet user name, so evocative, and Crossing Acheron which I believe is a Dr Sleep level is incredible with the PSX Toxin Refinery music to it. Without doubt, his were some of the best levels in PSX Final Doom, well in all of Doom! Vesperas was amazing. That had the Toxin Refinery music too. Odd coincidence.

Dr. Sleep passed away about a year ago from pneumonia, yes. Ironically they could've added his E4M7 to Ultimate Doom, but for some reason, didn't. I know I wouldn't mind converting a few of his maps; I always liked his style.

39 minutes ago, MajorRawne said:

If you do decide to go down the route of creating a new set of maps, you need the bloke who did this. That was without a doubt one of the great Doom wads of our time. Although of course, there is no way those maps would run on the real PSX. It would be nice to see what he could come up with.

Well, he still posts, so let's see: Interested, @scalliano?

32 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

If you have free space for one more episode with about 9-11 maps, I think it's good idea, because Phobos Mission Control and Tech Gone Bad is actually usual PWAD maps and not as part of some IWAD. Also Doom1 part will have too much secret maps if Romero maps will added. I think Romero maps is supposed to be secret, but in bonus episode it would be as usual maps. And we already have Super Shotgun on D1 Sewers, I like the idea from PSX Doom where you can find SSG on secret map of Doom1. Phobos Mission Control also have SSG.

Well, they're supposed to be "Romero" versions of E1M4 (which was mostly a Tom Hall level that Romero tweaked) and E1M8 (which was done in the original by Sandy Petersen). I'm going to try a version of E1M8B, but it will definitely be chopped down a fair bit, and definitely not in the next beta - it's going to need lots and lots of work, so probably better to expect that with Beta 4 instead of Beta 3.

32 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

Especially the fact I'm a long time mapper, I can contribute a map or even two (don't count for advertising, but I’ve released two megawads and also many community maps). Some tricks which I not realized in stock maps possible to implement in custom map and it would be as a showcase and example for other people. Also I like if the bonus episode will use Final Doom engine, so we can use some extra features and FD textures. I don't think that E1M4B/E1M8B will suffer.

That's why I suggested what I did - save up those little bundles of tricks and experiments, and while we're drafting the PSX Doom Bible before it gets released publicly, let the LDs who are interested in some maps for an original episode see that so that we can actually make use of those new tricks to give a new, original, fresh experience for those who'll put up with playing PSX Doom. We can always port it to the PC later, of course - no doubt once Erick's got it RE'd fully he's going to update his version of the PSX Doom project that uses GZDoom as its base. (Hopefully he'll do it to a much more recent version as well, unless he's going to aim for a mostly 1:1 port like Doom 64 EX is - then he really doesn't need to go that far and should just optimize it for running the PSX maps on PC.)

32 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

Fun fact, but I still have a pair of paper sketches from 1999 in my storage room. And moreover, in those years I made sketches of actual PSX Doom maps, with the hope of making such maps in the future (with NM Demons, hooks and without arch-viles). I may use parts of layout in my map.

I dated mine as well. They're mostly from around 2008 or so IIRC; the bored doodlings of a college student. That said, they're really basic layouts - I didn't note texture themes, I only noted down important pickups, secrets, and the odd linedef action.

32 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

 

I will say a simple reason: the choosing of these maps can cause controversy between the GEC and the other participants. Because the authors of Master Levels have released many decent stand-alone maps, and there will be debates about which one to choose. And again, these maps are not included in any IWAD, and not being scheduled at PSX Final Doom release, except a Doom2 MAP14 Homage, which planned to be included to Final Doom, but cancelled. This does not mean that I reject this option, I just want to come to a compromise.

Currently ML part have 9 maps. I can assume basically this is mostly enough for a separate episode, only need to make a secret exit for Doom2 MAP14 Homage (need a new name based on Inmost Dens, but not an Innermost Dens, because it will repeat Lost Levels TC).

So here is 3 variants for Master Levels of Master Edition (sorry for the pun), I accepting any of this variants but in the third variant needs to voting and comprehension:

1) Stay ML as is, 9-map episode even it's not too much. Also the sequence of maps can be changed, as it was on ML from PSX Final Doom. I think this is the simplest option that will not take much time to coordinate/compiling.

2) If we have 21 maps on TNT part, the rest 9 maps from ML can be added as sub-episode of Master-TNT. You will choose them like in PSX Doom menu between "Ultimate Doom" and "Doom 2". Also GEC can made them separated (but in one menu), for example, after ML there will be a text intermission and after that exit to the menu where you can choose ML maps or TNT. And after TNT, monster cast will be shown. Here it's also need a new text plot for ML ending.

3) Making a voting and debating about adding another maps from the creators of Master Levels. I don't think that we will lose much if we do not include these maps, because the Master Edition already has enough maps. But they need to be chosen carefully, given the complexity, weapon progression, bugs, features and other aspects. This will undoubtedly prolong the development of the Master Edition, given that we will already plan to create episode with bonus maps.
 

Some months back, I worked out a method for deciding what maps to pick. You can click the link for the full details, but it essentially went something like this:

  1. Everyone who was part of the project votes on the map after playing it on PC, giving it a score of 0-100. LDs don't have to play, or even vote, on all maps.
  2. Scores thus nominally range from 0-1100 (since a couple people have left the project since I posted that, and Erick counts as a mapper). N/As (i.e; those who decided not to vote from a map) are excluded to avoid artificially bringing the score down via 0s, so each map's actual ceiling depends on number of N/As.
  3. Ties: Tiebreaking is done by number of players who played the map. A map that scored 400 with eight votes is thus given priority over a map that got 400 but only four votes - more people played the former, so it's more representative of a map that people weighed on as opposed to a map that simply a few people liked a lot.

Based on my math at the time, if we included absolutely everything that wasn't a megawad/episode from Dr. Sleep, Jim Flynn (although his will be really unlikely in retrospect), Christen Klie, Sverre Kvernmo, and Tim Willits, that'd be 21 extra maps. (Tom Mustaine had no standalone levels besides his tribute - everything else was part of megawads or DM-only).

 

In practice, it'd definitely be less than that - Jim Flynn's maps will make PSX Doom cry like hell (they're huge, and lots of vertical play), and I can see a few other maps simply not being decided as being up to mustard (like Christen Klie's and possibly Tim Willits). Dr. Sleep and Sverre Kvernmo got really good shots of being worthy of a few more conversions though.

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On 4/17/2019 at 9:37 AM, riderr3 said:

Currently ML part have 9 maps. I can assume basically this is mostly enough for a separate episode, only need to make a secret exit for Doom2 MAP14 Homage (need a new name based on Inmost Dens, but not an Innermost Dens, because it will repeat Lost Levels TC).
 

 

"Master's Den" works. Plays off master levels while also Inmost Dens.

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On 4/16/2019 at 5:37 PM, riderr3 said:

Currently ML part have 9 maps. I can assume basically this is mostly enough for a separate episode, only need to make a secret exit for Doom2 MAP14 Homage (need a new name based on Inmost Dens, but not an Innermost Dens, because it will repeat Lost Levels TC).

Musty Stain?

 

Plays off the fact that both American McGee felt it was unoriginal, as well as (of course) Tom Mustaine's last name.

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I really like Master's Den, and Musty Stain is also a good backup name.

In addition Master Edition have more maps which names will conflict with previous maps from PSX/PC Doom, so here are my suggestions:

E1M10: Sewers (I like Forgotten Sewers because it fits into this sprawling design)
Hell Keep (Inferno Keep as it's introductory map to hell maps)
Central Processing (Primary Processing works for typical TNT map)
 

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I'd personally be interested in seeing more Dr. Sleep maps in PSX Doom format. 

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1 hour ago, Job said:

I'd personally be interested in seeing more Dr. Sleep maps in PSX Doom format. 

If Erick expands the scope, I'd definitely like to do a few of his others.

 

2 hours ago, riderr3 said:

I really like Master's Den, and Musty Stain is also a good backup name.

In addition Master Edition have more maps which names will conflict with previous maps from PSX/PC Doom, so here are my suggestions:

E1M10: Sewers (I like Forgotten Sewers because it fits into this sprawling design)
Hell Keep (Inferno Keep as it's introductory map to hell maps)
Central Processing (Primary Processing works for typical TNT map)
 

Not as much of a problem as it seems to be.

  • Plutonia's MAP28 is "The Sewers" and not just Sewers. It's also Plutonia, so that'd be a separate level set from Doom.
  • Ditto for the Central Processing confusion: One is a TNT level, one is a Doom level. Different level set = won't be loaded at the same time = no conflict.
  • The only one that actually could conflict would be "original" Hell Keep vs. PSX Hell Keep. That will probably need a rename.
Edited by Dark Pulse

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5 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

The only one that actually could conflict would be "original" Hell Keep vs. PSX Hell Keep. That will probably need a rename.

 

My headcanon's always had it like this --v

The green arena map that starts you off staring at a fire sky and soulsphere would be "Babel Entrance"

The palace of red bricks will be Hell Gate

and the e3m1 everyone knows and loves will be Hell Keep

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2 minutes ago, StalkerZHS said:

 

My headcanon's always had it like this --v

The green arena map that starts you off staring at a fire sky and soulsphere would be "Babel Entrance"

The palace of red bricks will be Hell Gate

and the e3m1 everyone knows and loves will be Hell Keep

Hmm. I guess that's a question more for Erick than anyone else. Admittedly it also will only really matter if we're doing a "slot in" version where we are intermixing the original PSX levels with our conversions - if we're not, then we don't have to worry about console Hell Keep.

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54 minutes ago, StalkerZHS said:

 

My headcanon's always had it like this --v

The green arena map that starts you off staring at a fire sky and soulsphere would be "Babel Entrance"

The palace of red bricks will be Hell Gate

and the e3m1 everyone knows and loves will be Hell Keep


Heh... and all GBA, Jaguar and 3DO players know Hell Gate as a Tower of Babel.
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/MAP16:_Tower_of_Babel_(Console_Doom)
^^^
That's the not the Tower of Babel that we know.

Changing map names for different platforms it was common practice in those years. I think they relied on level progression and other factors.

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Just tried merging some sectors to free up extra RAM and see if it could free up enough wiggle room to get even one extra type of monsters in for Bloodsea Keep and it just wasn't having it. It's going to be a very lean bestiary, so I'm going to have to pump it up by varying up the encounters to replace quite a bit of hitpoints that were otherwise lost due to monster removal.

 

Also means the sector merge changes are kind of worthless, so I'm going to wind up reverting that. I'm seeing if I can revert the decorations as well, since if I can't fit Hell Knights/Pain Elementals even with the decorations slimmed down, I might as well restore them, unless that conks out the Lost Souls too. In which case, well, guess I found my final map settings and can get to work on coloring and bugfixing.

Edited by Dark Pulse

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4-5 monster varieties is near decent number on complex maps, especially when using NM monsters.

As I remember, in beta2 this maps have even more scarce monster types - 3 (any map I converted have 5+ of them)

Level 24: The Chasm (huge map, I see even one optional area is removed)
Level 18: Mill (might be a chance to adding lost souls?)
Level 27: Mount Pain (here I understand that part of the linedefs went spend on the mountain and it is right)
Level 12: Speed (surely can keep more varieties after map optimizing. Also the group of chaingunners on cybie's pedestal is mostly pointless, why not use NM revenants at least)
Level 29: Odyssey of Noises (might be a chance to adding lost souls, though it's also will require more simplifications)
 

Edited by riderr3

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17 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

4-5 monster varieties is near decent number on complex maps, especially when using NM monsters.

As I remember, in beta2 this maps have even more scarce monster types - 3 (any map I converted have 5+ of them)

Level 24: The Chasm (huge map, I see even one optional area is removed)
Level 18: Mill (might be a chance to adding lost souls?)
Level 27: Mount Pain (here I understand that part of the linedefs went spend on the mountain and it is right)
Level 12: Speed (surely can keep more varieties after map optimizing. Also the group of chaingunners on cybie's pedestal is mostly pointless, why not use NM revenants at least)
Level 29: Odyssey of Noises (might be a chance to adding lost souls, though it's also will require more simplifications)
 

Oh, believe me, I'll be using Nightmare Monsters aplenty. I was just hoping I could squeeze in at least one of those two last types cut (Pain Elementals/Hell Knights). No dice...

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14 hours ago, riderr3 said:

Level 18: Mill (might be a chance to adding lost souls?)

 

Trust me, Mill was already quite hard to convert. I'm not adding lost souls. XD (Though if I'm able to free up enough memory then maaaybe lost souls for beta 3/4? :3)

 

14 hours ago, riderr3 said:

Level 24: The Chasm (huge map, I see even one optional area is removed)

 

I know which optional area you're on about. I'm not fully sure why I removed it. (I think it was because of lag or crashes? I can't remember XD) I might add it back in and add a rad suit there so you can escape it without too much damage.

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On 4/19/2019 at 12:08 PM, Dark Pulse said:

I'm seeing if I can revert the decorations as well, since if I can't fit Hell Knights/Pain Elementals even with the decorations slimmed down, I might as well restore them, unless that conks out the Lost Souls too. In which case, well, guess I found my final map settings and can get to work on coloring and bugfixing.

Yup, it sure did choke. But the good news is that some judicious sector joining (including a few areas that riderr3 missed) seems to have gotten the map up and running without me having to condense the decorations and/or lose the Lost Souls.

 

Map doesn't crash on respawn, either, so I guess as long as it can handle my increased monster count fine to replace all the cut monsters, we're all set and the atmosphere-izing can begin!

Edited by Dark Pulse

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On 4/20/2019 at 2:15 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Yup, it sure did choke. But the good news is that some judicious sector joining (including a few areas that riderr3 missed) seems to have gotten the map up and running without me having to condense the decorations and/or lose the Lost Souls.

 

Map doesn't crash on respawn, either, so I guess as long as it can handle my increased monster count fine to replace all the cut monsters, we're all set and the atmosphere-izing can begin!

Guess what happened with the increased monster count? Guess the decorations are going after all. Damn it.

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I'd say I was in the more difficult situations a few times.
At least you can still use corpses of existed monsters and I think also "bloody mess" thing because eventually it's must be a bloodthirsty map by the name.

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2 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

I'd say I was in the more difficult situations a few times.
At least you can still use corpses of existed monsters and I think also "bloody mess" thing because eventually it's must be a bloodthirsty map by the name.

I'll just go back to the decoration cuts I'd reverted when I was able to get the map running with the sector joining. It'll save me at least 35-40k of space which should be enough to add all the monsters I need to add (really all I need to do at this point is add more Lost Souls; all the replacements for cut monsters are in).

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I wonder how the "Tech Gone Bad" conversion will turn and what difficulties are coming. I just checked original map and it have 500+ more linedefs than in the most comprehensive map I did - The Earth Base. There will be a lot of slowdowns without shortening/removing windows and shrinking outside area. A lot of detailing surely needs to be removed/remade. Also maybe it's a chance to make fight with a barons a bit interesting (I really like how PSX version of Dis is presented).

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2 hours ago, riderr3 said:

I wonder how the "Tech Gone Bad" conversion will turn and what difficulties are coming. I just checked original map and it have 500+ more linedefs than in the most comprehensive map I did - The Earth Base. There will be a lot of slowdowns without shortening/removing windows and shrinking outside area. A lot of detailing surely needs to be removed/remade. Also maybe it's a chance to make fight with a barons a bit interesting (I really like how PSX version of Dis is presented).

It's over a sidedef limit, so needless to say, I'm going to need to do a LOT of simplification. It's not going to be in Beta 3, that's for sure. Erick sent me an incomplete version of the map, which I'll look at when I get to it, and see if I like what he started or if I should go my own way.

 

And thanks, that makes me happy to know you liked what I did with Dis. :) 

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7 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

Would be interesting if you guys added https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Extramap.wad  into the port somewhere, made into a finished level obviously :p  Its sorta-official!

That'd be up to Erick, but my hunch is no, since E2M5 was represented in PSX Doom already, and that map only really got known because of EXTRAMAP.WAD. I mean, other than the cut out chunk of E2M5, it doesn't offer too much of note that we couldn't do better just by making original maps, really.

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This even deserved page on Doomwiki. But yes, it depends on the desire of the GEC Team, and if available, may be suitable for the bonus episode. Moreover, it needs more reworking, detailing and such, because it looks pretty unfinished. PSX version of Command Center did not include those areas though.

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Mmm, that extramap.wad caught my attention, I know it is incomplete but who is encouraged to give life to that map, if they do I will include it.

 

I have also accepted maps sent to me by mr-around, which I plan to include in beta 3, these are:

Christen Klie - D-M-Z
Christen Klie - Enemy Inside, the
Christen Klie - Hive, the
John Anderson - Crossing Acheron
John Anderson - Dante's Gate
Sverre Kvernmo - Bloodflood
Sverre Kvernmo - Derelict Station

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Erick194 said:

Mmm, that extramap.wad caught my attention, I know it is incomplete but who is encouraged to give life to that map, if they do I will include it.

 


Ok I'll make a decent PSX implementation of it.

P.S. Maybe it needs more readable name which will symbolize both the theme, the idea and somewhat original name. I'll think about it if needed.

Also the extra ML map roster is from pretty decent ones (other maps are too heavy or too plain). Glad we will receive more maps for beta3.

P.P.S. @Erick194 I think the first post is also needs to be updated, it's probably outdated. With info about extra ML maps along with extramap.wad, because I don't know what format it needs: Doom or Final Doom. I'll use Doom format just in case, the map should work in FD without problems.

Edited by riderr3

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