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Erick194

[GEC] Master Edition PSX Doom for the PlayStation. 31/10/2018 Beta 2 released now incluiding NRTFL levels.

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Yeah, I get that much (and how compression/decompression works as a basic concept).

 

The key would lie on figuring out what could be compressed and decompressed without errors here, since what you'd effectively want is either some kind of lossless compression, or some form of lossy compression that at least can be "reconstructed" enough to be effectively lossless.

 

Anything made can be unmade, with enough time and resources and people attacking the problem. Maybe now that we have hacks for the PS1 version working, it might be worth someone's time to figure it out for the N64. The PS1 version is certainly not the first console port to get custom map support (IIRC, that was the 32X version), and I know years ago someone had begun documenting how the SNES port does its maps (and that's not even the actual Doom engine!).

 

The N64 version is simply the last one that's "worth a damn" to attempt to crack.

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Faith is good, but so would be tracking down one of those developers and seeing if they can remember. (Ideally Aaron Seeler, as he's the one who did the programming work.)

 

That said, I've talked to Kaiser, and he's said that his fork of Doom Builder (1) for Doom 64 EX can actually make maps the N64 game could read if re-inserted. They'd just not be compressed, and would need to be padded to four-byte boundaries to be properly read, as all data in the game needs.

 

Still, without compression, this would be tricky at best - there's not a ton of free room in the ROM (about 1 MB give or take).

 

He did put up source that had it preliminarily working on Doom Builder 2's codebase, but otherwise, that's still the one and only option.

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@Erick194 Any ETA for when the next beta is planned? I've got my two maps done but I'm working on other stuff not related to this project, but I'd also like to make sure those get in before the next beta release.

 

Also considering putting my name up there if anyone wants help finishing their maps, or possibly wants to pawn them off, though it will be trickier (and harder on me) if they're maps I didn't like so much or if they need a lot of work. :P

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I'm not a GEC but there are very small number of new maps, so it's probably will happen in next year. Except if the other contributors will release a couple of the maps soon (which unlikely). Especially the fact that the previous beta added not only maps but also new features and bugfixes, next beta will not happen soon.

I hope the next beta will reveal MAP30: Icon of Sin. It probably needs improving and feedback from other people, at least in current state. There also some maps to be done which are claimed by GEC and I see not much is ready except IoS and small couple of maps. Also I feel the OP with completed map list is outdated.

Edited by riderr3

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15 minutes ago, riderr3 said:

I'm not a GEC but there are very small number of new maps, so it's probably will happen in next year. Except if the other contributors will release a couple of the maps soon (which unlikely). Especially the fact that the previous beta added not only maps but also new features and bugfixes, next beta will not happen soon.

I hope the next beta will reveal MAP30: Icon of Sin. It probably needs improving and feedback from other people, at least in current state. There also some maps to be done which are claimed by GEC and I see not much is ready except IoS and small couple of maps. Also I feel the OP with completed map list is outdated.

Well, it was about two months between the previous Betas (Beta 1 was late August; Beta 2, late October), so I figured it'd be somewhat nearing up possibly.

 

That and as I've got a whole week-plus off from work in late December, if I'm going to be helping out on other maps or whatnot, that's the time to do it.

 

Otherwise I'll spend my vacation translating stuff, probably.

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I have a question...

 

Is this even possible to add "savegame" feature? I mean saves between levels, not quicksaves (this just sounds like extremely impossible)

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Ouch, this is extremely impossible (but who knows) to add. If we could manage it, you must be needing a whole memory card in order to save game. Just like PSX Hexen and Duke Nukem 3D lol.

 

@Dark Pulse I guess next beta is coming next yeat, as @riderr3 pointed out, there are few new maps available. Anyway, we will be contacting the other members if they need help with their maps. Besides I must say Master Levels will be 32 levels megawad in this version and we need to add new maps for it, besides a new special episode for Doom. :)

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:41 AM, Gerardo194 said:

@Dark Pulse I guess next beta is coming next yeat, as @riderr3 pointed out, there are few new maps available. Anyway, we will be contacting the other members if they need help with their maps. Besides I must say Master Levels will be 32 levels megawad in this version and we need to add new maps for it, besides a new special episode for Doom. :)

So in other words, you're saying you'll want some custom levels to pad it out, eh? There's 21 levels, so that's 11 slots to fill.

 

The question then becomes are we going to dip into other works by the Master Levels authors to fully pad it out, or are we going to be making use of the team assembled to do this project's levels, or something else entirely?

 

If we go with Master Levels authors...

Spoiler
  1. Dr. Sleep (RIP) only really has a handful of other levels, since most of his work is actually IN the Master Levels. We'll sadly never get to see Waters of Lethe (unless he sent a beta to someone and they throw it up on the internet somehow), but we could always put in Dante's Gate or Crossing Acheron. They led to his involvement in the Master Levels in the first place, after all, and Crossing Acheron was one of the Top 10 Doomworld WADs for 1994 - excellent company to put in, IMO.
  2. Jim Flynn (RIP as well) has quite a few standalone levels worthy of consideration, but if we're keeping with the "Titan" theme, we'd probably want to consider the contemporary The Farside of Titan, Mines of Titan, or The Titan Anomaly. A few others here and there though, including 1996's Trouble on Titan.
  3. Christen Klie has practically tailor-made maps for this - the whole "Master Levels Outtakes" is worthy of considering.
  4. Sverre Kvernmo is tricky, since most of his work was part of projects. We'd basically be dipping into his Cabal series, of which several are already in the Master Levels. The others are either part of projects (Eternal Doom) or standalone stuff that'd require a ZDoom-tier advanced port, which is way too much to ask of the PS1 Engine.
  5. Tom Mustaine is probably the trickiest of all. Most of his maps were part of other projects, and he did a lot of deathmatch or mod stuff, but not a ton of singleplayer-capable stuff that's also not part of a project. Unless we're willing to dip into those, we may just have to leave him at his homage.
  6. Tim Willits didn't do any other Doom maps AFAIK - two of his maps are in Ultimate Doom; the other two are already in the Master Levels, so we can effectively count him out.

Basically, if we throw in Crossing Acheron, one or two of Jim Flynn's maps, several from Christen Kile and Sverre Kvernmo, that'd give us the 11 extra we'd need. Going to be tough to represent Tom Mustaine without taking a map from those MegaWADs though, and Tim Willits literally gets goose-egg for extra content of his (because that's all he made).

 

My vacation is in about two weeks (it runs effectively from the 22nd-January 1st, inclusive), so if I'm going to be doing mapping and stuff, that's the time I'd really like to do it. Won't get an extended break like that again until mid-late February.

 

Also... is it technically time to add yet another set of levels to the game, potentially? This did just get announced... and it bumps "Romero Levels" up to a hell of a lot more. Though we do have to see if it's vanilla-compatible, has extra textures/content, etc. before we really try to do anything with that, I'd think... I've shot a tweet to Romero on that topic, if he responds I'll let you know.

 

EDIT: Per a stream of Sigil, Romero's said "Anything but the original, because I'm blowing all the limits." That'd imply limit-removing, which means "technically possible but might be a real bitch to fit in," i.e; the same sort of work that's required on NRFTL.

Edited by Dark Pulse

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Tim Willits made Raven, which is what impressed id enough to give him a job (and is referenced in an easter egg found in Quake 1's E2M7), and Kick Attack, which id had him make to promote the titular drink, but without all its custom graphics and sounds it still works just fine as a solid map for either IWAD.

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Just now, SiFi270 said:

Tim Willits made Raven, which is what impressed id enough to give him a job (and is referenced in an easter egg found in Quake 1's E2M7), and Kick Attack, which id had him make to promote the titular drink, but without all its custom graphics and sounds it still works just fine as a solid map for either IWAD.

D'oh, I forgot about those.

 

Still, the question would be "Are those worth a slot over other contenders?" Not to mention Kick Attack would probably be out without removing the custom monsters. (Textures may or may not be doable.)

 

Not to mention I'm trying to avoid taking maps from megawads and the like, but that's just my personal rule - it'd be up to GEC if they want to stick with that or not.

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Kick Attack really doesn't need its monsters or textures. Without them, it's honestly more appealing because it's not so gimmicky; just a no-frills romp through a techbase.

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7 minutes ago, SiFi270 said:

Kick Attack really doesn't need its monsters or textures. Without them, it's honestly more appealing because it's not so gimmicky; just a no-frills romp through a techbase.

Boy, I'd hope not, that shit is obnoxious. Playing through it now and just kind of shaking my head.

 

Wonder what we'd call it without that though, heh. Not like Kick has existed for over fifteen years, and the name probably should be changed if the map itself is reverting to a stock look.

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15 minutes ago, SiFi270 said:

The Abandoned Factory?

I was thinking something like "Hall of Dead Soda" or something like that, but it's tongue in cheek.

 

Also, tut tut Mr. Willits, your texture alignment needs work...

Screenshot_Doom_20181211_120027.png.f8045ca20254e08d03d8ed4d61b0e4bd.png

 

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What about "Stomped Flat"? Because stomping is kind of like kicking, and flat is an unfortunate state for soda to be in.

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3 hours ago, SiFi270 said:

What about "Stomped Flat"? Because stomping is kind of like kicking, and flat is an unfortunate state for soda to be in.

I guess we'll worry about it if GEC decides they want to include it.

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I would love to see more of Dr. Sleep's levels ported over to pad the Master Levels. His style and nuance definitely lends itself well to the PSX atmosphere.

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On 12/1/2018 at 7:27 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Faith is good, but so would be tracking down one of those developers and seeing if they can remember. (Ideally Aaron Seeler, as he's the one who did the programming work.)

 

That said, I've talked to Kaiser, and he's said that his fork of Doom Builder (1) for Doom 64 EX can actually make maps the N64 game could read if re-inserted. They'd just not be compressed, and would need to be padded to four-byte boundaries to be properly read, as all data in the game needs.

 

Still, without compression, this would be tricky at best - there's not a t

On 11/20/2018 at 6:49 AM, Dark Pulse said:

Yeah, I get that much (and how compression/decompression works as a basic concept).

 

The key would lie on figuring out what could be compressed and decompressed without errors here, since what you'd effectively want is either some kind of lossless compression, or some form of lossy compression that at least can be "reconstructed" enough to be effectively lossless.

 

Anything made can be unmade, with enough time and resources and people attacking the problem. Maybe now that we have hacks for the PS1 version working, it might be worth someone's time to figure it out for the N64. The PS1 version is certainly not the first console port to get custom map support (IIRC, that was the 32X version), and I know years ago someone had begun documenting how the SNES port does its maps (and that's not even the actual Doom engine!).

 

The N64 version is simply the last one that's "worth a damn" to attempt to crack.

on of free room in the ROM (about 1 MB give or take).

Speaking of this Dark Pulse - the srce code for MK Trilogy had leaked couple months back, within that code there was a very early preliminary rom which had an LMP of a demo recording of Doom II - so this was probably when MIDWAY were picking Carmack's brain so to speak - from Romero - when they were going to create Doom 64. At the time, I'm thinking they were originally going to port doom 1 and 2 to the 64, based on the MIDWAY E3 Convention/Doom thing on YouTube (it's on a thread here on the forums) in 1995 or 1996? 

Anyways, in regards to compression, I know there's a tool you can use to decompress the rom - GE Decompressor (found here: https://github.com/jombo23/N64-Tools/tree/master/GEDecompressor) you're gonna want to use the MidwayDecoder portion of it. for the rom file. 

Some more info on each compression type - http://en64.shoutwiki.com/wiki/N64_Compression 

Hope this helps! 

Edited by ImpieEyez95

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Yeah, we found GEDecompressor last night ourselves, actually, after I'd asked Carmack on Twitter if he remembered the compression algorithm (he didn't, sadly). Actually we'd found MidwayDec, but since that was private, I stumbled upon GEDecompressor while looking for a download of it.

 

Kaiser said he does remember seeing that "Lz" header, but I don't know if it's the magic bullet for compressing maps - there's basically one set of compression for most of the ROM, but a few things have a SECOND type of compression. In theory, though, he's not needed per se to test this - someone who can get to the compressed data in the Doom 64 IWAD in the game ROM should be able to take the maps as run by Doom 64 EX's IWAD, decompress/recompress them, and if they turn out to be byte-accurate to what's in the ROM itself, then that's almost certainly the compression. From the Doom 64 Tech Bible:

 

Quote

Like the Jaguar and Playstation versions, Doom 64 uses a LZSS compression algorithm for its lumps to preserve ROM space.

 

In Doom 64, however, a second compression algorithm is used for the levels, demos, and textures, which is similar to the Huffman algorithm, using a lookup table for compressed bytes.

 

The algorithm to decompress these lumps has been identified and is used in the Wadgen utility for Doom64 Ex (see deflate64.c)

 

AFAIK, we'd either need that or an expanded ROM to actually hold a Megawad's worth of map content. Otherwise the maps would be too big to fit into the ROM. (He's also not so sure on that last part - modified Huffman is his best guess, and it could be entirely wrong.) Maybe it's possible someone could reverse it based off the decompression algorithm, but I'm not sure.

 

So basically, once that happens, we're good to go with at least adding new maps to the game. Fancier stuff (like adding in the missing monster types, high rez support via the RAM expansion, etc.) would require fancier recoding.

 

So if you'd really like to help us out @ImpieEyez95, that's where you'd want to start, by giving that Doom 64 Tech Bible a solid read. As you can see, most of the game is pretty thoroughly RE'd by Kaiser already, but those last few things - maps, textures, and demos - are big unknowns, in that we know how to decompress them, but not how to recompress them. And the first two of those would definitely be necessary for any sort of custom level/texture support.

 

(Sprites, on the other hand, should theoretically be pretty simple to insert - the problem would be expanding and recoding the engine/ROM as necessary, and of course, if content on that level actually gets added, needing to update Doom Builder 64 to deal with this enhanced support - or forking support for Doom 64 stuff into Doom Builder X/GZDoom Builder Bugfix.)

Edited by Dark Pulse : Linked to Doom 64 tech bible.

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On 12/11/2018 at 9:38 AM, Dark Pulse said:

The question then becomes are we going to dip into other works by the Master Levels authors to fully pad it out, or are we going to be making use of the team assembled to do this project's levels, or something else entirely?

 

If we go with Master Levels authors...

  Hide contents
  1. Dr. Sleep (RIP) only really has a handful of other levels, since most of his work is actually IN the Master Levels. We'll sadly never get to see Waters of Lethe (unless he sent a beta to someone and they throw it up on the internet somehow), but we could always put in Dante's Gate or Crossing Acheron. They led to his involvement in the Master Levels in the first place, after all, and Crossing Acheron was one of the Top 10 Doomworld WADs for 1994 - excellent company to put in, IMO.
  2. Jim Flynn (RIP as well) has quite a few standalone levels worthy of consideration, but if we're keeping with the "Titan" theme, we'd probably want to consider the contemporary The Farside of Titan, Mines of Titan, or The Titan Anomaly. A few others here and there though, including 1996's Trouble on Titan.
  3. Christen Klie has practically tailor-made maps for this - the whole "Master Levels Outtakes" is worthy of considering.
  4. Sverre Kvernmo is tricky, since most of his work was part of projects. We'd basically be dipping into his Cabal series, of which several are already in the Master Levels. The others are either part of projects (Eternal Doom) or standalone stuff that'd require a ZDoom-tier advanced port, which is way too much to ask of the PS1 Engine.
  5. Tom Mustaine is probably the trickiest of all. Most of his maps were part of other projects, and he did a lot of deathmatch or mod stuff, but not a ton of singleplayer-capable stuff that's also not part of a project. Unless we're willing to dip into those, we may just have to leave him at his homage.
  6. Tim Willits didn't do any other Doom maps AFAIK - two of his maps are in Ultimate Doom; the other two are already in the Master Levels, so we can effectively count him out.

Basically, if we throw in Crossing Acheron, one or two of Jim Flynn's maps, several from Christen Kile and Sverre Kvernmo, that'd give us the 11 extra we'd need. Going to be tough to represent Tom Mustaine without taking a map from those MegaWADs though, and Tim Willits literally gets goose-egg for extra content of his (because that's all he made).

I see that Job and SiFi270 have liked the idea of adding more maps from Master Levels authors and I think this can be a great idea. Let's include more Dr.Sleep and Jim Flynn maps, we can also consider Christen Klie maps as well, his Master levels Outtakes sound interesting. I think Sverre Kvernmo maps are enough for the PSX as they were never included. I think we can also include Kick by Tim Willits, i like the new names that you and SiFi270 were giving it. I hope that @Dragonsbrethren is still working on Tom Mustaine's Homage. If there are some free slots, we can include new exclusive maps.

 

On 12/11/2018 at 9:38 AM, Dark Pulse said:

Also... is it technically time to add yet another set of levels to the game, potentially? This did just get announced... and it bumps "Romero Levels" up to a hell of a lot more. Though we do have to see if it's vanilla-compatible, has extra textures/content, etc. before we really try to do anything with that, I'd think... I've shot a tweet to Romero on that topic, if he responds I'll let you know.

 

If Romero say yes, we could include it along the special exclusive episode @Job suggested: "Into the darkness" which features brand new maps made by this team.

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1 hour ago, Gerardo194 said:

I see that Job and SiFi270 have liked the idea of adding more maps from Master Levels authors and I think this can be a great idea. Let's include more Dr.Sleep and Jim Flynn maps, we can also consider Christen Klie maps as well, his Master levels Outtakes sound interesting. I think Sverre Kvernmo maps are enough for the PSX as they were never included. I think we can also include Kick by Tim Willits, i like the new names that you and SiFi270 were giving it. I hope that @Dragonsbrethren is still working on Tom Mustaine's Homage. If there are some free slots, we can include new exclusive maps.

For Dr. Sleep, Crossing Acheron is definitely the one I'd pick, and Jim Flynn's got several, ditto for Christen Klie and Sverre Kvernmo.

 

The challenge will really be narrowing down all those extra contents to a final list of eleven, assuming you're going for 32 "Master Levels." If so, perhaps it'd be good for some of the team to go through all the possibilities (if they've got time), rank them up, and the maps that get highest scores are the ones we go with.

 

Of course, if you just want to include them all, then that makes things pretty trivial.

 

1 hour ago, Gerardo194 said:

If Romero say yes, we could include it along the special exclusive episode @Job suggested: "Into the darkness" which features brand new maps made by this team.

Well, I did shoot Romero a tweet about the project, but never got a reply to it. Technically the megawad is free (only the physical editions cost anything, but the wad itself will be free), so really getting his permission is more of a "being nice" thing, but yeah, we'll have to have some dedicated dudes to cut it down to PS1 engine limits, for sure.

 

As for original maps, well, that's easiest of all, lol. Don't need nothing but time and interest to create an original episode.

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Hey guys, I got my GZDoom builder updated, but the bad news is everytime I load up the psxdoom game configuration it keeps crashing, and this is how I get this error

GLASW00.png

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Erm, as far as I know you DON'T NEED to update PSX Builder via online updater. This updater converts your PSX Doom Builder into Buggy PC GZDoom Builder.

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@RonLivingston Đeⓧiaz and Dark Pulse are right. Please, download PSXDoom Builder from the first post! Remember we always announce our updates.

 

On 12/12/2018 at 4:41 PM, Dark Pulse said:

For Dr. Sleep, Crossing Acheron is definitely the one I'd pick, and Jim Flynn's got several, ditto for Christen Klie and Sverre Kvernmo.

 

The challenge will really be narrowing down all those extra contents to a final list of eleven, assuming you're going for 32 "Master Levels." If so, perhaps it'd be good for some of the team to go through all the possibilities (if they've got time), rank them up, and the maps that get highest scores are the ones we go with.

 

Of course, if you just want to include them all, then that makes things pretty trivial.

Where can I get those levels? I have never played them... and how could we create that kind of competition for maps to get high score, have you got any ideas about it?

 

On 12/12/2018 at 4:41 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Well, I did shoot Romero a tweet about the project, but never got a reply to it. Technically the megawad is free (only the physical editions cost anything, but the wad itself will be free), so really getting his permission is more of a "being nice" thing, but yeah, we'll have to have some dedicated dudes to cut it down to PS1 engine limits, for sure.

 

As for original maps, well, that's easiest of all, lol. Don't need nothing but time and interest to create an original episode.

Actually, there's still room for some extra levels for the Ultimate Doom Episode, we could wait a couple of after Romero release the Megawad and tweet him again if he allow us to include in PSXDoom Master Edition, although it will be free. Of course there must be a special episode for Doom, DoomII is getting its NRFTL so Doom must get its special episode. You know, everything takes its time...

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40 minutes ago, Gerardo194 said:

Where can I get those levels? I have never played them... and how could we create that kind of competition for maps to get high score, have you got any ideas about it?

I put a link to each Master Levels creator in their names, which will pull up their page on Doom Wiki. That will, in turn, have links to where you can get the WADs on the idgames database (just click the "Doomworld/idgames" link next to each level, should pull it right up). A few may need a little extra navigation, but by and large, that's all that's needed.

 

As for the competition, basically what we'd do is thus:

  1. Anyone involved in the project (since we're the ones who'd be doing the work) is allowed to submit a score for as many of the candidate maps as they desire.
  2. From there, we determine total number of respondents - including you and your brother as two people, there's a total of 13 mappers currently in the project (I'm admittedly not sure which one of you is doing the maps you guys reserved for yourselves, if it's Erick, you, or both). Meaning if everyone gives a 0-100 score, the maximum score a map could have is 1300, and the lowest (of course) is 0.
  3. If not all 13 people review the map and score it, then we still calculate its score, but we also note the number of N/As (Not Applicable) for those who did not - we do *NOT* score 0 for those who did not play the map (that would artificially bring the total down).
  4. This way we have a tiebreaker if there's an equal score, which is that the higher placement is given to the one who had more players - this way two people who really like Map X don't have it placed higher if their individual scores for Map X were higher than the 7 people who gave Map Y a similar total score, but who had more people play it and form an opinion (thus giving that map the better weight).
  5. With the scores obtained, we then know which maps are the worthiest of candidates, and can then move on to seeing who'd be interested in taking it as normal.

This could all easily be done in a spreadsheet. If you'd like, I can whip one up. Wouldn't take more than 30-60 minutes to make. That said, I would need to know how many map slots are to be filled for that "episode." Right now they're combined with TNT Evilution, so if we shuffled them off to their own episode separate from TNT, we'd have something like 40 potential slots we could fill before things get wonky (defined as no longer having music/SFX/etc. properly playing).

 

In which case, assuming we don't take maps from megawad projects, we'd have:

  • Dr. Sleep: 2 (Dante's Gate, Crossing Acheron)
  • Jim Flynn: 5 (Surrounded!, The Farside of Titan, Mines of Titan, The Titan Anomaly, Trouble on Titan)
    • Note that I'm not counting Oracle... due to it being a collab, nor his Enigma episode due to it being a megawad
  • Christen Klie: 6 (Device One, The C.P.U., The D.M.Z., The Enemy Inside, The Fury, The Hive)
  • Sverre Kvernmo: 7 (Bloodflood, Derelict Station, The Watchtower, Temple of Death, We who are About to Die, Eye of the Storm, Image of Evil)
  • Tom Mustaine: None, as all the rest of his work was part of megawads or DM wads (and the only one of those that was SP was part of Perdition's Gate)
  • Tim Willits: 1 (Kick Attack, after it's been de-Kicked)

Meaning if we just "accepted everything" that'd be an extra 21 maps and we'd still have room to spare if we didn't mind ripping levels out of megawads, basically.

 

40 minutes ago, Gerardo194 said:

Actually, there's still room for some extra levels for the Ultimate Doom Episode, we could wait a couple of after Romero release the Megawad and tweet him again if he allow us to include in PSXDoom Master Edition, although it will be free. Of course there must be a special episode for Doom, DoomII is getting its NRFTL so Doom must get its special episode. You know, everything takes its time...

If so, everything should be kosher, and considering Ultimate Doom was 36, another 9 levels should bring it up to only 45 - we'd actually even have room for another 9 on top of that if need be before problems began to surface if we added more than another 5 on top of THAT. I tried mentioning it a bit in his stream last night, but he didn't bite. Got him to chuckle at a few of my awful jokes though (like asking him to do God Mode noises since he was doing his own SFX), and we both got to enjoy some Dr. Pepper at more or less the same time.

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