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Memfis

Is it still a trap if you know it's coming?

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Is this a trap? Do we need a different term?

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10 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

By my own definition, if monster closets open, or monsters teleport in, or whatever, it qualifies as a trap even if you see it coming a mile away.

I've come to expect traps at every key, every weapon, and every large room, since those types tend to be common, and I even use them myself.

Summarizes my thoughts perfectly.

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Posted (edited)

it's not a trap , it's a spacemarine bait.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Memfis said:

Is this a trap?

Yes

49 minutes ago, Memfis said:

Do we need a different term?

No

 

It really does not matter if you can see it coming or not, because it still happens, even if you saw it coming. By all means, think of other terms, like "ambush", for example... Doesn't really make much of a difference as far as I'm concerned.

 

You go near something which you need to complete the map you're playing, stuff may or may not happen. What's new, and when has it been any different ever?

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23 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

That hung bodies and blood pools are evidence of elaborate torture rituals?

Yes, Doom is all about satanism and the darkness it can reach. The demons know no limits.

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Posted (edited)

rd already summed it up nicely, but I'll add: The surprise that constitutes the trap isn't just that, predictably, something - anything - happens when you snag the key, but that something specific happens which, with any luck, subverts your expectations in an entertaining way.
 

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For me, foreshadowed traps like this are among the most enjoyable things in Doom. You have no choice, you must get the red key. And you're going to pay for the privilege. The only thing you don't know is how severe the trap will be, and how deep it is. rdwpa mentioned monsters being released farther away, perhaps cutting off your escape route. That's what I mean by "deep".

 

So it's the anticipation, the wondering about how the trap will play, that always gets me charged up. But it's definitely a trap.  

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Posted (edited)

I've noticed that often when a key is heavily guarded before you can get it, picking it up will not trigger even more ambushes. Why are mappers reluctant to put more traps when you think you're done?

 

To answer the original post: of course it's a booby trap, haven't you watched any museum burglary movie?

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24 minutes ago, Bauul said:

As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. 

 

For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap.  I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key.  In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed!   One even complained it was "bad level design".  

Can't please everyone.

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30 minutes ago, printz said:

I've noticed that often when a key is heavily guarded before you can get it, picking it up will not trigger even more ambushes. Why are mappers reluctant to put more traps when you think you're done?

 

To answer the original post: of course it's a booby trap, haven't you watched any museum burglary movie?

 

That's a lot common too, I guess. IMO, when you have an important item it is expected to always have some opposition, be earlier (before getting the item, pressing a switch which will give you access to it) or after (picking up the item). Having nothing is good too sometimes, like Bauul said. IMO, it paces things better.

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Posted (edited)

giphy.gif.389f4772950ad9c5ed1e0c040b40950a.gif

 

still haven't forgotten about the blue key trap in E1M3. 

Edited by Starkiller

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This is an interesting philosophical question. How do you know for sure that it's going to do what you think it's going to do before you've tried it? 

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22 hours ago, Bauul said:

As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. 

 

For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap.  I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key.  In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed!   One even complained it was "bad level design".  

I kind of like when there is no trap for keys. Because it's such an obvious trap it becomes overly predictable. I prefer when you have to battle to get to the key in the first place, then it's like a reward.

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Posted (edited)

A trap is unexpected. A setup is expected/obvious. That's my distinction for Doom set pieces usually. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2018 at 2:57 PM, Bauul said:

As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. 

 

For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap.  I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key.  In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed!   One even complained it was "bad level design".  

 

You know what you could do with that room, and what I'd like to see once in a while? Have it open up a trapdoor in the room that has some supplies in it. Health, ammo, a weapon, something. I get sick of being punished constantly for picking things up, it'd be nice to get rewarded once in a while.

 

The game that grinds my gears the most in this respect is the Serious Sam games. I love them to death, but when I go out of my way hunting for secrets and see a tiny +1 HP in a corner, pick it up, and have five major biomechanoids teleport in behind me, it pisses me off. It really pisses me off. Because there's never a reward for killing them, aside from getting a 'secret'; I just waste ammo and lose health. 

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3 hours ago, Jello said:

 

You know what you could do with that room, and what I'd like to see once in a while? Have it open up a trapdoor in the room that has some supplies in it. Health, ammo, a weapon, something. I get sick of being punished constantly for picking things up, it'd be nice to get rewarded once in a while.

 

The game that grinds my gears the most in this respect is the Serious Sam games. I love them to death, but when I go out of my way hunting for secrets and see a tiny +1 HP in a corner, pick it up, and have five major biomechanoids teleport in behind me, it pisses me off. It really pisses me off. Because there's never a reward for killing them, aside from getting a 'secret'; I just waste ammo and lose health. 

On the first part, I think that's actually kind of a neat idea, provided it is something that is extremely uncommon. It'd be great for long slogs of maps, where it feels like you can never catch a break, and making progress is like battling against a brick wall. Then, right when you're beginning to really be worn down, you pick up a key, and get teleported to a room that hands you a megasphere and enough ammo to make the rest of the level a smoother ride to the end.

 

On the second point, when I know something like that is going to happen, I quicksave beforehand, experience the secret, then quickload. My curiosity is sated, and I don't feel penalised for wanting to see everything the developers put into the game.

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17 hours ago, Inno said:

On the first part, I think that's actually kind of a neat idea, provided it is something that is extremely uncommon. It'd be great for long slogs of maps, where it feels like you can never catch a break, and making progress is like battling against a brick wall. Then, right when you're beginning to really be worn down, you pick up a key, and get teleported to a room that hands you a megasphere and enough ammo to make the rest of the level a smoother ride to the end.

 

On the second point, when I know something like that is going to happen, I quicksave beforehand, experience the secret, then quickload. My curiosity is sated, and I don't feel penalised for wanting to see everything the developers put into the game.

 

The first point: That's exactly what I meant. It shouldn't happen every time; it should be interspersed with monster traps and the like. But every so often it would be nice to just get a pat on the back. I think it would break up the boredom from "get key, get ambushed, get key, get ambushed". 

 

The second point, yes, I can quicksave and quickload. But I would rather not, usually I just fight my way out of it, mutter to myself, and get on with the game. Because it's there, and I need to see that secret count at the end of the level. So yeah, logically I could see what it is, and then reload and bypass it, but I don't like playing that way. If they're going to make me expend a quarter of my ammunition, at least give me a super health or armor, or uncommon ammo. 

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Going by the dictionary definition, yes, its still a trap.

 

Personally, I consider the difference between trap (surprise) and ambush (not so much).

 

Going by the anime definition... well that only applies to the Alfonso doll from Ouch_m 2. XD

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Posted (edited)

A trap is a trap regardless of if it's been sprung or not.  If I see a bear trap while walking in the woods, it's still a trap even though I haven't stepped in it.  Same applies in Doom with say the nukage pits that are non-escapable.  Just because you haven't fallen in them doesn't make them any less of a trap than if you did. 

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A good way to troll is to make it look obvious there's a trap but don't actually spring a trap there but somewhere that seems normal, spring one. It will definitely confuse new players. XD

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On 6/27/2018 at 9:58 PM, printz said:

I've noticed that often when a key is heavily guarded before you can get it, picking it up will not trigger even more ambushes. Why are mappers reluctant to put more traps when you think you're done?

Because that in itself can get incredibly tedious. I've played some maps quite recently where absolutely everything the player does triggers a massive ambush and after a while I was like, "for God's sake, just end already!" Maps still need their downtime, otherwise, where's the suspense?

 

But yeah, an obvious trap is still a trap.

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Posted (edited)

To me, a trap is all about intent. Even if the person making the level knows it'll be obvious, you can say the demons in-universe set it up as a trap since they rigged the closet door/teleporter to the key for them to leap out on.

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