Memfis Posted June 27, 2018 Is this a trap? Do we need a different term? 7 Share this post Link to post
Aquila Chrysaetos Posted June 27, 2018 If you can see it coming (either through foreknowledge or reasonable deduction), then I call it "expected." Though, I use "trap" as a catch-all term, in a way. By my own definition, if monster closets open, or monsters teleport in, or whatever, it qualifies as a trap even if you see it coming a mile away. I've come to expect traps at every key, every weapon, and every large room, since those types tend to be common, and I even use them myself. 11 Share this post Link to post
Guest Unregistered account Posted June 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said: By my own definition, if monster closets open, or monsters teleport in, or whatever, it qualifies as a trap even if you see it coming a mile away. I've come to expect traps at every key, every weapon, and every large room, since those types tend to be common, and I even use them myself. Summarizes my thoughts perfectly. 0 Share this post Link to post
mun Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) There's one definition of a "trap" is that it's a unpleasant situation which is difficult to escape (read definition #2), so this term still stands even if the player expected it. 8 Share this post Link to post
Roofi Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) it's not a trap , it's a spacemarine bait. 1 Share this post Link to post
baja blast rd. Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) In Doom there is often a distinction between diegesis, the map as if the Doom universe were real, and the actual experience of playing a map. Does anyone truly believe that a dead marine corpse with a shotgun and a few shells at the start of a map was an actual player who came before? That hung bodies and blood pools are evidence of elaborate torture rituals? I don't think so. In this picture you've shown, the trap is vague narrative framing, just like all of that. Anyone not new to the game will suspect the red key is bugged. Many people, including you, complain about this sort of predictability. What often goes unappreciated is this direct signalling can be a jumping point for other types of enjoyment. In true traps, much of the fun comes from the surprise, the visceral thrill of the rug being pulled from under you. In foreshadowed encounters, you are allowed to survey the environment and predict the exact nuances of the encounter, which species of monster will appear where, how the layout might transform, where you can run, what you might want to target first -- what you can do to stack the odds in your favor. You are allowed a moment to fear what is surely about to come your way. You are allowed to build up certain expectations that might be subverted (what if the true trap isn't the red key, but the mobs released in the room you return to?). I'd suggest that these encounters most often fail not by being predictable, but by not allowing you to have fun with anticipation in one of these or any number of ways. 25 Share this post Link to post
Nine Inch Heels Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Memfis said: Is this a trap? Yes 49 minutes ago, Memfis said: Do we need a different term? No It really does not matter if you can see it coming or not, because it still happens, even if you saw it coming. By all means, think of other terms, like "ambush", for example... Doesn't really make much of a difference as far as I'm concerned. You go near something which you need to complete the map you're playing, stuff may or may not happen. What's new, and when has it been any different ever? 7 Share this post Link to post
printz Posted June 27, 2018 23 minutes ago, rdwpa said: That hung bodies and blood pools are evidence of elaborate torture rituals? Yes, Doom is all about satanism and the darkness it can reach. The demons know no limits. 1 Share this post Link to post
durian Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) rd already summed it up nicely, but I'll add: The surprise that constitutes the trap isn't just that, predictably, something - anything - happens when you snag the key, but that something specific happens which, with any luck, subverts your expectations in an entertaining way. 4 Share this post Link to post
Steve D Posted June 27, 2018 For me, foreshadowed traps like this are among the most enjoyable things in Doom. You have no choice, you must get the red key. And you're going to pay for the privilege. The only thing you don't know is how severe the trap will be, and how deep it is. rdwpa mentioned monsters being released farther away, perhaps cutting off your escape route. That's what I mean by "deep". So it's the anticipation, the wondering about how the trap will play, that always gets me charged up. But it's definitely a trap. 8 Share this post Link to post
Bauul Posted June 27, 2018 As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap. I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key. In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed! One even complained it was "bad level design". 13 Share this post Link to post
printz Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) I've noticed that often when a key is heavily guarded before you can get it, picking it up will not trigger even more ambushes. Why are mappers reluctant to put more traps when you think you're done? To answer the original post: of course it's a booby trap, haven't you watched any museum burglary movie? 3 Share this post Link to post
Aquila Chrysaetos Posted June 27, 2018 24 minutes ago, Bauul said: As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap. I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key. In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed! One even complained it was "bad level design". Can't please everyone. 1 Share this post Link to post
Deadwing Posted June 27, 2018 30 minutes ago, printz said: I've noticed that often when a key is heavily guarded before you can get it, picking it up will not trigger even more ambushes. Why are mappers reluctant to put more traps when you think you're done? To answer the original post: of course it's a booby trap, haven't you watched any museum burglary movie? That's a lot common too, I guess. IMO, when you have an important item it is expected to always have some opposition, be earlier (before getting the item, pressing a switch which will give you access to it) or after (picking up the item). Having nothing is good too sometimes, like Bauul said. IMO, it paces things better. 0 Share this post Link to post
Starkiller Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) I still haven't forgotten about the blue key trap in E1M3. Edited June 28, 2018 by Starkiller 7 Share this post Link to post
tib_ Posted June 28, 2018 This is an interesting philosophical question. How do you know for sure that it's going to do what you think it's going to do before you've tried it? 0 Share this post Link to post
whirledtsar Posted June 28, 2018 22 hours ago, Bauul said: As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap. I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key. In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed! One even complained it was "bad level design". I kind of like when there is no trap for keys. Because it's such an obvious trap it becomes overly predictable. I prefer when you have to battle to get to the key in the first place, then it's like a reward. 2 Share this post Link to post
Scotty Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) A trap is unexpected. A setup is expected/obvious. That's my distinction for Doom set pieces usually. 0 Share this post Link to post
Jello Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) On 6/27/2018 at 2:57 PM, Bauul said: As a mapper, sometimes you can't win in situations like this. For example, there's a room a little like that in one of my maps that doesn't spring a trap. I didn't mean it in a subverting way or anything, I just needed a room for the key. In watching streams of the map, I saw people approach the key and say stuff like "Oh my god this is such an obvious trap!" but when they picked it up and it wasn't a trap, they were even more annoyed! One even complained it was "bad level design". You know what you could do with that room, and what I'd like to see once in a while? Have it open up a trapdoor in the room that has some supplies in it. Health, ammo, a weapon, something. I get sick of being punished constantly for picking things up, it'd be nice to get rewarded once in a while. The game that grinds my gears the most in this respect is the Serious Sam games. I love them to death, but when I go out of my way hunting for secrets and see a tiny +1 HP in a corner, pick it up, and have five major biomechanoids teleport in behind me, it pisses me off. It really pisses me off. Because there's never a reward for killing them, aside from getting a 'secret'; I just waste ammo and lose health. 0 Share this post Link to post
Inno Posted June 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Jello said: You know what you could do with that room, and what I'd like to see once in a while? Have it open up a trapdoor in the room that has some supplies in it. Health, ammo, a weapon, something. I get sick of being punished constantly for picking things up, it'd be nice to get rewarded once in a while. The game that grinds my gears the most in this respect is the Serious Sam games. I love them to death, but when I go out of my way hunting for secrets and see a tiny +1 HP in a corner, pick it up, and have five major biomechanoids teleport in behind me, it pisses me off. It really pisses me off. Because there's never a reward for killing them, aside from getting a 'secret'; I just waste ammo and lose health. On the first part, I think that's actually kind of a neat idea, provided it is something that is extremely uncommon. It'd be great for long slogs of maps, where it feels like you can never catch a break, and making progress is like battling against a brick wall. Then, right when you're beginning to really be worn down, you pick up a key, and get teleported to a room that hands you a megasphere and enough ammo to make the rest of the level a smoother ride to the end. On the second point, when I know something like that is going to happen, I quicksave beforehand, experience the secret, then quickload. My curiosity is sated, and I don't feel penalised for wanting to see everything the developers put into the game. 1 Share this post Link to post
Jello Posted June 30, 2018 17 hours ago, Inno said: On the first part, I think that's actually kind of a neat idea, provided it is something that is extremely uncommon. It'd be great for long slogs of maps, where it feels like you can never catch a break, and making progress is like battling against a brick wall. Then, right when you're beginning to really be worn down, you pick up a key, and get teleported to a room that hands you a megasphere and enough ammo to make the rest of the level a smoother ride to the end. On the second point, when I know something like that is going to happen, I quicksave beforehand, experience the secret, then quickload. My curiosity is sated, and I don't feel penalised for wanting to see everything the developers put into the game. The first point: That's exactly what I meant. It shouldn't happen every time; it should be interspersed with monster traps and the like. But every so often it would be nice to just get a pat on the back. I think it would break up the boredom from "get key, get ambushed, get key, get ambushed". The second point, yes, I can quicksave and quickload. But I would rather not, usually I just fight my way out of it, mutter to myself, and get on with the game. Because it's there, and I need to see that secret count at the end of the level. So yeah, logically I could see what it is, and then reload and bypass it, but I don't like playing that way. If they're going to make me expend a quarter of my ammunition, at least give me a super health or armor, or uncommon ammo. 0 Share this post Link to post
eharper256 Posted July 1, 2018 Going by the dictionary definition, yes, its still a trap. Personally, I consider the difference between trap (surprise) and ambush (not so much). Going by the anime definition... well that only applies to the Alfonso doll from Ouch_m 2. XD 0 Share this post Link to post
Maser Posted July 1, 2018 (edited) A trap is a trap regardless of if it's been sprung or not. If I see a bear trap while walking in the woods, it's still a trap even though I haven't stepped in it. Same applies in Doom with say the nukage pits that are non-escapable. Just because you haven't fallen in them doesn't make them any less of a trap than if you did. 0 Share this post Link to post
DynamiteKaitorn Posted July 1, 2018 A good way to troll is to make it look obvious there's a trap but don't actually spring a trap there but somewhere that seems normal, spring one. It will definitely confuse new players. XD 0 Share this post Link to post
scalliano Posted July 1, 2018 On 6/27/2018 at 9:58 PM, printz said: I've noticed that often when a key is heavily guarded before you can get it, picking it up will not trigger even more ambushes. Why are mappers reluctant to put more traps when you think you're done? Because that in itself can get incredibly tedious. I've played some maps quite recently where absolutely everything the player does triggers a massive ambush and after a while I was like, "for God's sake, just end already!" Maps still need their downtime, otherwise, where's the suspense? But yeah, an obvious trap is still a trap. 2 Share this post Link to post
VGamingJunkie Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) To me, a trap is all about intent. Even if the person making the level knows it'll be obvious, you can say the demons in-universe set it up as a trap since they rigged the closet door/teleporter to the key for them to leap out on. 0 Share this post Link to post