a new doom.wad? thoughts on sandbox and community

[Mk7_Centipede]

(I think this is the right subforum, since its where I lurk)

 

I am that guy you hate. I played Marathon 2. I played Halo. I couldnt beat the last boss in the new DOOM2016. I spent money on Clash Royal. Whatever you do, I can do better, to more aplomb and with greater incoming riches. Your girlfriend stares too long. Your dad sends me memes. No Rest For The Living is the best DOOM episode.

 

I am that guy you hate, and I am going to talk about DOOM. DOOM and DOOM2. I am going to theorycraft and analyze and contribute close to nothing. About the game you can kick my ass at every match every day for all eternity. And you will disagree, but it wont matter because opinions dont matter. Just as mine doesnt.

 

Within a month I will post my first map and it will strike you as so totally unoriginal and also so elementary and astute. You will play it on co-op secretly with your best friends.

 

And then you will be back here, at this post of mine, talking about DOOM's future. Seeing as I do. Wondering as I wonder. Thinking on your own.

 

We need a new doom.wad

 

Of gravest import is the balance of weapons, the balance of enemies, and the variety in textures. You think right now that I am leaning towards something BETWEEN classic DOOM and gameplay mods like High Noon Drifter or Brutal DOOM or even KDIZD. But you still have yet to catch on to my subtlety.

 

We need a new doom.wad

 

The game has been around for 25 years and never had a balance patch and no one has been able to solve this issue. Literally, every single player knows the pistol and shotgun are not up to snuff with the other guns.  You could add 4 pellets to the shotgun or something. You could make the pistol more accurate and have a higher ROF. I dunno. It is incredulous that this isnt seen very pressing. I dont know if Zandorum adds Pellets to the shotgun or anything. But it has a dual chainsaw.

 

We need a new doom.wad

 

When the game was released, it was played with wasd. Now it is played with a mouse and keyboard. Strifing isnt a secret anymore. There really is no reason to have Handicapped enemies. Give the Hellknight and Demon faster movement, maybe. Allow the imp to throw 1, 2, or 3 fireballs in succession. Give the Pain Elemental a melee attack. DOOM does have an amazing bestiary but variety is the spice of life. None of what I said requires new sprites. I didnt suggest fatalities. Better AI seems cool, right?

 

We need a new doom.wad

 

Map design in the DOOM community is the cutting edge of mapping. Did you see how design of "the void" (cyb) was used in the new DOOM2016? Now go watch a trailer for Destiny2:Forsaken and you'll see the same environment of floating islands. You must know the congruences of BRUTAL DOOM and DOOM2016, right? It cannot be overstated how important this community is within the world of gaming. So add some variety to the skyboxes, right?

 

We need a new doom.wad and not a new DOOM game. I am not saying there cannot be a railgun- the point I am making is that a new doom.wad shouldnt be done for the sake of a railgun. The point of a new doom.wad is to enable the players and content creators and competitors to maximize their talents. And that comes back to very simple things that are not congruent but persist within classic DOOM.

 

Everyone plays on source ports these days. Everyone needs to wake up to the fact. I love chocolate but that doesnt mean its my most used port. Be real. We are not all altimamantoid.

 

It seems latent, is all. And i wanted to celebrate the community and emphasize how influential everyone is. I know I came out saying I am the guy you hate. But I am witness to the losses taken place here. And the victories. I think the community should be celebrated. That is why I think it needs to procure a new doom.wad- to be in the echelons of idsoftware. Put it on a sticky and tell everyone to use it (it is basically DOOM2+).

 

You think of it now and consider me an idiot. Did I not say "I am going to theorycraft and analyze and contribute close to nothing"? There is no point to my idea- certainly no need. DOOMII2.wad? But this community is at the top of its game and of great influence. Making an iwad associated with this community is marketing. You dont want to just be "very influential" but also have a product- in this case a rather pointless iwad. In the very act of making an officially recommended doomworld iwad, you create the idea of a living iwad.

 

I mean, just go read the patch notes for SOLDAT.

 

The community will contribute. People will know what behaviors an imp should possess. People will know how accurate a chaingun is supposed to be. We need a new doom.wad that is fed the imput from the community and really solidifies and celebrates and sells the classic and great games of DOOM and DOOM2.

 

You know how they release The Fifth Element every few years? Thats waht this is. You guys do amazing with the cacowards- but that is after the fact. If you have a doom2019.wad and thefollowing year have doom2020.wad and etc each year- well you are not being advertised after the fact, but basically releasing a product. Every year, around the same time, doomworld releases its new iwad (and does textures in HD or adds liquid textures or some new skyboxes and other rather extra stuff) and everytime this occurs its a marketing event.

 

You could time it a month before quakefest. And then make the release relevant. You could do it on valentines day, because reasons.

 

I am saying everyone here is amazing. And I think you all deserve much more recognition.

 

you should hear me talk level design...

 

 

[bonnie]

2 minutes ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

No Rest For The Living is the best DOOM episode.

big if true

[GarrettChan]

I don't feel like there's imbalance in weapons and enemies.

 

24 minutes ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

Everyone plays on source ports these days. Everyone needs to wake up to the fact. I love chocolate but that doesnt mean its my most used port. Be real. We are not all altimamantoid.

I don't get the point of this. He uses PrBoom+.

Edited June 29, 2018 by GarrettChan

[AD_79]

I'm... not entirely sure what you getting at here? From what I'm capable of gathering based on your confusing mountain of text, you essentially want the community to stop using the original IWADs, make a new one and then... constantly update it? First off, the community is terrible at managing an IWAD; one look at Freedoom will tell you that. Second, is there an actual reason to toss out the originals in favour of this, aside from "oh those games are old, let's make a new one and show them how it's really done"? Not only that, but how would that be enforced? What's going to make people want to use this new IWAD? And what would those yearly updates contain, and would there be an actual reason for doing so? What do you actually want from this??

 

A lot of the gameplay changes you suggest can be done with a simple DECORATE edit or, in some cases, even a DEHACKED patch. Not only that, but some of your ideas would make the game worse. Giving the Pain Elemental a melee attack? Getting in a PE's face to block its attack is an important strategy, and punishing players for knowing this would cause the game to be less fun. The hell knight's movement speed is fine as it is, a buff would feel weird in the IWAD. The demon could maybe use a boost, sure, but leave that for gameplay mods and mapsets to take care of. Doom itself doesn't need a balance patch. Mappers and modders are free to supply their own within their own projects. Does this new IWAD have anything to do with new maps at all? Or are you just going to be messing with the gameplay that the maps were balanced around in the first place?

 

As far as I am concerned, there is no point in this existing, particularly if it's an unofficial community-led effort. The community has been around for ages using the original Doom and Doom II IWADs, and that's not going to change. Anything that the modder wants changed or added (such as new textures, HD textures, skies, gameplay changes/additions, all that fun stuff), they can do so through PWADs. We do not need a "new doom.wad", and you seem to know this as well, based on your statement that "there is no point to my idea- certainly no need."

 

And while we're at it, how about you "talk level design"? I'm curious about that bit.

[Grain of Salt]

iwads don't define weapons

 

Doom was always played with mouse and keyboard

 

Why did you write this like you were giving a dramatic speech

[Mk7_Centipede]

eh. The way I see it, people are coming back to doom to play BRUTAL DOOM. So, I offer my advertising advice. They sell bottled water for $2. Im not saying my idea makes sense- I am just saying its how you sell community. You guys have real opportunity rn. You want people to play classic DOOM?- then release the community .pkg (my bad im high).

 

You guys do all these projects together where a bunch of people contribute. You literally already do the thing I suggested. I am just saying put the golden pinky next to a sticky and say "this is 'vanilla' this year".

 

Its not that hard and doesnt really do anything. right? but now its your thing. You add skyboxes and improve the pistol and say "this is how we play classic DOOM". You dont fuck with TNT's bestiary and textures. You just toss a dash of hot sauce on the enchilada.

 

The quality of work being done here is remarkable. Get recognized. You do that by spreading information. An unnecessary DOOM2 update is the most genius way, imo.

 

The idea isnt to stop people from modding- you just recast the standard stats. But then you sell it. Its a community asset.  the doom community asset.

 

So you make mods that say *designed for doomII2.pkg

Its like a 12kb file you have to get. nothing at all really.

and just self-promote.

 

$2 for a bottle of water.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Mk7_Centipede

[Linguica]

28 minutes ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

(my bad im high).

 

Oh, word?

[Reisal]

I think we got a mid-summer post of the year so far.

[Edward850]

34 minutes ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

An unnecessary DOOM2 update is the most genius way, imo.

unnecessary

ʌnˈnɛsəs(ə)ri/

adjective

1. not needed.

[TheMightyHeracross]

No gameplay changes would happen in the theoretical "new doom.wad." That would require a modification of the game's code unless you used ZDoom, 3DGE something like that.

 

I think the Doom IWADs are balanced pretty well as they are. The pistol isn't meant to be any more than a weak starting weapon in the first place and I find occasions where I go to the pump shotgun for its faster fire animation. The monsters don't need to have fancy AI for the hell of it, they all serve their purpose. And as mentioned before, those types of edits are trivial even in old-ass Dehacked, let alone DECORATE, DDF, or ZScript.

 

If everyone ditched the original IWADs and started using new, constantly updating ones, do you know how many existing WADs and PK3s would break? They rely on the stock, never-changing, vanilla assets, even just the regular behavior of the enemies.

 

We wouldn't just need a new .wad, but a new .exe. The source ports would need changes in source code all the time. GZDoom would need to constantly update its gzdoom.pk3 file, and I'm gonna guess Graf is waaaaay to busy as-is to keep track of IWAD updates.

 

Lastly, we have no legal right to distribute edited Doom IWADs anyway, so your idea has 0% chance of working at all, let alone serving a valuable purpose.

 

[xvertigox]

Quote

That is why I think it needs to procure a new doom.wad- to be in the echelons of idsoftware. Put it on a sticky and tell everyone to use it (it is basically DOOM2+).

 

No. This is dumb as fuck. The iwads are the iwads, you can't go trying to improve them to the point of replacing them. People want to play what the team from id created when they play the iwads. If they want more of a challenge they can play any one of the countless pwads released since then. If you want iwads to be harder there's a few options, you can tweak the monsters or maps yourself, use hard doom, use 2x etc but to think that is in anyway better than the iwads is silly.

 

Stims are sweet but fucking lol this is a rambling post of bullshit.

[Pure Hellspawn]

The doom wad is fine as it is.

 

If it's too hard then go play on I'm too young to die.

If it's too easy play on Nightmare or a play a slaughtermap on UV.

If you think the weapons suck then go play or make a weapon in DECORATE or DEHACKED.

If you want a baron that shoots rockets, it exists.

If you want harder maps, or just something different, play a wad or a megawad.

If none of those make you happy, go look for (or make) what you want or play a different game.

Why are you complaining about a game that's maintained it's popularity for a quarter century?

Why aren't you complaining that a dagger in Final Fantasy is useless when you're only 10% done and can buy a Broadsword?

Why don't you just play one of the tens of thousands of levels released such as a megawad or a Total Conversion?

[Fonze]

Entry-level smoker, sit down.

[mun]

I think you meant good. but saying things like this:

3 hours ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

There is no point to my idea

means that you don't expect people to take you seriously. If you have an idea, just say it without fear and clearly.

Your post is very incoherent. Are you saying that the community should make a new iwad with just a new gun and no more changes? There are already a lot of gameplay mods that accomplish that, so copying an entire iwad with only a small change is not only illegal, it's unnecessary.

 

Doomworld is a nice community, but like other communities if you display your ideas in a nonsensical way, you will get ridiculed.

[MTrop]

We have plenty of Doom.wads.

 

They're here.

 

 

Hell, I just made 6 Doom II maps last weekend. That's like... one-sixth of a Doom.wad. You want a new Doom.wad? Make a new Doom.wad.

 

The community already sells itself. We're already pretty recognized. This is a weaksauce call to action, bro.

[NightFright]

We don't need a new DOOM wad. We need people to get used to playing games as they were meant to be played in the 90s. Classics are holy and shall never be touched. If you want to play the game differently, there are plenty of mods made by the community to get you going. If you don't find what you want, create your own. It's as simple as that.

[yakfak]

ok. you've convinced me

here it's finished

doom.zip

[fraggle]

We don't need a new doom.wad.

[leodoom85]

What is this nonsense?

I think post like this deserves its own award.

And my answer is the same as fraggle.....no need to bother to make or modify the IWADs.

Let them alone.

[Cacodemon345]

Who the fuck will make a new/modify a Doom IWAD? We are fine as we are. Is the OP an idiot to be talking such nonsensical things? We don't need Bethesda busting Ling's ass for its site becoming a distribution for illegal material. Go play a Doom mod if you want such things.

[Pegleg]

7 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Who the fuck will make a new/modify a Doom IWAD? We are fine as we are. Is the OP an idiot to be talking such nonsensical things? We don't need Bethesda busting Ling's ass for its site becoming a distribution for illegal material. Go play a Doom mod if you want such things.

@Mk7_Centipede

If all you're doing is adding a dash of spice, and then charging money for it, who is going to pay for that? Yes, yes, I know, $2 bottle of water. But, as stated, Bethesda has shown it is more than willing to nail someone who is trying to turn a profit selling Doom wads on a website.

 

Ultimately, we have numerous TC's. You can play one of them if you're not happy with the iwad experience.

 

And yes, there a number of CP's that this community produces. There are also a number of CP's that die on the vine, never being completed. There's even a thread listing all the defunct and abandoned CP's (truth be told, the list is incomplete, but rather extensive, and illustrative of its point).

 

I'm with AD. Go look at Freedoom if you want to see how the community handles a new IWAD replacement. Better yet, go contribute to Freedoom.

 

And the OP isn't an idiot. As he said, he's just high.

11 hours ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

(my bad im high).

 

At least he didn't write out his entire post in the form of a poem.

[BigDickBzzrak]

I don't get a damn thing you're saying, but I'll be damned if it isn't a hell of an idea!! 

[Jon]

I'd buy that for a dollar! but not 2.

[Battle_Korbi]

I bet the main idea behind this wasn't really to throw away Doom 1 or Doom 2, but to kinda create a new platform for dooming I guess: a new alternative standard that would have it's own gameplay mechanics, stats, whatever, for people to make stuff on; kinda like for people who had grown tired of the "ye olde" style and seek a change, one that isn't 100% their effort (say, see others make maps for this specific new type of "Doom" and stuff). Behind that idea, I can get. Sure, it would pose a great imbalance to the "older" maps, who were tailored around Doom 2's gameplay, but, the new "Doom" would work well on it's own.

 

But this new platform would be akin to a new FPS game, and that is, I guess, the problem here (plus all the licenses and stuff). I guess this idea is something above a regular "gameplay mod", I bet, something like for people who map for Hexen or Heretic. No matter how many similarities you try to draw together, Doom and Heretic would never be the same. And the similar situation would be with Doom 2 and "the new Doom".

Thing is, I won't need to get into this since everyone else said it, but it ain't simple, and it would need to be open-source, free and whatever - but I guess, if a new "Doom" would come out of community effort, I think I would certainly like it, and probably other people as well. But it seems like it will take a plenty more time (decades at least) for the modern day Doom community to collectively get tired of Doom 2 :D

[Liberation]

I didn't really read the ranting OP.

 

However a doom3.wad that builds on from doom2.wad like it did with the original doom could actually be a good idea, if done correctly.

 

EDIT: in before I get bombard with "like every mod ever".

 

I mean similar to an official iwad as if ID made 1 more doom game back in the day, although ID assets would be an issue clearly for us today.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Liberation

[eharper256]

Personally I'd say its blasphemy to think one should replace the original iwads. Its true all us oldies way outskill them these days, but there is a degree of cathasis in going back to E1M1 with 5 monsters and having a chill and appreciating the basic architecture. We don't need to slaughter up the iwads to make them playable (and in any case, that's kinda already been done with Maps of Chaos). And if you want a rebalance that makes certain things more relevant, the GZDoom forums have them in spades (Most notably, Beautiful Doom also rebalances the original arsenal in a mostly lore friendly way; and MetaDoom and Brutal Doom are options as well).

 

Besides, we've already had the "re-id" renaissance with the whole 'Doom Way the ID did' surge of maps. This alone is a wonderful thing.

 

Its admirable to want the community to get more recognition for its achievements, but ultimately, we shouldn't do that by being chained to the past of the original iwads and being stuck in a cycle of recreating things that shouldn't be changed in the first place.

 

tl;dr: The original Doom ain't broke, don't fix it. Its a foundation on which we have made one of the longest lived mod communities ever.

[Jon]

If someone did this, the original IWADs won’t go away, so I don’t buy the “if it ain’t broke” argument.  I don’t have a problem with the idea, but talking about it alone won’t go anywhere.

[xvertigox]

17 hours ago, Fonze said:

Entry-level smoker, sit down.

 

It's not weed that he's smoking.

[Resigned_34]

I thought this was a bad attempt at slam poetry at first...

[Mayomancer]

HDoom fills all the gaps in the classic Doom experience