(Private alphas in progress) Infernew, a Community Project

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I'll work out some of the kinks, but given the difference in playstyle, it'll be difficult to say which is easiest and which is hardest. HNTR should be easy to change, and I'll work out HMP, but I don't think I'll be changing UV much.

I tried to keep mine somewhat short, and it can be, but I've got a bit of a thing for large maps.

Expect an update in a day or two.

[xdarkmasterx]

oh ok, V2 released

 

-all archviles and most revenants replaced with imps and hellknights on difficulties below UV after difficulty complaints (so far level isn't tested on difficulties under UV so if it's easy/boring i can add some of them back)

 

-added ammo to all difficulties

 

-aligned some textures inside main building

 

-visplane error should be fixed (visplane explorer shows no error)

 

Map Name: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7j3oi78pdcggxcx/church_of_satan_V2.wad?dl=0

 

Most inspired by mt erebus, pandemonium

Build time: 1 day

Music: sign of evil

Coop support: (4 starts, no lockouts)

DM support: (starts only)

Demo: coming soon

 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by xdarkmasterx

[sarge945]

Here is a massively updated version of my map. It's looking good, and I consider it about 85-95% done at this point. This is my first real map (aka my first one that will be reviewed by/looked at by the public), so please don't be too harsh if you think it has issues.

 

This map is somewhat difficult, but not insanely so. It has no cyberdemons or masterminds, and the hardest part is the Baron fight or the single Arch Vile (which only spawns on hard difficulty), so I would consider this a "medium difficulty" map, maybe somewhere around MAP10-MAP15 in the order.

 

I am looking for feedback on what I should change and what you like/dislike about the map, if the level of detail is acceptable, and other things like that.

 

I have tested it on Chocolate Doom and it runs with no issues.

 

This map is designed for a pistol start, but it should run perfectly fine without one.

 

Map info is here:

 

Most inspired by: Hell Keep, although it's not a typical "first level", it just retains similar aesthetics to that level, and some other parts of E3

Build time: 3-4 days on-off, I would say about 10-15 hours total.

Music: Hell Keep

Difficulty Support: Different enemies, ammo and health pickups scaled to accomodate. Tested on all difficulties except baby and nightmare.

Coop support: 4 spawns, not tested. Should work fine.

DM support: 4 spawns, not tested. Care has been taken to prevent lockouts, as all one-way doors can be opened up from the other side if there is a spawn there.

Demo: coming when map is 100%

looking_better.zip

[HAK3180]

Alright, so here's an extremely n00b question that I nonetheless ask with no shame...

 

 

If in over 20 years of shooting demons I have never even thought about Doom multiplayer, what do I need to know?

 

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Basically, you want to make it so that it plays somewhat similarly to single player, but you have to account for up to four players in the same space at a given time, so resistance has to increase some, but they'll also need extra ammo.

Since we're sort of balancing for DM, too, You'll need to place a few more weapons about so that it doesn't end up being a slog looking for the best weapons, but since this is Doom format, they will appear on coop, too, which shouldn't be much of an issue.

So your real concerns should be directed toward scaling monster resistance, ammunition, and health/armor.

[sarge945]

10 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

Alright, so here's an extremely n00b question that I nonetheless ask with no shame...

 

 

If in over 20 years of shooting demons I have never even thought about Doom multiplayer, what do I need to know?

 

 

For the purposes of mapping, you need to know the following:

 

1. You need 4 player starts, which are all seperate objects (NOT 4 player 1 starts), for each player in coop. Normally these start near each other, but don't have to

2. You need at least 4 deathmatch starts, although more is preferred.

3. You should place down some weapons as "multiplayer only" for deathmatch. While not necessarily true, coop players will generally have multiplayer weapons turned off if they are playing a modern port like Zandronum, so there is no shame in putting a BFG right at the start of the map - Doom 2 does it.

4. Any areas that can only be accessed one-way need to be accounted for in multiplayer. A door that only opens on one side, for example, may break Deathmatch if there is a deathmatch spawn on the wrong side of it, as that player will not be able to escape. This is the most important part of designing maps for multiplayer,

[bonnie]

8 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

If in over 20 years of shooting demons I have never even thought about Doom multiplayer, what do I need to know?

Basically what they said, but I'll say stuff too for funsies. Don't worry about DM unless you believe your map would be amazing for DM. In vanilla you only have a single multiplayer flag, so multiplayer-only things will appear in both coop and DM.

 

Doom II decided to put weapons in balanced around DM and then occasionally put enemies in to balance coop around the weapons, but Doom II coop actually plays like garbage so please don't use that as an example. Just focus on the coop experience and remember that people will play in a variety of ways with different rules regarding multiplayer things, respawning (the survival gamemode where you get limited lives is quite popular), among other things.

 

I've noticed that the best coop experiences in wads are typically designed for either people who've already played the wad before and are looking for a "new game+" style experience (like scythe 2) or for people playing through it for the first time and thus having a slightly adjusted yet fair experience (I don't have any examples). Rarely does just doing nonsense like throwing in a BFG and 20 cyberdemons work out well.

 

tl;dr unless your map is perfect for dm, just put dm starts in to prevent crashes and exclusively balance around coop

 

If you want, we can get some people together and play some wads together on Zandronum and even test some of the maps that've been submitted to far to give you some multiplayer experience c:

[HAK3180]

Cool, thanks. 

 

So when people say "starts only" or similar, that means the only extra Things are Player 2 start, Player 3 start, Player 4 start, and at least four Player deathmatch starts?

 

And as far as deathmatch starts, players appear randomly at any one of them when they first spawn and respawn?

 

And lastly, what about keys/locked doors in deathmatch? Just avoid open wait close actions? Or make sure to place lots of keys?

 

I promise this might be all my questions...

 

EDIT: One more: should player starts 2-4 and deathmatch starts be checked as "multiplayer" or only the extra goodies?

Edited July 7, 2018 by HAK3180

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Starts only means that coop starts (2-8) do exist, but the rest of the map is not balanced for coop.

Yes, players spawn randomly at DM starts.

On DM, players have all keys so that locked doors aren't a problem.

[Test Tickle]

3 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

TL;DR: The map is too small for all the large enemies that populate it. More low-tier monsters would be appropriate and reducing step heights and broadening the corridors would do wonders for allowing the monsters to roam. The concept is really nice, though, I'd rather you kept it.

Aight, i'll try to improve it when i can.

[Scypek2]

I started working on my map! I have a rough idea for the whole thing, too.

[AustroDoomer]

1 hour ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

Starts only means that coop starts (2-8) do exist, but the rest of the map is not balanced for coop.

Yes, players spawn randomly at DM starts.

On DM, players have all keys so that locked doors aren't a problem.

I already knew that about DM and coop play.All of the maps in a old megawad

that I currently reworking has 4 player starts and DM starts, but its

only tested in single player.I'm pretty sure thats not playable with more than 1 player.

(doors close, walls raise only one time.... and the other players get trapped)

 

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I... wasn't answering you, I was answering HAK3180.

He was the one asking these questions because he needed to know.

[bonnie]

@HAK3180 Starts only doesn't neccessarily mean 4 DM starts, it could potentially mean just one start. On that note, if you only have one start, the map won't crash in DM but it'll result in players telefragging each other constantly since they have no other place to spawn.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with the whole keys and doors thing. Unless you're adding a dm arena outside your map (which exist by the way, such as in plutonia map30), you really shouldn't be changing up the single player experience exclusively for DM purposes unless, again, the map would be perfect for DM.

 

As for marking multiplayer starts as multiplayer only, it doesn't make a difference. They won't be used in single player and they'll always be there in multiplayer, unless you map for boom and flag them as "not in coop" and "not in deathmatch".

 

Extremely important: please remember to add coop safe switches and teleporters and whatnot to prevent softlocks. Just imagine beating your level but then getting teleported back to the start of the level and having to progress through it again in the same state you left it in. If you can't do it, you'll need to adapt it for coop. Or like if you all went into a room and everyone died, would the map break?

 

If you need to, you can do "-solo-net" in pr/glboom to test maps in coop with just yourself, complete with respawning, multiplayer things, and all that good stuff. Obviously it isn't horribly helpful for balancing purposes or testing DM however. On that note, I totally forgot that chocolate doom has multiplayer capabilities, so that's totally an option if you're interested c:

[Test Tickle]

The_Carcass.zip

An updated version of my map, tried to balance everything in the level

Edited August 3, 2018 by pc234

[xvertigox]

3 hours ago, sarge945 said:

Here is a massively updated version of my map. It's looking good, and I consider it about 85-95% done at this point. This is my first real map (aka my first one that will be reviewed by/looked at by the public), so please don't be too harsh if you think it has issues.

looking_better.zip

 

Overall, I liked the map. The detailing was felt appropriate for Inferno map and it definitely had E3 vibes to it. I played on UV and had no problem with the difficulty then made a stupid mistake towards the end with the Barons and AV. There might have been a bit too much shotgun ammo. There's an issue with the yellow key that gets lowered, if you run over that sector it keeps making lowering sounds (tested in Crispy Doom).

[xvertigox]

45 minutes ago, pc234 said:

The_Carcass.zip

An updated version of my map, tried to balance everything in the level

 

Interesting map. Doesn't feel very Inferno-y to me tbh. I had fun playing it but if this was a standalone wad I never would have pegged that it was inspired by e3.

 

These 3 linedefs need a texture on back side lower otherwise you get a HOM. I haven't checked any of the other sectors next to lowering walls but it's worth looking into.

 

Spoiler

 

[Test Tickle]

9 minutes ago, xvertigox said:

Interesting map. Doesn't feel very Inferno-y to me tbh. I had fun playing it but if this was a standalone wad I never would have pegged that it was inspired by e3.

Thanks for the feedback, sorry if it doesn't feel as inferno as I thought it was, I got carried away with flesh textures

[Test Tickle]

17 minutes ago, xvertigox said:

These 3 linedefs need a texture on back side lower otherwise you get a HOM. I haven't checked any of the other sectors next to lowering walls but it's worth looking into.

  Hide contents

 

Strange, when opened in the map editor, it does have a back side. It's probably just an error I don't know of, i'll fix it once i get the chance.

^{edit: oops, multiple comments.}

[xvertigox]

On 7/8/2018 at 10:21 AM, pc234 said:

Thanks for the feedback, sorry if it doesn't feel as inferno as I thought it was, I got carried away with flesh textures

 

I think it'd work well as a secret level for sure.

 

Here's my release.

 

Map Name: Doomed to Suffer [DOWNLOAD]

Most inspired by: E3M4 House Of Pain was the initial inspiration but very quickly the map veered away from it.

Build time: ~15hr

Music: Children Of Bodom - Bed of Razors

Coop support: Limited (starts + map adjusted to prevent softlocks)

DM support: Starts only

Description: None yet, might add one later.

Demo: Pending playtesting to confirm it's ready for release.

Screenshots: Here

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by xvertigox : Updated to v1.9

[jerrysheppy]

I've only posted 2D editor views so far, so here's a glimpse in GZDB's 3D mode of the sort of architecture I'm making:

 

 

NB: The player start there is just for testing and the player will not start there in the final map.

 

Also, since I don't think I ever actually said it, you can change me from "interested" to definitely going to finish and submit this map for the project, barring some sort of catastrophe.

[sarge945]

6 hours ago, xvertigox said:

 

Overall, I liked the map. The detailing was felt appropriate for Inferno map and it definitely had E3 vibes to it. I played on UV and had no problem with the difficulty then made a stupid mistake towards the end with the Barons and AV. There might have been a bit too much shotgun ammo. There's an issue with the yellow key that gets lowered, if you run over that sector it keeps making lowering sounds (tested in Crispy Doom).

 

Thanks for the feedback! I tend to almost run out of Shotgun ammo in the map, so perhaps you had a particularly good run or used the minigun a lot. I will have a look at maybe reducing shotgun ammo a little.

 

As for the lowering sounds, I can't really do much about that. Unfortunately Doom doesn't have a W1 "Lower to 8 above highest floor", only a WR version, so I used the WR version, which means it still works, but makes annoying noises occasionally. In most source ports (like zdoom) it makes no sound, and this is a bug I am happy to live with as the gameplay benefits are worth it for a small sound issue.

 

I have a more up-to-date version which fixes some Multiplayer stuck issues, and also balances DM a little. I don't think it's a particularly amazing DM map, but it is definitely serviceable as one, since the arenas aren't too bad. More importantly, it adds an Armor pickup and as a result drastically lowers the number of health kits. I will upload it a little later

 

I do appreciate hearing feedback, so thanks for taking the time to play the map.

Edited July 8, 2018 by sarge945

[Pegleg]

On 7/6/2018 at 6:39 PM, jerrysheppy said:

Bonnie can correct me if they want to, but my impression is that no one needs to pick out specific E3 map(s) and imitate them.

 

 

Basically as long as you're doing something "low-fi, zany Hell" enough that it seems like it could fit in the original Episode 3, I'd think you should be good.

 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:43 PM, AD_79 said:

 

That's what I gathered as well, and not doing so is a far superior approach anyways, I would say. It's somewhat disappointing seeing so many mappers deliberately creating homages to the original maps. We know the originals. Please give us stuff in the E3 theme but with its own unique identity!

 

My take was that bonnie was interested in Hell maps, and if you were inspired by a particular feature in one of the E3 maps, then all the better. Personally, I started with a few features that I liked in Pandemonium and House of Pain, but my map itself has grown from there. The bottom line is, make a map that would fit in a "Hell" episode that looks like it could have been in an Inferno-esque episode and you're good.

 

Also, as you can tell from some of the discussions, people will look at different maps and get different vibes from them, because everyone is different.

[sarge945]

Okay, I consider this basically final. I am very happy with how this has turned out, and I would very much like to know if there are any glaring issues that people can find with this map, otherwise this will probably be my "official" version. I would give infinite respect to anyone who could record a demo for me, preferably on UV. @bonnie you can add this map to the OP if you want, also please note that difficulty wise, I would put it between map 8 and map 12, but I will let you decide where it fits :).

 

Here are some screenshots. Taken in ZDoom, since I don't like the low res nature of old doom screenshots :(

 

Fortress of Despair Version 1.1: Fortress of Despair.7z (bonfortress_1_1.wad)

Most inspired by: E3M1/E3M9 (Hells Keep/Warrens)

Build time: 20-25 hours

Music: Hells Keep (E3M1 music)

Coop support: Spawns created, stuck spots prevented, extra monsters added. Not balanced around Weapon placement, as it is intended for Deathmatch, but should run well in a source port that allows MP enemies but not MP weapons to be spawned

DM support: More than 4 starts, each with a nice piece of starting equipment. Game should be mostly balanced. Stuck spots prevented. Red key area opens up all in one go for DM. Should play rather well, but largely untested.

Description: You step into hell, to be greeted by not one, but three fortresses. Scouring the maze of traps, ambushes, and harsh battles, you finally pave a way to the exit, an ominous white teleporter - to the next level of hell.

Screenshots: See spoiler in this thread

Demo File: A Casual UV Run is provided in the archive

 

UPDATE Version 1.0: 7/8/2018 10:47 PM: Added a switch to open the grates in coop, since the WR openers were too noisy, plus they were inaccessible to any coop players who didn't already have the red or yellow keys, making the whole thing pointless. New demo provided since the old one desynched

 

UPDATE: Version 1.1: 7/13/2018 4:02 AM: Fixed some texture alignment issues. Changed up the Baron fight a bit, play to find out! Changed Blue Key fight to have more imps and less skulls

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by sarge945 : clarification. Added images to spoiler. added demo to archive

[Darox]

1 hour ago, sarge945 said:

 

As for the lowering sounds, I can't really do much about that. Unfortunately Doom doesn't have a W1 "Lower to 8 above highest floor", only a WR version, so I used the WR version, which means it still works, but makes annoying noises occasionally. In most source ports (like zdoom) it makes no sound, and this is a bug I am happy to live with as the gameplay benefits are worth it for a small sound issue.

 

There is a W1 trigger, the filter helps a lot for these things.

The other thing you can do is join all those lowering sectors together into one, since they all have the same heights & flats. That way you'll only have one sector moving and prevent the pretty awful sounds vanilla doom makes when multiple sectors are moving at the same time.

 

As for recording a demo, run your doom port of choice with the added command line " -record yourdemoname.lmp "

The prboom+ pack bonnie has in the first post even has a .bat file already to make it easy.

[sarge945]

On 7/5/2018 at 10:57 PM, xdarkmasterx said:

ok the map is complete you can download here

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7j3oi78pdcggxcx/church_of_satan_V2.wad?dl=0

 

I found a bug in your map. Also the map is way, way, way too hard, but that's a different issue

 

[sarge945]

20 minutes ago, Darox said:

 

There is a W1 trigger, the filter helps a lot for these things.

The other thing you can do is join all those lowering sectors together into one, since they all have the same heights & flats. That way you'll only have one sector moving and prevent the pretty awful sounds vanilla doom makes when multiple sectors are moving at the same time.

 

As for recording a demo, run your doom port of choice with the added command line " -record yourdemoname.lmp "

The prboom+ pack bonnie has in the first post even has a .bat file already to make it easy.

Oh thanks! I will update my map, and record a demo

[Pegleg]

13 hours ago, bonnie said:

Anyways, I want to talk about what I have played, and issue out some caveats: Please please please don't try to make your map overly long or overly difficult, nor should you try to put some grand finale in each map. We're likely looking at a full 32 maps here, so don't be scared to make short and (somewhat) easy maps. The maps I've played so far have been trying a bit too hard.

 

I'm almost done with what I choose to call the "layout" or the level. I have almost all of the sectors drawn, including what will be the farthest extremes of the map. Size-wise, it's coming in comparable in size to E3M3 (at least, when looking at it in an editor). Couple that with 2 areas that are effectively optional (although helpful) and this means that the map should meet the "not overly long" category.

 

13 hours ago, bonnie said:

oh well, happy mapping

 

Thank you, friend.

[xdarkmasterx]

18 minutes ago, sarge945 said:

I found a bug in your map. Also the map is way, way, way too hard, but that's a different issue

 

that bug is fixed in latest version

 

also on difficulty under UV is the map easier (no archviles, less revenant, more health and ammo)

[sarge945]

23 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

that bug is fixed in latest version

 

also on difficulty under UV is the map easier (no archviles, less revenant, more health and ammo)

 

Okay. I downloaded the file from the post linked in the OP, I don't know if that's the latest version. You may need to update that post

 

There is a W1 trigger, the filter helps a lot for these things.

The other thing you can do is join all those lowering sectors together into one, since they all have the same heights & flats. That way you'll only have one sector moving and prevent the pretty awful sounds vanilla doom makes when multiple sectors are moving at the same time.

 

As for recording a demo, run your doom port of choice with the added command line " -record yourdemoname.lmp "

The prboom+ pack bonnie has in the first post even has a .bat file already to make it easy.

 

I have fixed the issue, and another issue as well where you could hear a "thunk" every time you entered one of the doors, as there was a walk trigger line to lower the bars for multiplayer. I moved it further away to where it's (almost) inaudible. My OP is updated.

 

I am so bad at the original game (Chocolate Doom) and am so used to playing on GZDoom, that I am having a lot of trouble completing my map for demo purposes :(

Edited July 8, 2018 by sarge945 : MOAR!