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bonnie

(Private alphas in progress) Infernew, a Community Project

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I dunno if Bonnie did something horrible that I missed, but creative differences don't mean being hateful. And being glad that someone who wants to leave is leaving, as you described... doesn't strike me as exceptionally mean. I doubt Bonnie would be "glad" if they were going to leave the whole community, or something like that. But this is just one specific community project that Bonnie seems to have a pretty firm idea about. Some projects have heavily moderated submissions, some not much or not at all, and I think that's fair.

 

Anyway, I'll probably upload a new version of my map soon. I'm pretty fond of that starting area, but it's clearly gimmicky in a questionable way and doesn't have much to do with the rest of the map. I'll probably get rid of it entirely (to use elsewhere, perhaps? I do have a D1 project in the works...) and expand the main area instead.

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@Phade102 I don't know who you are, or what I did to hurt you, or why you kept joining the discord to spam paragraph after paragraph about how I'm a scammer and how I don't contribute anything, or why you won't talk to me or respond to my DMs, but you aren't hurting me, you're hurting everyone in the project by saying these strange, wildly incorrect statements. Please respond to my DMs on discord so I can understand why you're so upset.

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In that case, I'll probably withdraw my map from the pile and use it somewhere.

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I second AD_79's comment.

Sorry Bonnie and I'll be honest with you, you're not acting as a proper leader but as a common boss. You only want results and in a quick way. In fact, that mentalism of yours lead you to this state, where most folks are retrieving their maps to use it for better purposes. If you don't change that defeated mentalism, whatever project you're leading will be doomed from the start. 

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Pretty much what ad's said it's on point, not to mention that the feedback from the project leader not just came late (with some long periods of complete silence), but also was really unhelpful (and sometimes rather aggressive and rude), having some maps getting rejected without a proper explanation. And even worse there's the case of a couple of maps that didn't received any feedback from bonnie early on, and received many updates and changes, only to be rejected now, making all those updates useless and actually wasting the mappers time.

At this point, it doesn’t matter very much since I withdrew and everything that had to be said has been said, but it’s kinda sad to see this chaotic and unclear direction take the lead of this project. To those that do continue despite the direction I wish you good luck especially since there are some great submissions, but the lack of respect bonnie has to the mappers that are contributing to this project it’s infuriating

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If only there was a good e3 community project, this one was the most popular this year and it turned to shit :( which accordingly is going to cause people to not want to do another one. This thread has over 26k views which makes it relatively really popular and it is just a big wasted opportunity :(

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tl;dr: AD_79's post is false statement after false statement and he and Phade are trying to destroy the project and the works of 20 people over claims that are demonstrably false. Don't fall for it. Read below if you want an in-depth breakdown of each one of his claims as well as explanations for certain happenings over the last two days.

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4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

After this, who exactly is going to want to contribute?

I held back a lot with my response to Phade, but clearly that wasn't the right move. So let's talk.

 

###################################

 

I want to also preface this by saying: Yes, I've made mistakes (not that many of which you've actually mentioned), but through it all I've still been trying to put the project first. I wish I did some things better, yeah. I wish I started the project earlier to give myself more time to actually wrap up the project when I wanted to instead of going on the hiatus (although I still put in quite a bit of behind-the-scenes work during said hiatus), which absolutely shouldn't have been as long as it was. I wish I spent just an extra day to finish up my map instead of getting excited and pulling the trigger early (which led to slots getting filled up insanely fast, making me reconsider my plan of making multiple small maps and instead make a longer more complex map which brought work on it to a standstill). And yes, I wish I was better at giving positive feedback. But none of these things should be resulting in the sudden dismantling of the project, considering that (depending on how fast maps get updated) the first private alpha will likely be released next weekend, and the project should be essentially complete and ready for idgames by early-mid November (barring anything unexpected like additional maps being submitted).

 

Now let's get something else out of the way before we get into this:

I have very real, very justifiable reasons for rejecting Naza's second map (Gateway) with nothing more than a simple "no." Besides those reasons, it still felt like a low-effort, low-quality map that he almost certainly should have expected to have greeted with either heavy criticism or outright rejection on my part. He started with a map as good as his first map (Sinner) yet followed it up with a giant, literally empty (outside of buildings and one alcove) brown... place with only 5 spots with enemies throughout the entire thing. Compare that to Mt Erebus. Mt Erebus was bright, colorful, big. It had lots to do and explore, and had enemies scattered about with more continually repopulating the outside. Gateway was nothing like that. Was it salvageable? Of course! Anybody could have fixed it, but Naza had already displayed that he had little intention of listening to feedback with Sinner, so there was no way he would ever come close to making the revisions needed for it to be accepted. It's a shame too since that AV fight was pretty sick, even though it really has no place in the project as we've already got lots of episode-ending worthy maps.

 

###################################

 

Now let's tackle this bit by bit:

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

Bonnie's behaviour as a leader has not been acceptable, being rather rude at times and tossing out some decent maps that have solid potential without blinking an eye, sometimes with the word "no" masquerading as feedback.

Yes, I've been rude in my feedback, and it's been a serious problem throughout the project. It's nothing personal, just my inability to put positive remarks into my feedback, unless it's something really special, as otherwise it's just a bunch of generic compliments. I want to be better with it, but I just haven't been able to. It would probably be a lot better if we could use that voice-recording prboom+ fork, as I definitely say and think quite positive things in the moment that I don't know how to put into feedback without, again, making them generic compliments. I wish I wasn't like this, but I also wish you wouldn't lie about stuff either.

 

I would LOVE to hear you give some examples of me "tossing out some decent maps that have solid potential without blinking an eye." I'd also like to hear you list the maps that I've said only "no" to, besides Gateway which I've already explained part of the reasoning for above.

 

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

Not only that, but the project does not have a firm idea behind it as far as I can tell. The whole concept is "I dunno, make episode 3-y maps I guess" without any strong examples of what this actually implies.

I've said since the start that they just need to be Episode 3-inspired maps (preferably inspired by specific maps to avoid having generic hell maps) of decent effort and quality with decent ammo balance (among other things). Episode 3-inspired could mean a lot of things, and it wouldn't make sense to make the definition any stricter as it could put a stranglehold on the quality of the project. One thing I've also been clear about but never made it an official rule: you need to have at least some understanding of the map(s) you're being inspired by. This is why people like that guy with the e3m1 style map got kicked out. Besides ignoring and protesting feedback from multiple people, he lacked a fundamental understanding of what makes e3m1 work, which is why he ended up with "64-unit hallways and flesh courtyards: the map". We even had lengthy discussions about the ideas behind the project both in the thread and discord, but who cares about stuff like that, right?

 

These ideas alone are more than enough to put together maps without maybe issues. Didn't get it to my impossible standards? Don't worry, just listen to feedback (even if mine is mean, although you really could have swayed me if you gave a compelling, reasonable argument for why you felt part of my feedback was wrong) and you can just update it from there. No maps have been rejected on a whim or without explanation (aside from Gateway initially). Everybody was given a chance. Heck, even @Pegleg is getting a another chance despite how hard I was on him, and even though he might need a lot of time to fix it up, I still want to work with him because he's committed and has put a lot into the project for us. Double heck, I even wanted to keep Sinner and hope Naza would just drop the Gateway business, but obviously he wasn't going to. People on the chopping block in my feedback post aren't fully removed yet, they're just in danger of being removed without making further updates, as most of them received feedback months ago and either still haven't updated or updated but mostly ignored said feedback. The only exception to this have been people who were kicked out and thus had their maps removed as a result.

 

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

Not to mention that whole debacle with Aquila's maps a while back.

What debacle? You mean how he heard something on twitch and misunderstood, instead believing we were talking behind his back and threatened to leave before Hak came by and purposely said the one thing AC said would make him leave? How is any of that my fault?

 

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

Seriously, this project is a mess and as far as I'm concerned, believing in the leadership as it currently stands is a mistake.

Do you have any legitimate reasons to believe it's in as dire a state as you claim or are you just gonna make more sensationalist statements?

 

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

You had to go out of your way to alienate your contributors, even ones who before could not have cared about your reputation and just wanted to create something for fun.

But surely you agree there should still be some form of quality control, right? Don't worry, you don't have to answer that, because you were one of the people pushing for more quality control the hardest. Interesting how life changes.

 

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

It doesn't help your case that you still do not have much to show on your end in terms of mapping for your project. I've said it before, this would be so useful in determining a baseline for quality, what you want to see from people and what you do not, I don't know, anything.

You do know where you are, right? You're on the OP of the doomworld thread. Yeah, that one. The one that I repeatedly informed you and DMPhobos that my nearly finished (at the time) yet beatable map had been on since the start of the project. You could have played it and (ignoring the enemies, rushed exit, and crusher area) could have gotten somewhat of an idea of what I was trying for. But sure, just pull even more instantly disprovable nonsense out your ass.

 

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

Oh, and one more thing. Thinking about starting up another project before this one is even done, and seeing it in the state it's currently in no less, is downright insulting.

Much of that next project talk was referring to things I wished I had considered before starting Infernew and what I hoped to do differently in the future, though I do agree I should have saved the initial talk until after feedback was given. That was pretty stupid of me, and I'm genuinely sorry about it. I know you probably don't care or believe my apology, but I'm still sorry.

 

But what state exactly is the project in? It was coming along fine and was finally nearing completion, only for Phade to come in and spout a bunch of gibberish which you apparently ate up despite how wrong it was, resulting in you and DMPhobos spreading even more weird lies and confusion, breaking everything up. In fact, that really begs the question: why DID Phade and you guys wait for the project to get back on track to try to tear it apart? Why couldn't you have done so during the hiatus, when it made sense?

 

###################################

 

I mean what's wrong with you? You guys make up stuff and lie to people to hurt the project and hurt the ~20 people still committed to the project, who just wanted to make something cool and vanilla and inferno inspired. You guys say stuff like I'm rejecting maps people have worked on for months with no explanation when I'm giving them the chance to continue updating because they ignored the feedback they received months prior, or how there's no clear strict definition for the project when it's designed to have a more loose definition which I've already provided, or, the very best one, that I'm not even making a map??? I cannot and will not stand for this at all.

 

Now for other responses:

Spoiler
4 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

I second AD_79's comment.

Sorry Bonnie and I'll be honest with you, you're not acting as a proper leader but as a common boss. You only want results and in a quick way. In fact, that mentalism of yours lead you to this state, where most folks are retrieving their maps to use it for better purposes. If you don't change that defeated mentalism, whatever project you're leading will be doomed from the start. 

...what? I don't think you quite understand what's been going on, unless you've secretly been in the discord. Don't follow in their footsteps of making random accusations.

 

@DMPhobos Why did you start believing Phade too??

 

2 hours ago, therektafire said:

If only there was a good e3 community project, this one was the most popular this year and it turned to shit :( which accordingly is going to cause people to not want to do another one. This thread has over 26k views which makes it relatively really popular and it is just a big wasted opportunity :(

Unfortunately for you, this one is still alive and well, and the awesome heckish maps the people still on board have made are still coming to fruition. The only thing wasted is the potential of mappers who are getting deceived by false claims.

 

So, one final time:

4 hours ago, AD_79 said:

After this, who exactly is going to want to contribute?

Hopefully not people like you or phade, if you truly only want to spread lies and tear the project apart.

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####################################################

 

tl;dr: AD_79's post is false statement after false statement and he and Phade are trying to destroy the project and the works of 20 people over claims that are demonstrably false. Don't fall for it.

Edited by bonnie : added 2 tl;drs as post is quite long

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7 minutes ago, bonnie said:

...what? I don't think you quite understand what's been going on, unless you've secretly been in the discord. Don't follow in their footsteps of making random accusations.

To finish this annoying situation that you're facing, I do understand what is happening and I'm not in the server by the way but, it's not hard to get the picture of the whole mess that you provoked. Bye and good luck, use it well because you'll need it.

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21 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

To finish this annoying situation that you're facing, I do understand what is happening and I'm not in the server by the way but, it's not hard to get the picture of the whole mess that you provoked. Bye and good luck, use it well because you'll need it.

Except I didn't provoke it. That's the point.

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2 hours ago, therektafire said:

If only there was a good e3 community project, this one was the most popular this year and it turned to shit :( which accordingly is going to cause people to not want to do another one. This thread has over 26k views which makes it relatively really popular and it is just a big wasted opportunity :(

 

Well, the good news in that regard would be that there's an ample supply of e3-inspired maps that are now left without a home.  Someone who could get those mappers onboard would have a head start on releasing something!

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I didnt start this, bonnie. as much as you'll deny it, the fact is I merely stated what was on everybodys mind.

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11 minutes ago, DMPhobos said:

it was your mocking and aggresive behaviour leading this project with no respect for the people that are contribuiting to it

Aggressive sure, but I didn't exactly mock anybody.

 

11 minutes ago, DMPhobos said:

and you let people update their maps that you already knew you weren’t gonna accept (such as ‘Apocrypha of Punishment’) wasting their efforts

Hey thanks for reminding me! I still haven't played the updated version, if you recall the discord discussion in which I was informed that the map had been updated to fix many of the issues I had with the version I played and planned to reject, and that I promised to play the latest version. You can keep making things up though, if it makes you feel better.

 

As for the rest of your post, I assume you just skipped right to where I mentioned you in it because I already explained literally everything you just complained about, real or otherwise.

 

edit: @Phade102 I don't think me being a scammer and me supposedly having not and not intending to ever contribute a single thing to the project were things on anybody's mind before you showed up.

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In... well, not really in defense of bonnie, but in the interest of fairness, the critiques that bonnie made of my map were decent and in some cases improved it.  They were presented in a way that was, let's say, sometimes unnecessarily lacking in pleasantry; but, in my case, they weren't completely wrongheaded.

 

That said, I also looked at the way bonnie was treating some of the other folks.  In particular, I think it was @sarge945-- whoever had the Hell Keep inspired map that was one of the earliest maps to be rudely booted from the project despite myself and other folks not seeing what the hell (heh) was wrong with it-- that made me lose confidence that it was likely to be a pleasant experience or that I would be able to revise my map in a way that would ultimately be up to bonnie's (seemingly idiosyncratic) standards for what qualified as an Inferno-inspired map.  In hindsight this seems to have been part of the same trend as NaZa's second map, though unlike Sarge's, I haven't played NaZa's.

 

So that was when I bailed.  Weird as it seems to say it, the coming out into the light of this remaining drama has actually been a bit of a relief for me, since it confirms for me that I wasn't actually being overly sensitive and was in fact seeing the writing on the wall of what would become a problem for others as well.

 

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Made some quick changes to both maps in respect to the feedback. Urth_Infernew.zip

 

I've moved on to working on other things now, so I will no longer be working on these maps. Feel free to edit them further and use (or not) as you see fit.

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12 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

That said, I also looked at the way bonnie was treating some of the other folks.  In particular, I think it was @sarge945-- whoever had the Hell Keep inspired map that was one of the earliest maps to be rudely booted from the project despite myself and other folks not seeing what the hell (heh) was wrong with it-- that made me lose confidence that it was likely to be a pleasant experience or that I would be able to revise my map in a way that would ultimately be up to bonnie's (seemingly idiosyncratic) standards for what qualified as an Inferno-inspired map.  In hindsight this seems to have been part of the same trend as NaZa's second map, though unlike Sarge's, I haven't played NaZa's.

 

Yes, that was my map.

 

I am not interested in starting drama or stirring the pot, but the main issue I had with the project at the time was the inconsistency of feedback. Map area A was considered bad, so I would change it, only to be told it was now even worse, despite addressing the specific points raised.

 

Needless to say, I was about ready to bail before the map was booted anyway.

This has been an extremely unpleasant first-experience working on a community project and I will be very carefully considering which projects I join in the future, if any.

Edited by sarge945 : typo

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infernewScypek_UncannyVillage_v1.3.zip

 

I did some major edits and wow, the difference during playtesting was kind of amazing. Replacing the beginning with an easier and shorter one improved the pacing tremendously. The main area is also more fun now that dying and restarting doesn't mean having to go through another slog. The rocket launcher is available immediately, and the SSG and berserk are now accessed through sidepaths in the main area.

 

Edit: File updated, fixed one texture misalignment I missed before. Also tweaked some multiplayer stuff. Yeah, it also has proper co-op and DM support now!

Edited by Scypek2

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On 10/28/2018 at 10:12 AM, AD_79 said:

Bonnie, I was hoping to simply make a map, toss it in here and be done with it, but no.

 

Don't worry AD_79. You're welcome to create a map or two or three anytime you want for The Next Doom Odyssey as I admire your maps. PM if interested. This is a long term project.

 

I'm also possibly considering a new Pcorf community project (fun and easy going) in 2019 but will decide on that at the end of the year.

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Nice Paul, I appreciated to make a map for PCCP2, I would like to see a new community project by you like leader :)

Edited by franckFRAG

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@bonnie

For everyone who is not on Discord, can we get an update on where things stand with the project?

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On 11/5/2018 at 5:45 AM, franckFRAG said:

Nice Paul, I appreciated to make a map for PCCP2, I would like to see a new community project by you like leader :)

 

I haven't decided on it yet but will post a thread once I go ahead with my decision.

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