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Deadwing

Should I worry with Jumping and crouching if I'm developing a boom mapset?

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Posted (edited)

I mean, that is a feature unique to zdoom-based sourceports, right?

Should I disable jumping/crouching in the boom mapset config (using MAPINFO lump) in case someone plays it in zdoom, or is it already expected to not use it, due to compatibility?

 

Thanks

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PRBoom+ and Crispy Doom do technically allow for jumping, and I, personally, account for ZDoom's jumping and crouching when I make a Boom/vanilla map so that a ZDoom player can't just worm his way around the way it's supposed to be done just because he can jump and crouch, by use of impassible lines where it would be possible to get somewhere the player isn't supposed to or would allow them to skip chunks of the level. (GZD maps are different in this regard, I'll allow skips if they're clever or difficult enough)

 

Obviously, you can't account for everything, but disabling jump and crouch in (Z)MAPINFO is a solid way to get across that those functions aren't intended to be used in your mapset.

I think if you say "limit-removing/Boom" then it's generally expected that those functions aren't to be used, though, unlike if you said "ZDoom," because then if they weren't disabled, that might cause a few problems down the road because somebody broke the map by jumping when they didn't realize they weren't supposed to.

 

It's up to you, of course, but I'd suggest disabling them in (Z)MAPINFO just to be sure and make it a little clearer.

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you'd be surprised at how many people i've had test my boom maps in zdoom that automatically assume they're supposed to jump and crouch the second they see a floor they can't walk over.

i've literally had maps broken in seconds by people who start and immediately manage to jump their way to a later part of the level

 

so i would set it mapinfo to be safe.

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I was about to answer, but I see that Aquila Chrysaetos already said everything i was going to say. In summary, I make the map so that jumping and crouching are not required, but they don't break the map either. I sometimes even go so far as to put a fake door in front of a real door, which goes away when the player reaches the switch to raise the stairs to the door.

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It depends, if you don't mind people jumping or crouching on your map, then changing your map design so that people don't break it using jump and crouch would be for the best, but if that means doing drastic changes to your map, then you really should consider disabling it, some Boom wads have jump disabled for ZDoom related ports (Plutonia 2 did this if i remember correctly) so this isn't a bad fix, also like Aquila said, releasing a "limit removing/boom" map, sort of implies that you really shouldn't be jumping, so if you disable jumping i doubt people are gonna get mad about it.

In short, do keep in mind were your map might be broken if people use jump and do try to fix this, but if this starts to mean lots of changes to the initial ideas you have, then you should consider disabling it

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Just use MAPINFO to be safe, because modern Doomers play Doom with jumping and crouching and (from what I've noticed) not a small portion of them don't pay attention to the text files.

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I put a ZMAPINFO in my vanilla wads with the "nocrouch" and, if not in Hexen, "nojump" flags, as well as any other little conveniences it can offer like corrected map names.  This approach apparently does piss a few people off, but I'm okay with pissing those people off, especially since to the best of my knowledge GZDoom has always allowed those map settings to be manually overridden if someone really wants to.  Too many newer people, especially outside the forums scene, play only with (G)ZDoom and assume any feature that's in there is a valid part of the gameplay to assume they won't otherwise.

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It just doesn't seems right to worry about stuff that your wad wasn't meant to deal with, but I guess you guys are right. It's better to prevent instead of hoping that people will read the txt file, I guess.

 

About making the levels jump-proof, doesn't seems a very good idea for me. Adding impassible lines doesn't help much because it'll block flying enemies, and making windows taller/smaller will just hurt the interconnectivity.

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I don't bother with jump and crouch on GZDoom mapsets. It just feels unnatural.

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For single level releases, I've never bothered disabling them with MAPINFO, but I'd definitely do so for any large scale project. If people don't like it, tough, they can edit the wad themselves to remove the restriction. I'm certainly not going to alter my level design to account for a feature I never intended to be usable.

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3 minutes ago, Dragonsbrethren said:

For single level releases, I've never bothered disabling them with MAPINFO, but I'd definitely do so for any large scale project. If people don't like it, tough, they can edit the wad themselves to remove the restriction. I'm certainly not going to alter my level design to account for a feature I never intended to be usable.

This.

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Jump and crouch should have been added as "opt-in" features, vs. "opt-out", meaning that map developers would have to set MAPINFO flags to enable these features on a map-by-map basis, otherwise jump/crouch is disabled by default. If it had been done that way, jumping and crouching would be considered "features to add", vs. "issues to deal with". If it had been done that way, older mapsets would naturally disallow jump/crouch by default, and would work the same in all ports.

 

But that's not what happened. So, for consistency, and as a courtesy, it's good to take the time to, at a minimum, disable jumping and crouching.

 

Another idea is to allow jump and crouching, but not require them. For example, you could harden your map against using jump to bypass big sections of the map, on a case-by-case basis. At the same time, you could add some optional areas that can only be accessed by jumping, and populate them with non-essential items, like ammo. In some cases, maybe these areas can be accessed later by non-jumpers, say, via teleport or something.

 

I suppose you could obsess over it, but following this plan would make for a really nice mapset:

  • Disallow map skipping via jump
  • Make some areas that can accessed early via jump
  • Open up access to those areas later for non-jumpers

Or, just prevent jumping in your MAPINFOs.

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Just added a mapinfo. Wasn't easy as I thought, though, I had to define every level (sky, exit, hub, etc) just to get rid of jumping lol

 

Anyway, thanks for clarifying :P

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If you want to disable jumping across the board, you can add a defaultmap section like this:

defaultmap
{
 NoJump
 NoCrouch
}

Put that at the top of your MAPINFO and you could apply things like this to the entire set without having to rewrite or copy the line thirty times.

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23 hours ago, bonnie said:

i've literally had maps broken in seconds by people who start and immediately manage to jump their way to a later part of the level

 

This times 100. I too naively thought that people wouldn't jump on a limit-removing map, but they do, they really  really do. Any surface they can jump on to, people will try. I too have had entire maps broken by people merrily jumping over barriers. On streams they tend to say something like "Does this map allow jumping? Well I can jump, so I guess it does!".

 

So yes, always test the map with jumping and crouching in mind, and if it presents an issue, disable it.  If it isn't an issue, just leave it on though, it can't hurt and some (many) people like the option. 

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What about rocketjumping? In Zdoom-based ports you can perform very elaborate jumps if you have some health to spare, like a few hundred units vertically and horizontally. Should we design our maps around that?

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5 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

If you want to disable jumping across the board, you can add a defaultmap section like this:


defaultmap
{
 NoJump
 NoCrouch
}

Put that at the top of your MAPINFO and you could apply things like this to the entire set without having to rewrite or copy the line thirty times.

 

Thanks. 

 

And now if I just don't feel like playing flat-footed, is there a way to enable jumping without editing the mapinfo? 

 

For example, dimension of the boomed forbids jumping, which I found rather irritating, since quake used jumping heavily...

 

Yeah I know it can break maps, but whatever, it's just my game.

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If you want to enable jumping in ZDoom, you can go into the console and type "sv_jump 1; sv_crouch 1". This will enable both jumping and crouching, regardless of the MAPINFO text.

But there isn't a way I'm aware of to enforce enabled jumping beyond that.

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I agree with what Aquila Chrysaetos and Baaul said.

 

If you're making a vanilla/limit-removing/Boom map design and you don't want jumping/crouching to break your map, make the barriers higher or add impassible lines or use walkover triggers if a player might jump onto a ledge instead of hitting a switch that would raise a set of stairs. There are ways to account for jumping and crouching that shouldn't detract too much from the aesthetics of the level.

 

Personally, I would shy away from forcing players to not jump/crouch. Yes, you may not like it, but a number of people do, and some of them seem to get angry when you take away their freedom to jump if they want to.

 

As for Memfis's question/Devil's Advocate remark:

 

I don't see rocket jumping as being such a prevalent issue that you need to dedicate energy to defeating rocket jumping while designing your map. That being said, if I were going to try to do so, I would go about it by limiting the amount of health/soul spheres/megaspheres/invulnerability artifacts were in the vicinity of where the rocket jump would be attempted. Or, if you still want to provide them for players, have them be hidden in some way for someone attempting a rocket jump.

 

This scenario comes to mind. Suppose you have a large room. In one wall is a doorway and in another wall (or the same wall) 200 units up is an opening. In the opposite wall is the exit door locked with a key. The doorway leads to a tunnel that leads to a convoluted series of rooms, hallways, fights, etc. that culminates in the room that you saw before. In that room is a door that leads to another room with the key to the exit room. Inside the room is a handful of monsters. For the player that has fought his/her way to this higher room the way you intended, there are medkits available in a little alcove, in case the player needs them in advance of the coming fight in the key room. The alcove is opened by a walkover line somewhere long before you get to this room, so its opening is effectively invisible to the player going the way you intended. But for the rocket-jumping player, he/she gets up to find no medkits and the prospect of fighting a group of dangerous enemies with precious little health, thanks to the "shortcut" he/she took. If the player had played before, and knew about the medkits, but wanted to avoid the preceding battles, the absence of the medkits would send a subtle signal that you really didn't want him/her rocket-jumping up there. If the player has enough skill to still survive the encounter with minimal health, then more power to him/her.

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On 7/4/2018 at 7:33 PM, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

If you want to enable jumping in ZDoom, you can go into the console and type "sv_jump 1; sv_crouch 1". This will enable both jumping and crouching, regardless of the MAPINFO text.

 

  

Thanks,  that's it.

 

As for what @pegleg said: I vastly prefer to explore a map on my own,  rather than being guided through it. Not being able to jump and crouch into various places takes away from the experience imo.

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If someone gets stuck due to jumping around everywhere, that's their problem as it is not a feature of Doom. Do however keep in mind archvile blasts players in the z axis so you do have to worry about the concept if you are using those enemies.

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On 7/4/2018 at 9:53 AM, Memfis said:

What about rocketjumping? In Zdoom-based ports you can perform very elaborate jumps if you have some health to spare, like a few hundred units vertically and horizontally. Should we design our maps around that?

 

Rocket jumping is an interesting one.  I knew a few players who routinely use it (even design secrets where the only way to reach it is through rocket jumping).  However, I do think that it's a rare, and advanced, enough tactic that most players who do it recognize that they run the risk of getting somewhere they shouldn't.  

 

Players jump over barriers because they're inexperienced enough with Doom not to recognize when they're jumping over something they shouldn't.  Rocket jumpers tend to be so experienced with Doom that they do it specifically to see if they can break a map.

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I dont see a problem. It takes very little changes to make it OK to jump and crouch in a Doom map. I would just build with the "features" in mind. Its not hard to remove the map building thought that we cannot jump in Doom.

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, Bauul said:

 

This times 100. I too naively thought that people wouldn't jump on a limit-removing map, but they do, they really  really do. Any surface they can jump on to, people will try. I too have had entire maps broken by people merrily jumping over barriers. On streams they tend to say something like "Does this map allow jumping? Well I can jump, so I guess it does!".

 

So yes, always test the map with jumping and crouching in mind, and if it presents an issue, disable it.  If it isn't an issue, just leave it on though, it can't hurt and some (many) people like the option. 

This is a super pertinent thread. Your contribution is very important. It helped me identify a problem I was not aware of. I thought that ZDoom players will look at the description because they want to experience the challenge the way it was intended.

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9 hours ago, ryg said:

I thought that ZDoom players will look at the description because they want to experience the challenge the way it was intended.

Many people will. Of course, you can always cheat. NOCLIP is always available, for example. But jumping and crouching is a bit different, because they are *allowed*, without having to type in a cheat. So, there's a bit of a justification for jumping, albeit a weak one.

 

Most people do know that jumping in a map not intended for jumping is cheating. But it's not even clear which maps were made with jumping in mind. Sometimes the text file can help. But if the mapper doesn't use jumping, they may not even consider adding that line to the textfile: "Jumping is NOT intended." So, as a mapper, you've got 4 choices:

  • Build the map with jumping in mind
  • Block the jump command via MAPINFO
  • Inform players with the text file
  • Do nothing and hope for the best

The first two choices are the only choices that give the mapper any real assurance that there's a good chance that the map will be played as intended.

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