Why does it seem there is a stigma against playing anything other than Ultra-Violence?

[Fonze]

I can see where you're coming from Goatlord, and agreed rd. My take on it though is that you are trying to apply a normalcy to something which is not standardized in any form. Now, by contrast if you were to compare SC to other dobu maps your stance would hold better weight, as you would be going off the standard established by that particular mapper for their own works (though tastes can change over time, even for mappers). As far as throwing around any sort of elitism within map-building: I think I'd only buy into that if (to apply it to this example) SC was created and released shortly after like some large forum drama or something, in particular if the author participated and did so on the side of the elitists looking down from on high at the lowly peasants.

 

That all said I'm surprised that SC was the first wad that made you turn down the difficulty; hey man have no shame in it many wads make me turn it down, and I have no qualms against playing ITYTD ^^

[Tristan]

I persisted with Saturnine Chapel on UV until I beat it, and I can't often say that for Doom. I don't know why I tolerate some extreme challenges and not others, but I think it's true that I died more times than the number of monsters, so mission accomplished.

 

I mean, just look at it, I'd be disappointed if it didn't rip me several new ones.

Also let's not forget, SC was originally going to be in DMP2016 - he released it standalone because he deemed it too much for the normal player.

[Marcaek]

here's what im gonna be putting in all my wads from now on

 

marc_skills.zip

 

Hopefully the message is clear.

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, Marcaek said:

here's what im gonna be putting in all my wads from now on

 

marc_skills.zip

 

Hopefully the message is clear.

So people can see:

[Killer5]

Tbh I am a fan of:

itytd - easy

hntr - normal

hmp - hard

uv - enter your preferred nightmare replacement (basically you will die and not have fun if you play this difficulty blind)

nm - blank

 

I get a lot of replay value from my maps doing this.

 

This list will change if nm is actually possible.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I'm partial to the UV graphic that read Zzul-Violence. That was a good one.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

Tbh I am a fan of:

itytd - easy

hntr - normal

hmp - hard

uv - enter your preferred nightmare replacement

nm - blank

I like these better:

 

1. Mom is desperately trying to understand my fascination with this game

2. Newbie and proud about having a real life

3. I prefer decaf coffee

4. Pain slut with a safeword

5. Pain slut without a safeword

[Mr.Rocket]

Or you could have:

 

1. Map author prefers that you only play on this skill

2. Map author prefers that you only play on this skill

3. Map author prefers that you only play on this skill

4. Map author prefers that you only play on this skill 

5. Map author prefers that you only play on this skill

 

:P

[Xaser]

Quote

1. Who the Fuck stole my Topics?
2. Who the Fuck takes no Shit?
3. Who the Fuck are your Sons of the Bitches?
4. Who the Fuck kicked my Ass?
5. What the Fuck you Guys are Doing?

 

[Koko Ricky]

Well I can't blame the author if he's transparent about the challenge!

[MTrop]

Ultra-what, now?

[Cruduxy Pegg]

The hell did you say about tea?!

[Pegleg]

@GoatLord

As rdwpa said, Saturnine Chapel is a spiteful piece of work on UV. @dobu gabu maru meant it to be so when he created it (and even says, if you play this on UV, "you're not going to have fun"). The author actually recommends you not play his level on UV. He is not saying that you are somehow "not good enough" if you can't finish the map at that level or even that only the pinnacle of Doom players should even attempt it. He is merely saying that anyone can play it on UV, but it would be foolish to think you're going to have a good time, because he designed the map to not be a fun romp on UV.

 

From the author himself: "I intentionally sought to murder the player over and over" because the entire plot of the map is that it is not a typical map, instead "you're penetrating into a dead man's emotionally damaged unconscious, and the remaining scraps of his fraught mind will fight tooth and nail to keep this hallowed dreamscape alive."

 

So, yeah, Saturnine Chapel on UV, by design, keeps you one move from checkmate. The author makes no pretense about this, nor does the author state that the entire Doom community should be playing at this level.

[Koko Ricky]

Yeah, I realized that far too late, it seems! So I'm okay with that when the author is up front about it.

[Pegleg]

On 7/29/2018 at 2:25 PM, Agent6 said:

 

Hm, while it's certainly true nothing will ever be accessible or for virtually everyone, I do believe it kinda is best to keep accessibility in mind when making something, unless of course your policy is "take it for what it is or leave".

 

On 7/29/2018 at 2:33 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

I've said this many times by now: Only way you can get people to realize that UV isn't the be-all-end-all-difficulty of your maps is to make stuff like HMP relevant even to players who have some decent experience. Then you can make a case and say "My HMP isn't just a watered down afterthought of what I thought was actually good and challenging gameplay" and maybe somebody might listen to you and consider playing on HMP the first time around.

 

Being a below average player myself, I can appreciate the need to make maps accessible in some way for everyone. However the mapper goes about this is his/her own business. If he/she wants to make lower difficulty levels overpowered romps, that is his/her prerogative, but, as NIH said, it will likely be more well-received if the mapper actually puts some thought into how to make a map approachable for lower skill levels.

 

And if the mapper decides that he/she is not going to cater to anyone who plays on difficulty levels below UV, that is his/her business, too.

 

Personally, I like to play maps on ITYTD. I freely admit this and am not ashamed by it. If I'm doing something like the Ironman Challenge, I will abide by the rules and play on UV (with the sort of results that one would expect). If I'm playing a mapset that expressly states that lower difficulty levels are not meant to be balanced (like Slaughtermax--yes, I tried playing Slaughtermax), I'll play on one of the higher difficulty levels. When I first started mapping (many years ago), I considered a map to be in good shape if I could finish it on UV. Now, I realize that this would make my map too easy for many players (and probably then, too, but I didn't really think about it). Which is why when I make maps, I generally make the UV difficulty harder than I can get through (and I try to during testing). Of course, I sometimes end up with a map that I think is hard, but that people still play (I've seen this happen on streams) and come back with comments like, "This was considered hard?"

 

Is that a bad thing? I don't necessarily think so. There's a lot of room in the Doom community for people of all skill levels, and there's usually something to cater to all of us.

 

 

On 7/29/2018 at 1:28 PM, rehelekretep said:

oh god you were doing so well until you mentioned that last word there D:

prepare for NiH arrival in 3..2..1

lol as i was typing this she posted :D

 

And yet, she never said anything about the slaughter comment.

 

And personally, I didn't see anything negative about Sparktimus's comment. It was merely a quick commentary on how some people complain about the existence of the slaughter genre. Slaughter maps are not meant to be accessible for every single player, regardless of skill level.

 

And really, unless you're trying to play through every map ever made, if you don't enjoy the slaughter genre, you don't have to play those maps.

[rehelekretep]

i was only joking ;)

i like NiH i was just referencing her tireless defence of the 'genre'

[BigDickBzzrak]

19 hours ago, MTrop said:

Ultra-what, now?

 

*selects skill 5*

 

*black teenager exclaims THIS PERSON EATING BEANS!*

 

*everybody laughs*

[amackert]

Thanks for mentioning Saturnine Chapel. I went ahead and checked it out and I see what you guys mean. I think knowing a wad is going to tear you a new one eases the pain a bit, as a lot of that suffering comes from the surprise of it being difficult when you go in expecting the opposite. That said, wads like this in particular are not going to be for a lot of players, and that's OK.

 

It is important for players to research their wads before jumping in head first, particularly inexperienced or less capable players. If you can't be bothered to check the readme, at least look at the forum thread that's associated with it. Personally speaking, going through the readme is becoming standard procedure for me. It helps me know what the author's intent was, how many maps are in it, and gives me an idea on who worked on it as well as who did the music. I'm still going to play my own way on a first playthrough, then adjust from there (unless the creator specifically states to use jumping, crouching or mouselook).

[Doomkid]

Well it's not nearly as cute as MTrop's difficulty settings in Coffee Break, but I'd like to see more people stealing the difficulty convention I made for Doomed in Space:

 

 

I feel like it more accurately depicts what to expect in contemporary PWADs, especially to those new to the classic Doom scene. UV is very rarely suitable for newcomers from what I've observed.

 

Anyway anyone who takes this stuff far too seriously needs to chow down on a chill pill, can't believe how heated some seem to get over something that's ultimately trivial, imo anyway.

[seed]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:52 PM, Doomkid said:

I feel like it more accurately depicts what to expect in contemporary PWADs, especially to those new to the classic Doom scene. UV is very rarely suitable for newcomers from what I've observed.

 

Not much experience behind but based on what I've played to far, it's quite accurate.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Agent6

[dew]

On 7/30/2018 at 4:52 PM, GoatLord said:

My issue is that I have gotten very used to a particular difficulty, so I expect to be able to use it on most any mod. 

On behalf of the entire doom community I would like to deeply apologize for this unforgivable lapse in the Goatlord Standard. Mods not being according to someone's exact expectations are the worst.

[Crusader No Regret]

    As a side note, in competitive speedrunning, UV (or NM for the daring) is a standard.  It's almost an entirely different game in this arena.  The demos are made to be shown off.  Getting records involves familiarity with the map and sometimes the record holders know the map inside and out.  Skill is part of the required package but so is a great deal of route planning, persistence, and luck.  Especially since the public usually doesn't see the failed attempts which can number in the hundreds or beyond, this can skew how things appear to an outsider.  Even if it's not about going for records, competitive arenas like DW Ironman or Doom Honorific Titles (who remembers those, heh) are done at UV and NM.  As an aside, DSDA does accept demos at other skill levels as uncommon as it is for someone to submit one.

 

     With most of the viewing content available being in UV, be it demos or videos (in this modern age), it's quite easy for someone to jump to the conclusion that UV is "standard."  Such a perception is in no way indicative of how people will Doom when there isn't an audience watching.  Speaking for myself, every demo I've submitted to DSDA has been on UV.  Yet I almost never play on UV when I'm not recording.  I find UV is most cases mostly more monster HP to grind through but that's a separate conversation.

[Juza]

I always play on UV, even if it‘s the hardest wad ever, I'm too proud to play on a lower difficulty. I see the point of playing as "Kill as many demons as possible" and why would I be asking for less demons when I just wanna kill a bunch of them? And I mean, everything‘s possible so I‘ll certainly overcome the challenge if I try enough. When I get tired of dying I play other wads. I'd rather train, improve my skills, so one day I will try again and beat that enemy while I'm confident of myself. I know I take it too seriously. If you think about it, that's life.

[Pegleg]

8 hours ago, AsianMammoth said:

I always play on UV, even if it‘s the hardest wad ever, I'm too proud to play on a lower difficulty. I see the point of playing as "Kill as many demons as possible" and why would I be asking for less demons when I just wanna kill a bunch of them? And I mean, everything‘s possible so I‘ll certainly overcome the challenge if I try enough. When I get tired of dying I play other wads. I'd rather train, improve my skills, so one day I will try again and beat that enemy while I'm confident of myself. I know I take it too seriously. If you think about it, that's life.

You're entitled to your opinion. I appreciate that, regardless of taking it to seriously, this particular approach is what makes Doom fun for you. And that's fine.

 

But the question is, do you look down on people who play on lower difficulty levels or who decrease the difficulty if they keep dying? Do you essentially demand that others play like you? That your approach is the RIGHT way to play Doom and everyone else who doesn't adhere to your philosophy is somehow a lesser individual who should go do something else and stop sullying your Doom experience?

 

If so, then you're part of the group propagating the "stigma" against non-UV play.

 

If not, then you're just an individual who takes Doom seriously (perhaps too seriously, by your own admission) and prefers to play the way you like to play that gives you the most fun.

[Pure Hellspawn]

17 hours ago, AsianMammoth said:

I always play on UV, even if it‘s the hardest wad ever, I'm too proud to play on a lower difficulty. I see the point of playing as "Kill as many demons as possible" and why would I be asking for less demons when I just wanna kill a bunch of them? And I mean, everything‘s possible so I‘ll certainly overcome the challenge if I try enough. When I get tired of dying I play other wads. I'd rather train, improve my skills, so one day I will try again and beat that enemy while I'm confident of myself. I know I take it too seriously. If you think about it, that's life.

 

UV isn't the hardest difficulty. There's UV -Respawn, UV -Fast, and of course, Nightmare. And for those who need harder - there's plenty of gameplay mods to REALLY enhance the experience.

 

[Phoby]

I don't really care if someone plays on ITYTD or HMP because it makes all the UV and NM players look like experts.

 

I personally never feel like I'm getting the full experience of a map when I play on anything but UV since there are less monsters and I'm so accustomed to playing on UV that when I get more ammo or health from pickups, I feel like a soyboy casual. The only time I might play on anything lower is if I'm playing a really hard WAD for the first time, but then it's right back to UV.

 

Nightmare is more of a challenge mode in my eyes since it's just such a massive leap in difficulty from UV.

[roadworx]

because gatekeeping is big in retro gaming communities, sadly

[CasualScrub]

I'm really happy that this thread has inspired some good discussion here

[MegaZzZeux]

I have always enjoyed UV when it comes to Doom... but on almost every other game I go for Easy mode (or Normal depending)

[Juza]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:46 AM, Pegleg said:

You're entitled to your opinion. I appreciate that, regardless of taking it to seriously, this particular approach is what makes Doom fun for you. And that's fine.

 

But the question is, do you look down on people who play on lower difficulty levels or who decrease the difficulty if they keep dying? Do you essentially demand that others play like you? That your approach is the RIGHT way to play Doom and everyone else who doesn't adhere to your philosophy is somehow a lesser individual who should go do something else and stop sullying your Doom experience?

 

If so, then you're part of the group propagating the "stigma" against non-UV play.

 

If not, then you're just an individual who takes Doom seriously (perhaps too seriously, by your own admission) and prefers to play the way you like to play that gives you the most fun.

I do think they're bad at the game for giving up so easily but not like I'd say anything to try to stop them from playing how they want. Not that I really care.