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CasualScrub

Why does it seem there is a stigma against playing anything other than Ultra-Violence?

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Too many PWADS and not enough time. In the 90s people played the likes of MM and HR repeatedly learning every facet of the game because there was not as much high quality content.

 

To me, UV should be the seemingly unfair difficulty level that you conquer by first learning the secrets and strategic advantages in a level. Now it's expected that UV difficulty plays fair from the first time you play because it's unreasonable to expect someone to invest so much time in one PWAD.

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Oh geeeez!  This type of stigma exists in ALL gaming communities.  Most noticeably is the Dark Souls community.  I have never been part of a more toxic gaming community in my life!  No matter how you play the game, you're playing it wrong according to the community.  Getting back to the Doom games, I personally couldn't care less what difficulty you play on.  Let's face it, the classic Doom games are NOT meant to be fair games and do not hold your hand like all modern games do.  For some n00bs to the series and even some veterans, that can be a little intimidating.  Some gamers like challenge and some like instant gratification.  Regardless of what typoe of gamer you are, if you're having fun and being entertained, then you're playing the game 100% right in my eyes. 

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I always play on Hurt Me Plenty, i dunno why. Probably because my dad does that too and i grew up watching him play Doom, or maybe it's because i always thought of it as the "intended" difficulty.

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Stigma? what's that? just another thing in my way to enjoy Doom according to my tastes. I do play UV but that doesn't mean that I don't need to lower the difficulty of the map since it can be used for practice and/or testing your own map. And the initial comments resumes the issue pretty well.

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People usually think that they will get an inferior experience while playing on a lower difficult, but tbh some maps even behave and flow better if you try on HMP or HNTR. Still, if the creator doesn't specify that UV is a lot hard, people will not know how hard or easy the wad will be, so they'll mostly select UV because it's the difficult the mapper usually is more worried about.

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I think the stigma is more on people who prefer to play ANY game on lower difficulties. I've noticed that anyone who sets the game to Easy (and sometimes even Medium) get a lot of BS from "Hardcore" gamers, just because they want to play a game for the fun of it, rather than for the insane brutality. It's why games like Dark Souls repel me rather than attract me is because if I make ONE mistake, I literally go from 100% HP down to 0 faster than a bolt of lightning.

 

This is why I just stick to a lot of Sandbox games. More enjoyment.

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Doom was well balanced for the time it was released. UV was challenging enough for more serious play and all the other difficulties except nightmare did the rest. UV changed where ammo, monsters and power ups spawned which did impact the experience. The icon of sin is very different when you have 4 invulnerability spheres than zero. 

 

Over time player's rapidly got past the skill level needed to play UV on the Iwads available. Plutonia and episode 4 are examples of it. Playing them is much harder than episode 3 of doom 1 or doom 2, TNT is just.. well TNT. Even those got beat and out-skilled by the fanbase over time. Pwads are a curious case. They are similar to the Iwads in that they are based around a specific skill level, Generally that of the mapper(s) since they don't have time to balance everything nor have to play on difficulties they find too easy -Testers help with this.

 

Now doom is +2 decades old and many players have a VERY long experience in playing doom and generally skill representing that. Many can do Nightmare even without saves. Others are content with pistol starting or iron man\no save runs. If a map is balanced around people who've been playing for a long time and challenge them it'll be extremely unforigiving to everyone else. Even unfair if it is extremely difficult to said players. Someone used to playing lower difficulties on the Iwads only might get decimated in seconds or stuck really early on. Similar to how many people can't beat E4M1 or E4M2. 

 

Now as for stigma it is just like in every gaming community ever. You'll see many idiots who just bluff stuff they've never done trying to belittle other people over anything and people who will think everyone else is around their skill level. The former are trying to insult people while the later might not at the start but sometimes get provoked and start fighting back. 

 

Should you play on UV? NO, play on any difficulty you want, even on nightmare. Just don't expect most Pwads to have weird difficulties or only 1 implemented, they aren't mapsets by a gaming company trying to cover the biggest audience, they are by mappers making a map they want to play, design or give to the community.

 

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I will predominantly play on UV, although if it's a notoriously difficult PWAD that I'm playing blindly, I'll bump it down to HMP. I've noticed that almost all veteran Doomers tend to play on UV... for different reasons that have been illustrated in this thread. However, I've never interpreted this as a real stigma against playing at lower difficulties - UV just seems to be the modern convention.

 

What I do think is stigmatized is the use of quicksaving/loading. And while I understand why it's generally frowned-upon, I admit that I do it quite a bit in more difficult PWADs. In a perfect world, I could and would devote all the time I wanted to sharpening my skills enough to not rely on quicksaves; but in the real world, especially as I get older, I find I don't have the time in my day to die at the end of a long map, only to go back to the start. Whether I'm playing an unfamiliar PWAD or one I've played countless times, I aim to go through as many maps as I can with the time I have. And I choose to quicksave instead of bump down the difficulty to preserve the more challenging encounters; to experience the map more closely to how it was intended by the author. It may not make sense to others, but it doesn't steal any enjoyment out of the game from me. :)

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Do you remember the trope of games mocking you for playing on easier difficulty?

Well, this is an artificial iteration, conveyed in community feedback.

[EDIT] @Linguica TBH I don't feel Doom's "I'm Too Young to Die" nearly as insulting as Wolfenstein's "Can I play, Daddy?". Good point, tho', but I keep remembering seeing a recent compilation where Blazkowicz's pacifier was a rather underwhelming insult compared to what other games offered for players taking the breather route - Wolf or Doom at least didn't deny them a good ending (*cough* Daisy *cough*) or the second half of the game if they played on a setting where monster placement were at a low demand.

Edited by Cell : Answered, didn't want to make a new post.

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If I had to play saveless I would have to play most wads on HNTR or even ITYTD.  Haha

 

For me, the punishment of restarting a 20 min level when you were in the last section is way too harsh. What I do, however, is to avoid quick-saving during a setpiece or always trying to get the "best result" when trying to solve a difficult setpiece. If I survive with 1% health and no ammo, I'll keep with that result

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13 minutes ago, Deadwing said:

If I had to play saveless I would have to play most wads on HNTR or even ITYTD.  Haha

 

For me, the punishment of restarting a 20 min level when you were in the last section is way too harsh. What I do, however, is to avoid quick-saving during a setpiece or always trying to get the "best result" when trying to solve a difficult setpiece. If I survive with 1% health and no ammo, I'll keep with that result

Same. haha. I'll never save mid-battle, and will try not to save more than 5 times per map in a large map. 

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Thread title looks like a paraphrase from The Onion: "If There Isn't a Stigma Against Playing Anything Other Than Ultra-Violence, Then Can Someone Please Explain To Me Why I Keep Insisting There Is?"

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Honestly, I've only encountered 5 people that think that. However, I have encountered a lot of people in the Gears of War community who think playing on Hardcore or Insane is the only way to play.

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It happens everywhere, and the high difficulty people are often the most vocal. Heck, Darkest Dungeon became ludicrous because of all thee hardcore players.

 

Personally alot of recent pwads are not my cuppa tea because I like to play HNTR and shoot through and appreciate the wad without stopping every ten seconds for another hard fight.

 

But each wad has its appropriate audience, so I say let them carry on. Whatever floats your boat.

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2 hours ago, Cell said:

Do you remember the trope of games mocking you for playing on easier difficulty?

 

You mean like in... the difficulty selector of Wolfenstein 3D, and arguably Doom?

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https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EasyModeMockery

Quote

Wolfenstein 3D and its sequel showed the protagonist B.J. Blazkowicz's face next to the difficulty selector, with increasingly fierce expressions as the difficulties got harder. The easiest mode, "Can I play, Daddy?", shows him wearing a baby's bonnet and sucking a pacifier. The second easiest mode isn't much kinder: "Please don't hurt me." It shows him looking scared.

 

Wolfenstein: The New Order brings this back in glorious HD.

 

This mocking naming of difficulty levels continues through the Doom series ("I'm Too Young To Die" and "Hey, Not Too Rough") and Heretic ("Thou Needest a Wet Nurse" and "Yellowbellies-R-Us").

 

The PS1 version of Doom just states it outright: "I'm Too Young to Die" is now named "I am a Wimp". On the other hand, in all versions of the game, the doubled ammo per-pickup you get on the easiest difficulty also applies while playing on Nightmare! difficulty.

 

The only way to enable full episode selection in SNES Doom is to play on a high difficulty. If you pick "I'm too young to die", you will get brutally murdered and chucked back to the title screen with no explanation at all after beating the boss of "Phobos Anomaly", and won't get to continue on to the later episodes until you run through it again on higher difficulties.

 

The trend goes onward with Brutal Doom and Project Brutality with the second easiest mode, "Can I Play Daddy?". Inverted with the easiest mode "Power Fantasy", because you'd only play that difficulty for, well... a power fantasy. Only babies play the next hardest difficulty because they're not tough enough to go any harder.

 

The mod Trump Doom takes this trope Up to Eleven. The easiest difficulty is called SJW mode and removes all threats from the game; enemies no longer shoot at you and your entire arsenal is replaced with a useless water pistol. Certain posters are replaced with overexaggerated feminist posters and the game now includes safe spaces, which have a picture of Phil Fish. Also, the ending few levels are replaced with simple corridors with nothing in them and the final encounter changes from a climactic boss fight into a calm discussion, which results in the Bad Ending.

 

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1 hour ago, Linguica said:

 

You mean like in... the difficulty selector of Wolfenstein 3D, and arguably Doom?

 

Also like in IWBTG where you had to play the game wearing a ribbon on your head if you picked the easiest difficulty.

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19 hours ago, Odal said:

What I do think is stigmatized is the use of quicksaving/loading. And while I understand why it's generally frowned-upon, I admit that I do it quite a bit in more difficult PWADs. In a perfect world, I could and would devote all the time I wanted to sharpening my skills enough to not rely on quicksaves; but in the real world, especially as I get older, I find I don't have the time in my day to die at the end of a long map, only to go back to the start.

 

Now about this part, I think it also depends a great deal on whether you're cut for games like Doom.

 

For instance, through my own experience with more competitive oriented or simply skill based games I've learned that I'm simply not made for them. There used to be games I've played for years and some even for decades but I was permanently stuck on a "casual" (or mediocre, as a matter of fact) level no matter how hard I tried. In the case of Doom, I doubt I'll ever reach a skill level where I won't have to rely on saves anymore, perhaps not on save scumming when shit hits the fan, but to get rid of saving altogether? Nop, I'm not seeing that happening. Or maybe it will? I've been wrong before, many times in fact. The most recent example would be me constantly saying that I won't touch slaughterwads a few months ago, and now I'm doing just that lulz.

 

But still not seeing myself ever becoming a good Doom player. Some people told me I'm not bad at Doom (thanks @loveless :) ), but everytime I watch someone else playing I can't help but see the exact opposite, especially when they can handle crucial aspects of the gameplay that I simply don't, such as two shooting Cybies with the BFG. I suppose I could take some pride in being at least decent at shotgunning Cybies though...

 

The point is, I could play Doom exclusively, 24/7, and never manage to get any better, and I have no shame in admitting this. Does that mean I'll bitch about the difficulty overwhelming me? Hell no.

Edited by Agent6

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9 hours ago, Odal said:

I will predominantly play on UV, although if it's a notoriously difficult PWAD that I'm playing blindly, I'll bump it down to HMP. I've noticed that almost all veteran Doomers tend to play on UV... for different reasons that have been illustrated in this thread. However, I've never interpreted this as a real stigma against playing at lower difficulties - UV just seems to be the modern convention.

 

What I do think is stigmatized is the use of quicksaving/loading. And while I understand why it's generally frowned-upon, I admit that I do it quite a bit in more difficult PWADs. In a perfect world, I could and would devote all the time I wanted to sharpening my skills enough to not rely on quicksaves; but in the real world, especially as I get older, I find I don't have the time in my day to die at the end of a long map, only to go back to the start. Whether I'm playing an unfamiliar PWAD or one I've played countless times, I aim to go through as many maps as I can with the time I have. And I choose to quicksave instead of bump down the difficulty to preserve the more challenging encounters; to experience the map more closely to how it was intended by the author. It may not make sense to others, but it doesn't steal any enjoyment out of the game from me. :)

 

At least in the circles I frequent, saves aren't stigmatized at all. Especially not when used in the checkpoint style: dropped in quiet moments before or after fights to mark progress. 

 

What I've seen criticized is saving carelessly to the detriment of the experience, particularly when the (very artificial) pickle that follows the 'bad' save colors thoughts on the map itself. A common example would be saving on extremely low health, without a backup, and then needing many unnecessarily tough tries to get through the next segment. Another would be using saves to sledgehammer through notably harsh maps, dying in hard fights repeatedly without thinking anything out or trying new approaches, waiting for RNGesus to smile -- sometimes people do this and their commentary on stream or in a video makes it clear they aren't having fun at all.

 

Apart from specific abuses of that sort, using saves is totally cool, and all good players I've watched, except for exactly one, use saves in regular play sometimes. (And it's also an indispensable tool for practice.) 

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13 hours ago, rehelekretep said:

when i play doom i want to be pulled inside out and put on a spike

 

In other words, that is what "fun" means for you when you play Doom. :-P

 

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A Youtube frequenter's perspective:

1. Difficulty

I have learned that it is, in fact, okay (in my case, encouraged) to play on a lower difficulty setting if necessary. Otherwise, you're dying constantly, you'll end up raging, etc. then say things about the map that aren't true. However, if it's a well-balanced map, it'll feel, well, balanced (not empty) on any difficulty you choose to play. 

On another note, many non-commentary map gameplays are usually in the format of UV Max, which I guess sort of has created a school of thought, of sorts, of, "well, if that's how it's recorded, that's how it should be played all the time." Just my guess and experience with it.
2. Saves

I tend not to use these unless it's a long map or multiple maps, and generally only when recording, more because GZDoom tends to crash if I die, and I'm not a fan of starting all the way over. The only other exception is playing megawads, I tend to chip at these a little bit at a time and will save when I get to a stopping point. 

I know several streamers who will absolutely refuse to save their game, they also play slaughter WADs mostly so I'm assuming it's something to do with the genre. I guess it just depends on what kind of challenge you want out of your game. 

All in all, there's really no right or wrong way to play Doom when it comes to difficulty or saves. Do what you feel is best for you and remember, it's a game! It's supposed to be fun. 

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13 hours ago, Maser said:

Oh geeeez!  This type of stigma exists in ALL gaming communities.  Most noticeably is the Dark Souls community.  I have never been part of a more toxic gaming community in my life!  No matter how you play the game, you're playing it wrong according to the community.


Letting other people dictate how you should be playing is a losing battle no matter what. Everyone is going to play differently because everyone is different. Even people who play similarly aren't always going to be exact carbon copies of each other's playstyle. You shouldn't be playing to appease someone else. Play for yourself. Do what you feel is comfortable. And if a specific strat doesn't work, don't be afraid to try something else or feel ashamed to gasp lower the difficulty. The stigma of UV hasn't really existed for a while, and the only people who look down their noses at people who need to lower the difficulty are the same people who think that any other playstyle except their own is wrong. Don't let others put you down for something so arbitrary and meaningless. Play how you want to play. Like everyone else has said, as long as you are enjoying yourself, then that's all that really matters.

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Never heard any of that "UV is the true doom experience" nonesense, the only true way to play Doom is by enjoying it.

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I find that UV, for doom i and ii at least, offers the best challenge where the game is really difficult, but not to the point where it's unfair (most of the time). I didn't really think there was a stigma against playing anything other than UV though. I usually play on hurt me plenty just cause I find it a lot more fun.

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2 hours ago, Solmyr said:

Never heard any of that "UV is the true doom experience" nonesense, the only true way to play Doom is by enjoying it.

Scroll back through this very thread and you will come across something in that vein at least once or twice.

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What's this all about? I've play wads on HMP and if I like them, later replaying them on UV. Even with mods. And got new experience.

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