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Memfis

Worst editor?

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What is the absolute worst level editor out there? I want to try some really constrained mapping.

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Posted (edited)

Use vim in hex editor "mode" (:%!xxd to set, :%!xxd -r to unset) and write the raw level data directly.

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DoomEd seems like an obvious choice.

 

If you want to experience multiple levels of hell try getting Hellmaker running inside Sheepshaver. It's like a nightmare inside a nightmare

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I'd like to second the hex editor. Origwad is long overdue for a sequel.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, DynamiteKaitorn said:

DooM Builder 1

 

DB1 was incredibly revolutionary at the time of it's release and was hundreds of times more usable (and stable, in my experience) than literally everything that came before it.

 

Trying to map in XWE was hot garbage though, heh. https://www.doomworld.com/xwe/mapeditor.shtml

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I don't think I've encountered a bad editor yet.

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The first editor I ever used extensively was DEU back in the mid 90s.  The latest version is still on idgames.

 

You might need to DOSBOX it to get it to run, but I would love to hear how you get on with it.  It's not bad exactly, it's just so easy to underappreciate just how many quality-of-life improvements DB brought (let along GZDB_BF).  There are just so many more steps you need to go through with DEU to make even simple things like sectors.

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WadEd.

Now, I don't consider it the worst by a long shot in terms of the actual drawing method; it seems pretty much the model from which Doom Builder was based (more so than DeePSea I'd argue). But constrained? YOU GOT IT. No higher memory access in DOS (probably something to do with being coded in QBASIC of all things) meant there's some pretty hefty size limits going on there.

And if you start, two things; look out for zero-size lines cropping up on right-angle corners sometimes and never save in 'drawing' mode. ;)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DynamiteKaitorn said:

DooM Builder 1... Good luck with glitches and crashes :D

1000% dissagreed with this

DB1 was a game changer back in the day, not to mention back in the day it ran quite stable so glitches and crashes weren't much of an issue. It is outdated of course, but that's to be expected since the editor had run it's course. You're not supposed to use Doom Builder 1 anymore, that's why it moved on to Doom Builder 2

I hadn't got much experience with multiple editors, ever since i discovered doom builder i've only used doom builder derivates, so i'll cast my vote for the one i was using before, DeepSea, im sure it wasn't a bad editor, but it wasn't as intuitive to use, not to mention it was shareware, so if you didn't had the money or means to pay.... well you were pretty much screwed due to the linedef limit lol

Edited by DMPhobos

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It's really a tossup for me between an archaic limited editor like WADED as Jayextee's described, or something like XWE's editor. XWE's editor is easily the worst I have used, and its particularly great since it was made in an era where editors were getting pretty good, as I think DB was out by then. I don't think I've ever managed to make anything sane in it.

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When I first tried mapping for Doom around 1997-2000, I never got any maps done because of the limitations of the editors.  I had a long stint trying to make WadEd work but it was extremely unstable if I remember rightly, crashing at frequent intervals, and so I never got any maps completed with it, and so I'd give WadEd the wooden spoon award (at least out of the editors I've tried). 

 

I tried WadAuthor which was more stable but harder to get to grips with, and DeepSea, which was probably better than either of those but was shareware.

 

I think Doom Builder 1 was probably the first reliable freeware Doom level editor.  Of course it has since been superseded by Doom Builder 2 and GZDoom Builder but it was reasonably stable and fully featured and it was the first editor that I managed to finish maps in.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, DB1 is miles ahead of anything that came before it. WadAuthor and DeepSea are really dated now, but still quite usable honestly.

 

If you want something that isn't a torturous experience to get running, try WinDEU. The struggle is actually in using the editor itself as opposed to attempting the black magic and sorcery required to get those old DOS editors up and running.. What an absolute headache.

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I remember deu being ok, but aligning textures wasn't a thing without 3d mode.  I used to memorise the sizes of the textures and map around them

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I feel like Doomkids video on using old Doom editors is appropiate.

I'm not an expert on DOSbox but I remember seeing a comment on the video that mentions running DOS virtual machine would yield better results.

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EdMap was widely derided back in the day, but that may have been because it was shareware so it had limited capabilities unless you paid up some cash.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bauul said:

The first editor I ever used extensively was DEU back in the mid 90s.  The latest version is still on idgames.

 

You might need to DOSBOX it to get it to run, but I would love to hear how you get on with it.  It's not bad exactly, it's just so easy to underappreciate just how many quality-of-life improvements DB brought (let along GZDB_BF).  There are just so many more steps you need to go through with DEU to make even simple things like sectors.

I feel like you and @Doomkid should talk. Maybe this will inspire him to make his sequel to the video that @Classicgamer6 posted--the one where he actually gets the old editors working.

 

@Memfis

Back in the mid-90's, I used DEU and DCK. I didn't really have an issue with either of them. I never really liked the fact that DCK went from being freeware to crippled shareware, so maybe the last shareware DCK (3.62, I think), if you can find it, and use it in its crippled state.

 

I downloaded DeepSea, but I never really tried it, so I can't speak about it.

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I don't have much experience with editors but i'd say that XWE must be at least in the top 10 of worst Doom editors.

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Did XWE's map editor even work?  I have vague recollections of trying to use it and ending up assuming that whatever map editing functionality it was supposed to eventually have wasn't actually implemented and that it was only meant to be used as a viewer.

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1 hour ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

Did XWE's map editor even work?  I have vague recollections of trying to use it and ending up assuming that whatever map editing functionality it was supposed to eventually have wasn't actually implemented and that it was only meant to be used as a viewer.

I knew you could edit objects and a few other things, but yeah, I always assumed it was there primarily as a viewer as well. XWE is honestly fantastic for importing, exporting and organizing lumps. Slade pretty much beats it in every way now, but for years I used it to compile and it was fine for what it was.

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17 hours ago, Gez said:

Use vim in hex editor "mode" (:%!xxd to set, :%!xxd -r to unset) and write the raw level data directly.

 

Vim? Real men use vi, colors are for sissies.

 

Seriously though, being constrained to a mac most of the time has pushed me to try Eureka and I would much, much rather use EdMap or dmapedit.

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Have you tried SLADE 3? Its map editor is certainly perfectible, and to this end would benefit from feedback.

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The shareware version of DeeP, although it was probably good for the late 90s, combines both the archaic nature of ancient level editors with a limit of (I think) 800 linedefs and 1200 sidedefs. If you want to do some really constrained mapping, this is by far the "best" choice.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

 

DB1 was incredibly revolutionary at the time of it's release and was hundreds of times more usable (and stable, in my experience) than literally everything that came before it.

This. My first Doom editor was DeepSea and Doom Builder 1 was just night and day. I didn't take Doom mapping seriously until DB1 (and Dr. Sleep's excellent guide for it) was released. I have nothing but respect for anyone who cranked out good looking maps without a visual preview, especially back in the day when node building wasn't instantaneous.

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4 hours ago, Spie812 said:

The shareware version of DeeP, although it was probably good for the late 90s, combines both the archaic nature of ancient level editors with a limit of (I think) 800 linedefs and 1200 sidedefs. If you want to do some really constrained mapping, this is by far the "best" choice.

 

800 linedefs?  Luxury!

 

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On 7/27/2018 at 3:21 PM, dt_ said:

I remember deu being ok

 

Do you mean WinDEU, or original DEU?  My memory of using the original was just the sheer number of steps you needed to create even simple things.  For example, a square room would require (IIRC):

  1. Insert four vertices in a square
  2. Connect 2 vertices, and hit "make line".  Do this for all four pairs of verticies
  3. Select all 4 lines and hit "make sector".
  4. Ensure each line is facing the right direction
  5. Select each line in turn and give each a texture
  6. Select the sector and give it a floor and a ceiling

And only then would the level load (once your player start was in of course).  It's not a wrong method exactly, as this is how the engine understands levels at a basic sense, but god damn compared to DB it took a long time!

 

I learned almost everything back then from a single book, the Doom Construction Kit (not to be confused with the map editor of the same name, despite what the Doomwiki would have you believe).  It came with a CD that had on it DEU, Dehacked, and a bunch of other editors like DMUS.  I can pretty much trace my entire passion for editing the game back to that book. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

What the hell is up with all those editors (especially DCK) which refused to work under Windows 95 and Windows 98 (they required me to restart in DOS mode, where I had no mouse), when Doom itself (or Wolf3D, for that matter) had no problem running this way?!

 

Also, way too many Doom editors (with notable exceptions WadAuthor and the Doom Builders) lack any user experience common sense. In DEU and DETH, when you save, it always works as a "Save As" which only exports the current map. You're also asked every time you want to save. And when you quit, instead of the common "Save changes? [yes/no/cancel]" question, you get something like "Discard changes?" or "Sure you want to quit?". DeeP and DeePSea seemed to be based on them, at least conceptually, inheriting the flaws, with a few improvements, but the same clunky file interface. Why do Doom editors (even Eureka, which requires you to constantly build nodes after saving, manually) fail at basic New/Open/Save/Close document functionality? Wads should be like documents.

Edited by printz

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, printz said:

Also, way too many Doom editors (with notable exceptions WadAuthor and the Doom Builders) lack any user experience common sense. In DEU and DETH, when you save, it always works as a "Save As" which only exports the current map. You're also asked every time you want to save. And when you quit, instead of the common "Save changes? [yes/no/cancel]" question, you get something like "Discard changes?" or "Sure you want to quit?". DeeP and DeePSea seemed to be based on them, at least conceptually, inheriting the flaws, with a few improvements, but the same clunky file interface. Why do Doom editors (even Eureka, which requires you to constantly build nodes after saving, manually) fail at basic New/Open/Save/Close document functionality? Wads should be like documents.

 

I remember hearing that a lot of the early editors were made by people who were very good programmers, but lacked the basic concepts of mapmaking, so they made things much more difficult than they needed to be (at least compared to, say, the way things worked in DoomEd). Remember, we're talking about the early days.

 

However, a lot of newer editors are based off of those early editors (as Printz actually said, had I read more carefully before responding), so it's not too surprising that they could still inherit the flaws. With regard to Eureka, it's based on Yadex, which is based on DEU.

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