Suggestion to the Doom Speedrunning community

[Dokta Whawee]

5 hours ago, Bob9001 said:

 

I have to disagree with this, every year someone manages to beat an old record(s).

 

Why do you think this?

 

Eh, I kind of changed my mind on this one, too. At the time I was looking at some of the records, such as E1M1, which are basically the human limit. Looking back, there are some which could use quite a bit of improvement!

[GoneAway]

43 minutes ago, Dokta Whawee said:

Eh, I kind of changed my mind on this one, too. At the time I was looking at some of the records, such as E1M1, which are basically the human limit. Looking back, there are some which could use quite a bit of improvement!

Not everyone will agree with me, but I see the improvement of e1m1 to 8s in particular as one of the true, culminating achievements in doom speedrunning that is actually within our grasp.

 

I think shockblast could do it, but only with an extended, concerted effort (I forget his exact pb from when he tried it before, low 9.1x?).

 

Not really in the scope of this thread but the main thing new runners lack, in my experience, is ambition. People like zeromaster don't let human limits or impossibilities hold them back, and look at the results 😃

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, kraflab said:

Not really in the scope of this thread but the main thing new runners lack, in my experience, is ambition.

 

Replied to the previous one first: I think Twitch only cut out audios due to copyright stuff, but still it's a very annoying when this happens. Therefore, I pretty much agree with the storage problem.

 

I hope you don't mind I wanted to talk about something previously happened. The first time you quoted me is that I suggested posting *.zip files should follow the naming rules. The reason for saying that is if everyone is naming the *.zip files whatever they want, it adds some extra work for Andy to do things. Then you replied to me, saying "DSDA is an archive, not a rule book". I actually didn't know how I felt about that. After talking about BtSX runs later, I felt that previous one was a misunderstanding, or probably I missed something you wanted to express. I hope this can clear this thing a bit.

 

Then, talking about ambition, most of the time for me, I don't want to touch those IWAD records because it's too difficult. I think due to the higher popularity of IWADs, these runs are usually more polished than PWADs. Probably for a newcomer, trying to do some other runs could be more beneficial to most of the things. Sometimes I joked about putting 10 hours into a certain run but the results being not so good. However, I definitely know runners put countless hours into those record runs, so 10 hours are not even a thing.

 

Extra: I would say if you don't like the current rules, probably just do whatever you want and don't question it. If you like it, do it following the rules. Otherwise, just don't question. Just like, random person came out and said "not having 100% item is not a UV Max, real UV Max should have 100% everything". That would be a funny thing because I actually saw somebody proposed this. Still, I think Doom is less likely to have these problems. For some other games, maybe the JP version and the EN version are different from each other, so the leaderboard only accepts a certain version, but I've seen players argued about this, such as Chinese players being obnoxious about not playing games without Chinese translation.

Edited August 3, 2018 by GarrettChan

[Nine Inch Heels]

The thing about doing stuff how you like is all fine and whatnot... On paper. The whole thing falls apart the moment you examine what manner of result has been achieved under what circumstances. No matter how ambitious or competitive a runner is or not, as long as the circumstances under which a given run came to be differ from the circumstances of the majority of other recorded demos, the more likely the run will be subjected to scrutiny by informed members of the community. To give one example: Any tyson recorded on ZDoom (without there being a strict requirement to use a ZDoom derivative port) is lightyears less skill intense than a run recorded on PrBoom+, and we know that it's the ZDoom hitboxes that are the major advantage here. In my personal opinion, any run recorded on a ZDoom derivative sourceport should get a special annotation on the DSDA to make it clear that these runs don't compete with PrBoom+ runs, assuming that the WAD in question could have been played with either source port for that matter.

 

What people do at their leisure is none of anybody's business, but the moment people want to participate in something that has established standards, those standards matter, because you don't participate in the tour de France on a Hayabusa motorcycle. Simple as that.

[GarrettChan]

12 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

(ZDoom)

Agree with this. I tried to punch a Cyberdemon on GZDoom, and it's so easy because even hitting the corner of the collision box counts. Also, it's very frustrated that someone put up a record that uses a certain version of GZDoom, and it feels like "I don't want you to know my secret, so I used GZDoom in order to prevent you watching it"...

[Nine Inch Heels]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

Also, it's very frustrated that someone put up a record that uses a certain version of GZDoom, and it feels like "I don't want you to know my secret, so I used GZDoom in order to prevent you watching it"...

Link?

[GoneAway]

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

Then, talking about ambition, most of the time for me, I don't want to touch those IWAD records because it's too difficult. I think due to the higher popularity of IWADs, these runs are usually more polished than PWADs. Probably for a newcomer, trying to do some other runs could be more beneficial to most of the things.

Not sure how it came off, but I meant that lots of new runners have more potential and skill than they give themselves credit for. Sometimes a change in mindset can go a long way; that's what I meant about having more ambition. I agree that it's more beneficial for newcomers to route and run things that no one has done yet, but it's also positive to look at some of the iwad runs and think "I could beat that."

 

I'm not sure what you meant about the "dsda is an archive, not a rule book" thing. I did a search of that and it looks like the context was about whether "uv fast" or "uv-fast" is the proper syntax? That is a running meme in the discord, so it wasn't a particularly serious comment, although I do stand by it. 😃

[rehelekretep]

uV -faSt actually

[Dokta Whawee]

47 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Not sure how it came off, but I meant that lots of new runners have more potential and skill than they give themselves credit for. Sometimes a change in mindset can go a long way; that's what I meant about having more ambition. I agree that it's more beneficial for newcomers to route and run things that no one has done yet, but it's also positive to look at some of the iwad runs and think "I could beat that."

 

I'm not sure what you meant about the "dsda is an archive, not a rule book" thing. I did a search of that and it looks like the context was about whether "uv fast" or "uv-fast" is the proper syntax? That is a running meme in the discord, so it wasn't a particularly serious comment, although I do stand by it. 😃

I would be more than happy to try to beat them myself!

[Dokta Whawee]

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The thing about doing stuff how you like is all fine and whatnot... On paper. The whole thing falls apart the moment you examine what manner of result has been achieved under what circumstances. No matter how ambitious or competitive a runner is or not, as long as the circumstances under which a given run came to be differ from the circumstances of the majority of other recorded demos, the more likely the run will be subjected to scrutiny by informed members of the community. To give one example: Any tyson recorded on ZDoom (without there being a strict requirement to use a ZDoom derivative port) is lightyears less skill intense than a run recorded on PrBoom+, and we know that it's the ZDoom hitboxes that are the major advantage here. In my personal opinion, any run recorded on a ZDoom derivative sourceport should get a special annotation on the DSDA to make it clear that these runs don't compete with PrBoom+ runs, assuming that the WAD in question could have been played with either source port for that matter.

 

What people do at their leisure is none of anybody's business, but the moment people want to participate in something that has established standards, those standards matter, because you don't participate in the tour de France on a Hayabusa motorcycle. Simple as that.

Well, of course. I see what your saying. The problem is that I don't mean to be "participating in the tour-de-France on a Hayabusa motorcycle". What I wanted to see was a completely different catagory to appeal to a completely different type of runner. So, instead of participating in the tour-de-france with a motorcycle, you would be participating in a motercycle race with a motorcycle, if you know what I mean.

 

So, both of them would be different events, so to speak, while still having the same goal: Win the Race. Of course, though, I do get what you mean. But do remember, the idea I had would be in a different category entirely.

 

So, I want to hear your opinion:

 

If it was in a different category, do you still think it would be a bad idea?

[GoneAway]

It's not about the category being a good or bad idea. We don't have a hard set list of categories and we don't discourage anyone from running anything they want. Example fun categories: ballerina / tornado, sightseer, pacifist respawn, anti-sherlock 😃

 

The closest thing to an "official" category list is what dsda shows, but this is just how Andy organizes things. I wanted nomo100s (-nomonsters, 100% secrets) to be an "official" category so we did a full table of runs for perdgate, which led Andy to make it a separate category on dsda, and some other people have started recording for this as well.

 

If you take something seriously, other people will too, and I think that applies to most games / communities. (I can't imagine jump demos getting a distinction on dsda besides "other" but don't let that stop you.)

[Nine Inch Heels]

11 minutes ago, Dokta Whawee said:

Well, of course. I see what your saying. The problem is that I don't mean to be "participating in the tour-de-France on a Hayabusa motorcycle". What I wanted to see was a completely different catagory to appeal to a completely different type of runner. So, instead of participating in the tour-de-france with a motorcycle, you would be participating in a motercycle race with a motorcycle, if you know what I mean.

The post you qouted adressed something GarrettChan said.

12 minutes ago, Dokta Whawee said:

If it was in a different category, do you still think it would be a bad idea?

I'm less optimistic than Kraflab. It is bound to fail in the long run, because GZDoom is not a source port that cares about demo compatibility at all. As it stands that port gets a new version every other month or so. So for every demo you record, you need to keep the bloody source port around to be able to even watch the thing in the first place. Watching a 5 year old demo in GZDoom? Not going to happen unless you have the exact same version of GZDoom installed. That's why speedrunning anything GZDoom is a niche of a niche of a niche and anything but a stable experience. Why would anybody deliver well optimized demos when the source port devs regularly burn the historical records, for lack of a better expression? If that ever gets off the ground, then it's probably a "meme-category" of sorts, that aims to showcase how you can break old stuff with new tools. As far as I'm concerned there is no value in that, aside of maybe some giggles here and there. But if that's what you're looking for, might as well do it in private, or with a few others who are interested, and see where it goes.

 

GZDoom is an incredible platform for modders, people who have a fetish for hyper detailed maps, and the normal every day pleb who just wants to fire up a map without having to worry too much about format-compatibilities, but it basically disappoints in every other respect.

[Dokta Whawee]

1 minute ago, kraflab said:

It's not about the category being a good or bad idea. We don't have a hard set list of categories and we don't discourage anyone from running anything they want. Example fun categories: ballerina / tornado, sightseer, pacifist respawn, anti-sherlock 😃

 

The closest thing to an "official" category list is what dsda shows, but this is just how Andy organizes things. I wanted nomo100s (-nomonsters, 100% secrets) to be an "official" category so we did a full table of runs for perdgate, which led Andy to make it a separate category on dsda, and some other people have started recording for this as well.

 

If you take something seriously, other people will too, and I think that applies to most games / communities. (I can't imagine jump demos getting a distinction on dsda besides "other" but don't let that stop you.)

Alright, I see. Thank you!

 

In hindsight, some of this was on my behalf: I should have done a bit more research into this aspect of the community... I thought I knew a lot, but apparently, I didn't. Oh well, that doesn't really matter.

[Dokta Whawee]

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

That's why speedrunning anything GZDoom is a niche of a niche of a niche and anything but a stable experience. Why would anybody deliver well optimized demos when the source port devs regularly burn the historical records, for lack of a better expression?

You are right. I always wondered why I couldn't play GZDoom Demos properly...

 

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If that ever gets off the ground, then it's probably a "meme-category" of sorts, that aims to showcase how you can break old stuff with new tools.

Yeah, that is a good point!

 

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

As far as I'm concerned there is no value in that, aside of maybe some giggles here and there.

Well I, personally, do see a bit more value, but that is just me being a bit of an "Under-The-Hood" kind of player... And I know that only a few others are.

 

9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

But if that's what you're looking for, might as well do it in private, or with a few others who are interested, and see where it goes.

That's actually a really good idea! Thank you for suggesting to me!

 

Also, sorry if I sounded a bit upset in my earlier posts... I completely missunderstood some of the things you said.

[rehelekretep]

whats anti-sherlock? complete a uv-max without getting the secrets? 🤔

[GoneAway]

3 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

whats anti-sherlock? complete a uv-max without getting the secrets? 🤔

UV0S, which would be the same as UV Speed in many cases, but an interesting challenge / distinction in routing for others.

[rehelekretep]

oooh nais

i propose uv idiot which is uv max but you dont find or use any secrets

[Bob9001]

Well awhile ago I did think that, UV-Max was just 100% kills and any % secret.

[rehelekretep]

the one i commonly see is people thinking you need 100% secrets on tyson runs

[Beginner]

1 hour ago, rehelekretep said:

oooh nais

i propose uv idiot which is uv max but you dont find or use any secrets

I think I've seen demo like that except it's category name was less derogatory to the player.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Beginner

[4shockblast]

17 minutes ago, Beginner said:

I think I've seen demo like that except it's category name was less derogatory to the player.

I think UV Speedfighter is slightly different in that it enforces that all demos are below the par time (so it's actually as many kills as you can get, not necessarily all of them).

[GarrettChan]

 

5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Link?

It's about sihr2 Map32, but it's not particularly serious though, and I finally managed to beat that. I think the version that person used could be found on DSDA. Probably my thing is more like an assumption, like somebody using a weird version of GZDoom and not being able to find that to play the demo properly.

 

4 hours ago, kraflab said:

(stuff)

Yeah, it's about "UV -Fast" or "UV -fast", and eventually I was talking about naming according to other files, IRC. Thing is that on the front page of DSDA, it puts UV Fast, but in the tables, it puts UV -Fast, so I guess what you said definitely make sense in this particular problem. This talk cleared my mind, which is good.

 

Then the ambitious thing, probably I'm a person who is not very confident about things, so I wouldn't think I can beat a record for a popular IWAD or something. Still, I definitely agree with your point that it's very beneficial to look at these demos where you can learn stuff, or you may discover something not optimized from time to time.

 

2 hours ago, rehelekretep said:

the one i commonly see is people thinking you need 100% secrets on tyson runs

TBH, I feel like people would more easily think UV Tyson doesn't require 100% kills (or you're only allowed to use your fist) though... at least that's what I first thought, but luckily I didn't do any stupid like posting a Tyson run without 100% kills.

Edited August 4, 2018 by GarrettChan

[Grazza]

I have always found Tyson not needing 100% secrets to be very logical. After all, many secrets feature the bigger weapons and/or ammo for them, so while they are relevant in most Max runs, in a Tyson they may be pointless detours. And in those maps where Max involves heavy use of weapons 1 and 2, it provides a way for these two categories to be a little more distinct. However, as I understand it, none of that was the reason for the rule.

 

There are of course a lot of possible alternative categories besides the standard ones. Some natural and applicable to most maps but that never caught on (HMP Max, where are you?), and others quirky and inappropriate except on particular maps (e.g., ITYTD -respawn -fast Lewis Crab or my favourite, UV-Stuck). All are and have always been welcome in this forum, as are any port demos that people care to record. It's only bad attitudes that are unwelcome.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Grazza

[GoneAway]

6 hours ago, Grazza said:

ITYTD -respawn -fast

We've done some really fun wad races in the discord with this setting (NM Lite), and it's been pretty interesting, although naturally a mixed bag.

[rehelekretep]

damn you kids and your "Discords" >.<

[Grazza]

7 hours ago, kraflab said:

We've done some really fun wad races in the discord with this setting (NM Lite), and it's been pretty interesting, although naturally a mixed bag.

I did actually say "ITYTD -respawn -fast Lewis Crab", so that's also using just weapon 1 and with no forward or backward movement. I also had in mind that it would be like a Respawn in terms of needing 100% kills and secrets.

 

But it's nice to hear that the rather more standard category NM Lite is getting a little attention. NM Lite should of course be feasible on the vast majority of maps.

[GoneAway]

Ah, thought there was a missing comma there 😂

[Grain of Salt]

Maxes without 100% secrets (maybe strictly 0% secrets?) and 100% item runs are things I'd like to see more of.

[rehelekretep]

yeah, uv idiot!

item runs: no!

[Grain of Salt]

Item runs yes!