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Tango

How many more maps would you have released if you lowered your standards a bit?

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Maps started in last 5 years: ~70, I think

Maps released in last 5 years: 3

 

:'D

 

Also, Tango release the maps. Make a megatangowad.

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God dammit you're right, it's high time Tango TV stopped delaying interviews to negotiate a televisual component for its broadcasts while doggedly holding onto this title. Think of all the progress that could have been made if it was just Doom Radio!

 

Interviews conducted by the only Doom podcast with two names: ~80

Of those interviews, on television: 0

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 I Dont Make Maps D: I want create some maps, but seems hard :"v

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I'm definitely guilty of setting the bar way high for my own work. Exhibit A: In 17 years of making maps I have NEVER released anything. Not a single map to the public. Now this will glaring blight on my life will hopefully amended in the not too distant future but I'm not sure that I'm actually capable of mapping any other way than I do. I like obsessing over detail and texture choice. Using 0.5 increments to offset textures to make them line up after rotating them to an odd angle is my idea of fun (yes I'm weird). Fully  cognizant of the fact that almost no one will notice that level of detail but if I don't it will bother me.

 

My other issue is that as I keep making maps, I get better, techniques get refined and my internal aesthetic develops further. I then go back to look at earlier work and think "eww" and go around improving everything. That was what stopped me from releasing maps in the past, trapped in a never ending spiral of refinement and obsessive tweaking. Now that I've got people pushing me to get something, nay, ANYTHING released I have an external pressure (which I respond to well) to drive me to releasing maps, I will limit myself when "proof reading" earlier work.

 

TL;DR

 

maps started over last 20 years: 50+

maps released: a big fat zero

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Probably not that many, to be honest.  I've certainly started several that I never released, but very few that reached anything approaching "complete" status didn't see the light of day.

 

I think not releasing maps where only half the layout is done and there are still a bunch of missing textures is the right call :)

 

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I don't push myself for crazy detail but even if I did lower standards, it would just be a handful more.

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Approximately one hundred thousand million levels spanning many games.

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None, really.  I try to see all my maps through to the very end and adjust them where they need adjusting. 

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I think speedmapping helps a lot. Usually players don't have high expectations when it comes to those sets, and seems like a fun way to challenge mapping abilities!  Though haven't been able to try it myself heh

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So, I am doing my very first map right now and I am already in the "detailing trap" and just realized how much time it takes. Yet, I want to finish this now, but my next map will be something simpler, to explore more base mechanics of map layout and monster placement, I guess. I did not expect mapping to take up sooo much time.

 

Regarding the question, if one should lower his standards a bit from time to time, my opinion is: Yes. People tend to get very perfectionistic about their own creations, but sometimes you should just release something to a) just have some fun with it b) let other people have fun with it and c) generally just practise. That doesn't mean constantly churning out bad quality maps (or any creative works actually), yet it can help with getting the creative juices flowing, letting go of mental restrictions or conventions as well as discovering new aspects of your art / map.

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Posted (edited)

I have a lot of unreleased maps that are sitting in unfinished projects needing more maps. I have a ton of maps and projects sitting somewhere between "somewhat finished" and "barely started". Let's just say that I would have been releasing at least three projects of varying size each year from 2016 to now, if I were able to see them through. Unfortunately that isn't the case and I haven't finished anything since 2015.

 

Maybe there will be something this year though? No idea!

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Definitely around 5 a year if everything was on the simple side and i was going for a E1M1 kinda thing. My curse is that i get pretty specific ideas in my head and i try to execute them perfectly. I doesn't help that i erase / restructure a lot of stuff that i create as well as the fact that I'm a "Sunday afternoon mapper" : - i just chip away on a map bit by bit here and there with no deadline in sight. I couldn't speedmap to save my life. I'm starting to consider trying though, I've heard that speedmapping can really improve your mapping style and productivity. 

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2 hours ago, Gaia74 said:

 I Dont Make Maps D: I want create some maps, but seems hard :"v

OMG please give it a shot! You don't know how fun and rewarding it can be. Don't believe that you can't do it or have nothing to offer. I was in the same boat for years but a few YouTube videos changed my perspective and i started mapping. I'm a nooby amateur who makes maps really slowly but it's a fun, creative process and learning the nuts and bolts of it all is interesting, especially when folks on Doomworld help you out. 

Just learn a few mapping basics on YouTube or here and start off building something simple like in Doom or Doom II. There are plenty of tutorials here and on YouTube. Don't compare your map to some of the best out there, the fancy things people do with maps are mind-blowing and intimidating but i believe all a really good map needs is a good design and Doom2.wad. LOL If it's fun, it's good. 

Everyone's got a unique style, so give it a shot and show us what you've got ; )

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Posted (edited)

Not everyone has a talent for mapping. Even when you have a lot motivation but no talent, it's a dead-end way. Not only a mapper's block.

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18 minutes ago, PeterMoro said:

I've heard that speedmapping can really improve your mapping style and productivity. 

 

It's also just plain fun.  Especially if @Alfonzo is there because his ever-increasing panic as the clock runs down is endlessly amusing :)

 

But yeah, there is something about the combination of a tight timeframe and a specific design requirement you have to meet that tends to really get the mapping flowing.

 

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I'm convinced that I haven't actually made a speedmap, yet. I just make stuff at my normal slow pace and cut the string at "strategic" moments in time (read: when the panic sets in).

 

Willing myself to go faster as the deadline approaches is like trying to telekinetically move driftwood in an almost still pond. It will bump up against the bank eventually... but all that fevered concentration is really just wasted energy.

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You described what happened to me (or happens as it is an ongoing problem with perfectionism).  I have roughly 6 partially completed maps dating back to '99 that have been on hold for various reasons.   Three of these I've been actively working on for the past five years with little to show for it.  This is mostly my own fault, as my spare time has been divided repeatedly between other hobbies for a few years now; but even if I didn't have the other hobbies, at most I would have finished maybe one of the six maps.   

 

So to fight this productivity problem, I ended up joining three deathmatch projects just to get back into editing, learn the new tools and to get an idea of what's going on in the Doom scene.  I made three or four maps, made new friends and had some fun then went back to my old maps and the "big project".   Another year goes by and I realize that I need to do something from scratch; none of the old maps meet my new standards or the community's standards.   (is it really the community's standards or my perception of what the community's standard is?)   Progress is slow, but I eventually finish it.  It feels great having released something for single player after all these years.

 

So what happens next?   I go back to one of the old maps.   Initially it's great, things are flowing and everything is exciting; then the magic wears off and you realize that you just went back to your ex. and all the old problems are still there.    Reworking old maps is damn hard I'm finding out, I almost have to cut half the map to meet my current standards; realistically it would be quicker for me to make something new but I'm emotionally attached the work I did previously.  (besides, there's legitimately good stuff in there).   

 

This is why I think things like coffee break and demonfear are genius.   They're bite-sized maps of awesomeness.   I'd love to be able to get to point where I'm okay making a small map again.   

 

I don't think I answered any of your questions....but thanks for letting me ramble.

 

 

 

 

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I honestly don't know because whatever I start, I finish (...at some point?), save for some ACS tests here and there.

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I haven't made jack shit for over a year now primarily because of the "there's enough stuff of this quality or better" mentality. I don't exactly like it, but I can't seem to shake it. Why make Doomkid's Deathmatch 5 when there's better DM turf out there anyway? Why bother making yet another vanilla mapset?

 

I would like to just revert to not giving 2 shits and slamming down loads of lines in Doom Builder til I'm suddenly sitting on a complete wad ready for release, but the drive to do so is just not there, primarily due to me finally (unintentionally) setting some kind of standard of quality. Piece of crap mentality that totally backfired.

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This topic strikes a nerve with me. I feel like I haven't been finishing a lot of what I start for a decade and I'm always struggling to justify it to myself. Realistically, I could just be losing interest because I've achieved whatever the base idea was and can't be bothered to fill out the rest of the map to make something I can release.

 

More likely, though, I suspect there is a bit of this going on. I definitely haven't gotten round to Escalation III and Bigger Woodchip because I feel like I nailed the ones they're meant to be sequels to. What if the sequel is inferior? In reality, nobody cares, but in my head it's a big deal. That weight of expectation probably killed Virus E2 and further Tiny Pack maps as well.

 

My two large in-progress projects are probably suffering from this too, as are a lot of smaller ones. I feel like speed maps and the occasional community project rush job are all I actually finish, due to the low expectations that come with it...

 

I wonder if it's possible to break this mindset, recapture the ability to just make stuff because it's fun and then drop stuff out... Without resorting to novelty approaches and speed maps.

 

 

Hell, come to think of it, I'm putting off a 4-hour speed map because I'm worried my 2 hour ones will be better. Now the thought is in my head, I'm actually in a minor panic at my creative cowardice.

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i started mapping  in 2016 (8 maps that i just made for my brother) and right now i am continuing the wad because i decided to release it somehow. The point is, i am not good at detailing, i am not good at realistic spaces, i just like to imagine and to create. I think that at this point (in 2018) we have seen many many overdetailed maps with no gameplay at all, and yes i really liked many of those and i really like when i see well placed lights and perfect buildings etc etc, but i still prefere the flow in Scythe for example. If i am searching for details i play another game. As a gamer, after playing tons and tons of wads here and there, i decided that i am searching for simplicity or atmosphere, or both. That is way i am trying to do that on the wad that i am working on. Once i will create the maps and once they will be playable to a large extent i will release a first version, and just later i will think of a possible restyiling and redetailing to make them visually perfect. Time goes fast and in the meantime your ideas may get old and detailing becomes better and better, so there's nothing to lose if you release unclean maps.

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I've released pretty much everything that reached a playable state (working triggers and at least rudimentary gameplay).

 

I abandoned a lot of maps but I'm not sure if that's because of high standards (I have many crap releases) or just lack of interest.

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Echoing @Memfis here, I pretty much released everything I ever finished (aside from my earliest maps, you're only missing about five poor maps there) with no after-the-fact quality control.

That doesn't mean I don't generate a billion 'scraps' in the process, either to be pasted into maps where they'll fit or left to just be singular rooms and sections I may never do anything with.

So I guess if I relaxed my standards a bit, same result really.

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Posted (edited)

Likewise for me, I rarely / never scrap any maps. They almost always see the light of day, and those that haven't yet been released will be eventually, whenever my attention turns back to them. (Like that silly Spyro map experiment I did, heh).

 

The main reason it may appear I'm lacking on releases compared to publicly shared screenshots is that most of my maps belong in full megawads, or are tied up in currently unreleased community projects - for example, Joy of Mapping 5 (which I'll be helping get released very soon, for what it's worth).

 

Now if only Joel would get around to playing my map I'd be happy to release Order of the Odonata... Grumble, grumble...

Edited by Dragonfly : I overused commas, gross!

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A lot of maps, bit's of maps, TC's etc.

 

I've been told I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

 

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I also pretty much release anything I create. Still, back in 2006, when I started messing with Doom Builder, there were some projects that never saw the daylight, but at that time I didn't even knew Doomworld (nor I knew to write/read in english). My very first levels ended up being an unfinished wad called Eclipse, which much later on I released on /idgames, and then I worked them again (with the exception of the final boss level) with some newer stuff to create Moonblood.

 

Still, from the stuff I never released, I remember a 3 map-long wad with very easy difficult and short levels with some castle theme using the Plutonia texture set. Also, after "finishing" Eclipse, I decided to make a "prequel" with some unreal textures (ruins) and trees, which would be the Eclipse I. I ended creating 9 or 10 fairly large maps, but forgot to backup it and now I've only got 3 levels, where one of them was released as secret level of Nevasca, and the other two I'll probably release as secret levels for a future project.

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I started mapping in 2014, making my first attempts at the Serious Editor. For various reasons, then it seemed to me too complicated and unstable (my first map, which I enthusiastically did 3-4 hours flew into the abyss, which made me very upset). I began to look for something simpler and switched to another favorite universe - Doom. I made my first map under the impression of Speed of Doom (it seemed to me that it looks like it), for almost a year ... very slowly. I did not strive to achieve mastery quickly, I just enjoyed learning the features of different ports. Various experiments left behind unfinished maps, which I later combined into one giant map - Complex 502 "Descent". Here I have already started to get sick with perfectionism, because all the years of project development, it was constantly being altered. By that time, I had already become acquainted with the work of Mechadon and Dobu Gabu Maru and I really wanted to learn to do something similar, especially since their Boom maps looked better than my early works in GZDoom. In the end, I'm just tired of chasing the "ideal", which became completely unreachable. In addition, the project began to generate lags and GZDB crashes, due to errors in the formation of portals in huge areas and overall giant count of sectors...

 

The development of one large map exhausted me very much and the project was abandoned. I found a way out, by participating in any community projects. Then I had a new "obsession" - I can not miss any. In 2016 and the 17th I wanted to participate literally wherever time allowed (mostly on SeriousSite). I was working in hurry, but nevertheless it turned out well. Since feedback on the works was positive, it motivated to take a part in new CP's. The year 2017 was very exhausting in this relation and I decided that in 2018 I will take a great rest from the mapping ...

 

Well... Already passed half of the 2018 for which I managed to finish 2 GZDoom maps, 1 map for Serious Sam .. and in the plans for more ... Eviternity, NOVA III, DMP, Omega, Doom RPG Remake Project, Infernew ... and map for contest on serioussite.ru ... How good that I have not yet joined Quake, Half-Life, Unreal, Painkiller and Stalker communities :3 (and this day will come), because that all my free time will evaporates.

 

Today I planned to complete (hopefully) a map for the Infernew project. For me it was a pleasant discovery to work in vanilla limits, without overdetail. But even working on this simple map I'm almost unconsciously stretching time... I run Nestopia and playing some ROM's hour or two ... or just procrastinating by any other way (typing this wall of text, for example), but not working on my map...

 

I have almost no unfinished projects (only 3 maps), but I feel I'm spending too much time on CP's, which is putting off release of my own works. And I too much addicted on details. I need to do something with this.  In general, I will have to keep in order my ambitions ... I'm just making sure that in 2019 I will take a great vacation from mapping ... for sure, I swear ...

 

Statictics: [2018, august]


 

Spoiler

Doom \ Doom 2:
> Released maps: 11
> Maps in develop: 6
> Abandoned maps: 3

 

Serious Sam:

> Released maps: 5

> Maps in develop: 1

> Abandoned maps: 1

 

Serious Sam's Bogus Detour:

> Released maps: 1
> Abandoned maps: 1

 

Edited by StormCatcher.77

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9 hours ago, PeterMoro said:

OMG please give it a shot! You don't know how fun and rewarding it can be. Don't believe that you can't do it or have nothing to offer. I was in the same boat for years but a few YouTube videos changed my perspective and i started mapping. I'm a nooby amateur who makes maps really slowly but it's a fun, creative process and learning the nuts and bolts of it all is interesting, especially when folks on Doomworld help you out. 

 Just learn a few mapping basics on YouTube or here and start off building something simple like in Doom or Doom II. There are plenty of tutorials here and on YouTube. Don't compare your map to some of the best out there, the fancy things people do with maps are mind-blowing and intimidating but i believe all a really good map needs is a good design and Doom2.wad. LOL If it's fun, it's good. 

Everyone's got a unique style, so give it a shot and show us what you've got ; )

ok!, i go to try

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Posted (edited)

I fall into the "always released everything" camp, but I wonder if it's down to people's specific processes. I've abandoned hundreds of ideas in my head, but only when I was confident in one would I actually start creating it.

 

I'm an incredibly slow mapper, even simple maps take me hundreds of hours, most of which is spent just gazing at the screen thinking. But it means that not only do I always make maps I'm more or less happy with, I very rarely even delete sectors.  

 

I suspect other people though use GZDB as basically a sketch pad, to try out ideas to see if they work.  So naturally you're going to go through a bunch of stuff you don't like.

 

Maps started: 9

Maps released (or in forthcoming megawads): 9

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