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DooM_RO

Are Id reluctant to (re)introduce certain enemy types?

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Posted (edited)

So something I noticed in 2016 as well as Eternal is that suppression enemies such as the Mancubus and Arachnatron are no longer suppression enemies. Meaning they no longer fire a volley of dangerous projectiles. Instead, they use similar attacks but in much shorter bursts. Another thing I noticed is that they don't want to introduce fragile but deadly hitscanner enemies such as the classic Sergrant or Chaingunner. I think the best classic FPSes have a combination of projectile, melee and hitscanner attackers, all of which are perfectly balanced. I think that in an FPS of this type the hitscanners are the hardest of the three types to balance.

 

One of my theories is that this is due to the consoles. I think the super-fast speed of classic Doom would be awkward on a console. In order to deal with these kinds of enemies (including suppressors), you need to have a really high speed and both 2016 and Eternal are slower than the originals, even with all the upgrades. In fact Eternal seems slower than even 2016, though I could be wrong. Think about it. In Classic Doom, when you see a Sergeant/Chaingunner that just about to fire upon you and you don't have time/the means to kill them, you often rush to the nearest pillar. Could this be done with Eternal's speed?

 

Hitscanners and Suppressors are important because they basically lock certain areas that could contain valuable ammo or a keycard. Plus, they add variety to the gameplay.

 

Do you guys still think hitscanners could be implemented in the modern Doom games?

 

 

Edited by DooM_RO

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Posted (edited)

If hitscan = demon fires, it hits you always, then no.  I don't think any game needs a insta damage mechanic if it doesn't cost quarter$.

 

Suppressors would just cause lots of infighting.  But I might like that.

Edited by Zemini

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I'm not sure hitscan enemies would work that well with the NU Doom series' gameplay style outside of something like the Doom 2016 Hell Razer (which suffers the weakness of coming across like it's drunk, which makes it kinda unintentionally funny) - I even have reservations about the Possessed Security dudes (the second "Hitscan" enemy in Doom 2016), because these guys can suddenly round a corner and smack you with a facefull o' hurting lead without you being able to do much about it, which can be mildly frustrating at times.

 

I get the sense that hitscanners are largely absent from Doom 2016 (and it would appear, Doom Eternal) for a very good reason; the devs probably tested hitscanners intensively while Doom 2016 was in development and ultimately figured that it broke the flow of combat or the like.

 

Admittedly, I do miss the classic shotgunners and Chaingunners (a zombified dude wielding a massive chaingun is always a sight to behold), but I can kinda see why they wouldn't work so well in the new games, so I'm leaning towards just accepting it.

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If a hitscan enemy were to be reintroduced, they would have to be dumbed down for the sake of balance. In the classic games, all the hitscan type enemies had very little health and often times had trouble tracking the player (especially the Zombieman). With the new games' emphasis on the glory kill system, and the enemies have a fair amount of health in general, the two systems would be incompatible with each other without a lot of compromises.

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30 minutes ago, Resigned_34 said:

If a hitscan enemy were to be reintroduced, they would have to be dumbed down for the sake of balance. In the classic games, all the hitscan type enemies had very little health and often times had trouble tracking the player (especially the Zombieman). With the new games' emphasis on the glory kill system, and the enemies have a fair amount of health in general, the two systems would be incompatible with each other without a lot of compromises.

 

In this kind of game, hitscanner enemies only work if they have low health. Anything more than a Shotgun blast is too much. They are basically glass cannons.

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The best solution I can come up with would be a targeting laser the hitscanner points at you, signaling that it's about to shoot. In a low pressure situation it would be easy to dodge, but when things are crazy it's just one more thing you have to try to deal with.

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Posted (edited)

Hitscanners don't mesh well with "push forward combat," since you can't dodge an invisible line. It forces the player into cover, defeating the purpose of an aggressive play style, which the devs are going for. In fact, the game punishes you for taking cover by keeping recovery items out of your hands. Need more heath? Get out there and go get it. The thought of introducing hitscanners back into the mix feels downright antithetical. 

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56 minutes ago, silentzorah said:

Hitscanners don't mesh well with "push forward combat," since you can't dodge an invisible line. It forces the player into cover, defeating the purpose of an aggressive play style, which the devs are going for. In fact, the game punishes you for taking cover by keeping recovery items out of your hands. Need more heath? Get out there and go get it. The thought of introducing hitscanners back into the mix feels downright antithetical. 

 

Not really, they just force the player to focus on them. That's kind of their point. However, it only works if they have low health like in the originals.

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On 8/12/2018 at 1:33 AM, DooM_RO said:

One of my theories is that this is due to the consoles. I think the super-fast speed of classic Doom would be awkward on a console. In order to deal with these kinds of enemies (including suppressors), you need to have a really high speed and both 2016 and Eternal are slower than the originals, even with all the upgrades.

There are several reknowned speedrunners in this community who play classic doom keyboard only, meaning slower turn rates than you would achieve with a mouse, and they don't seem to have any issues whatsoever with abundant hitscans, or very fast movement and such.

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I changed my mind.  I want to see Shotgun and Chaingun hell Soldier variants in Doom Eternal.  Just make sure they look different visually.  And please no damn shield.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/12/2018 at 3:33 AM, DooM_RO said:

... both 2016 and Eternal are slower than the originals ...

 

Offtopic but: I played Doom as a teenager since it came out in 93. Played Wolf3D before that, and played mostly every FPS after that in the 90s and I keep playing them, and I still don't understand what people mean when they say that the original Dooms' gameplay was fast (even faster than Doom 2016 (???))

But nevermind me :)

Edited by jupiter_ex : spelling

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Because people focus too much on the movement speed of the player. The gameplay itself in DOOM4 is extremely fast and hectic compared to 1/2. The originals were veeery calm compared to that.

 

That's not what DooM_RO was talking about but I'm just answering the question here. :)

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Just give the zombie troopers rapid tracer projectiles dealing low damage but fired in bursts (assault rifle of some kind would work as would the D2016 burst rifle). It would certainly beat the pathetically easy to dodge plasma bursts.

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Hitscanning and fast combat just do not mix. It forces cover. Just like in Wolfenstein the New Order, all the hit scanning forces you to take cover and slow down, be methodical. It's fun but it's not what Doom is about.

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1 hour ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

Hitscanning and fast combat just do not mix. It forces cover. Just like in Wolfenstein the New Order, all the hit scanning forces you to take cover and slow down, be methodical. It's fun but it's not what Doom is about.

 

Really? Then why did classic Doom have Shotgunners and Chaingunners?

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Posted (edited)

need some hitscan machine/shotgun zombie gunners in this new DOOM for the laugh, especially playing on Ultra Violence+

Edited by Linheli

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2 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

Hitscanning and fast combat just do not mix. It forces cover. Just like in Wolfenstein the New Order, all the hit scanning forces you to take cover and slow down, be methodical. It's fun but it's not what Doom is about.

 

32 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

Really? Then why did classic Doom have Shotgunners and Chaingunners?

 

^ Yep.

 

Besides, at least in the classics it depends a lot on how they're used and how you approach them. Running into hitscanners doesn't always make you go "Mhm, hitscanners, where is some cover... *runs away* ".

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21 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

Really? Then why did classic Doom have Shotgunners and Chaingunners?

It seems to have worked in pseudo-3D but never seemed to translate well into full 3D games.

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On 8/22/2018 at 10:23 AM, DooM_RO said:

 

Really? Then why did classic Doom have Shotgunners and Chaingunners?

 

Level design was different. You had corridors instead of arenas. You had placed enemies instead of spwaning enemies (most of the cases).

 

Have a bunch of hitscanners spawn on your back and shoot at you before you can even see them is not funny. Also in original doom the combat is both circlestrafing, backpedaling and do a pop and shoot around the corners, when the level design permits. Doom 2016 combat is much more like "put a thumbtack on your s button and get in their face".

 

They can make soldiers deadly accurate but they just decided to not to.

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Posted (edited)

Target priority was the name of the game with classic hitscanners. They didn't fuck around; only troopers really had low danger-factor and even then are scary to fight en masse at low health in a way Imps never are. Sergeants can deal 45 damage if all three pellets hit and deal maximum damage; and since damage is entirely random (3-15 per pellet) and not decided by range, a lucky Sergeant can do this from across the map if the RNG blesses him.

 

Chaingunners fire just single shots- again, just 3-15 damage per shot- but can perforate you in five seconds or under, guaranteed. And all three of these had a shot dispersion of 22.5 degrees, which is frankly insanely inaccurate (godmode yourself and let a chaingunner open fire from medium distance, then turn around and look at the bullet holes).

 

Yet people don't have a problem with classic hitscanners unless they're making a ragepost on Doomworld after a random zombieman trolled their ironman attempt. Why? Because they're glass cannons that all go down in a single shotgun blast, save Chaingunners (who have a 50% chance of requiring another chip damage to kill them). Even in maps like TNT's MAP09, where there's a veritable army of zombies and you literally begin the map surrounded by troopers from covered firing positions, you can beat it just fine as long as you have a basic sense of stun locking, cover, and target prioritization.

 

Of course, this needs to be modified to fit nuDoom's push-forward combat. I personally think Brutal Doom's physical, bright, loud tracers are absolutely perfect for this, being just barely (in a nicely cinematic way) avoidable if you're moving at medium range, and only really "hitscan" at point blank (where the enemy will likely go for a gun-bash attack anyways). The Heavy Cannon itself seems to fire micro-missile/bullet hybrids with visible trails and travel speed, feeling like a WH40k bolter, so it would be perfect for that role; if too powerful, a weaker weapon can be substituted (a la how the possessed plasmaguns look different and are clearly weaker than the player's example).

 

A variant of possessed soldier toting a burst rifle or heavy cannon (possibly in his hands, too, not just melted into his arm), firing off bursts of 3-5 Heavy Cannon rounds (dealing say 8 damage per shot) and employing player-style frag grenades as a special attack, would be quite the interesting opponent to face, and would be a notable diversion from the vast majority of fodder enemies (being fast-moving projectile-spewing agile hordes). If that itself seems too horrible, he can also be made to have a poor sense of tracking, always firing at where you are rather than leading you (which would lead to nice scenes of barely juking tracers whipping by while closing in on the trooper to smash his head in). And to be honest I think it'd be hilarious if he was programmed to take cover only when fighting other monsters, leading to you interrupting a COD-esque demon shootout with your meathook, SSG, and ice-skate speed.

Edited by Rifle Infantry

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I remember several times playing classic DOOM where I had to take cover to avoid Zombieman gunfire and Arch-Vile flames and it made the game less fun to me. It made me wish that there were more times where I was just out in the open dancing around projectiles. Yeah, the Zombiemen don't have much health but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are still very likely to hit you if you're not taking cover or have extremely quick reflexes, plus you can be absolutely fucked if you're low on health and a Chaingunner is just around the corner.

 

I'm honestly glad that DOOM 2016 and by extension (seemingly) DOOM Eternal moved away from that.

 

 

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